I'm bent!

johneb

Pedelecer
Aug 3, 2013
72
1
#21
Thanks for the update. Yes, I'm also inclined to remain unelectrified until the spring, although I'm looking forward to seeing the new kit Woosh are bringing in at the end of the month, so may yet be tempted!

Look forward to hearing how your build evolves.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#22
Long end of season and no riding for a long time :(

Yesterday the man from China (La Poste) delivered my 11-40 wide range Sunrace cassette :) SOOOO!!! after much mucking about got it on and went out in the pouring rain to test it.

Lessons learnt:

Czech guys have very big dyno spanners! Getting the lock ring off led me to suspect that it had been torqued down by their representative on Iron Man... The cassette looks way better on the wheel than off where it looks silly big. And I got a black one to match the body color :cool:

I have an entry level Acera rear mech on my other bike, this one is a supposedly better Alivio. On the Acera when you turn the screws to adjust the cage it moves, visible to the eye. After much turning, reading the instructions on the Shimano site, removing 4 links from the chain which I had just extended because I had pushed the boom out and added some links for the increase from 32 to 40 as largest cog... Well I got it to move after releasing some shifter cable tension... Not quite 100% indexed but it shifts through all 8 gears on the two biggest chainwheels and shifts to low on the granny gear. Job to be finished! Very fiddly and not as user friendly as the Acera.

I put on a long rear mudguard. The short one is fine for summer showers, that is not what we are having at the moment... Of course it was set up for the first bike and the stainless stays have been shortened :eek: it rubs on the tyre... To be finished. (is there a pattern here?)

What is it like riding a recumbent in heavy rain? Well next time you take a shower lie down... Actually it isn't that bad and the rain pants worked and even the helmet visor did very well! Just need to lift it about a centimetre to let in more air to prevent fogging. And no worrying about the electrics! There are none :rolleyes:

Thinking ahead:

Nobody likes mucking about with PAS disks and there is always too much cable etc. etc....

While I was playing with the drive chain I had a good look at the chain idler and it is nice and thick... 12 holes drilled and some epoxy glue will make a very nice PAS real close to where I want to put the controller so no long cable run, no risk of kicking it, no removing the crank,...! Project: convert a chain idler into a PAS. Don't forget to put the magnets in backwards because the idler turns in the opposite direction to the pedals! :D

To be continued...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#23
Testing the gearing

So I am on holiday, the sun is out and the temperature is finally in the low 20s (C) I decided to see if I can master Saint Ignace without a motor. There really is something about riding through the Basque Country on a warm autumn day in a a deck chair... :cool:

to-zugarramurdi.png
Google says a cyclist can do this ride in 1:41 I did it in 2:00. I stopped in Sare to withdraw some cash for lunch so let's say 1:50 (I stretched my legs too), not to bad for an old guy out of training. The final is brutal with short climbs over 15%! :eek:

Lunch was great!

from-zugarramurdi.png
Then the fun bit. I still haven't taken the GPS with me (on purpose) so I don't know how fast I was going, fast enough to be jaw dropping for oncoming cars... I think that I may be a new card carrying member of the 50+ club :rolleyes: Brutal climb = brutal descent! I caught up with a few lycras but stopped to chat with a fishing buddy I saw on the way down so didn't stay with them. I must admit I used the brakes quite a bit and not only on the twisty bits.

Verdict:

My gear indexing sucks... :( This derailleur is a pain to get just right. I had to use 26:40 low gear more often than I would have liked but hey! I'm no longer 30 years old I'll just have to live with that.

This thing is going to be so much fun when I get a motor on it! Before adventuring further into Navarra it will need one, today I did the easy stuff... :eek:
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#24
Gears indexed finally. I have 18 gears out of 24 theoretical, the small chainwheel will not shift accurately up above 6th gear (chain too long) - I am not worried about this because the motor only has two chainwheels with 16 tooth difference vs 22 teeth difference with the triple.

Rear mudguard sorted just in time for rainy season. The mudguard came from the parts bin, it was the one on my first pedelec. I had cut the stainless stays shorter to hug the 1.95" Michelin and they were too short for the 2.15" Big Ben tyre. After much head scratching I used the stays from the front mudguard. I did try fitting the front mudguard on the rear but it was too short and I was getting splashes on my neck...

Missing/to do:

- the seat is now laid way back, I think I may need a neck rest.
- front mudguards would be a comfort thing. But I won't be able to store the trike folded where it is at the moment...
- rear b+m Secula mudguard light, battery powered. Two rear lights are better than one!
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#25
Rolled it... :oops:

Too fast in an off camber corner and it chucked me off. You don't fall very far, about 20 cm but I do have a bruise on my shoulder and a scuffed cycling jacket. No other damage than to my pride. :(
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,837
346
55
West Sx RH
#26
Did yo put shoulder pads on your Santa's xmas list as look like they will come in handy.
 
Oct 25, 2006
41,361
2,149
#27
Rolled it... :oops:

Too fast in an off camber corner and it chucked me off. You don't fall very far, about 20 cm but I do have a bruise on my shoulder and a scuffed cycling jacket. No other damage than to my pride. :(
Or ask Santa for a banking trike! :)
.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#29
Basically you fall on your shoulder, I try to ride lying down right side up :D. I fell on the one that is held together with a screw after a motorbike accident...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#30
OK so after rolling the trike I was having shifting problems. Dragged the lump back up to the third floor and set about indexing the gears (again).

First of all my downshift button for the rear derailleur was sticking. After checking cables and everything else I took the cover off and removed the sticky original grease and re-greased. Works fine with the cover off! As soon as you put the cover back on it sticks again, less than before. Maybe an encounter with a Dremel is in it's future?

Wasn't having much luck with the gears until I moved the boom out about 1 cm to fix my riding position a little. That helped the gears! So after tweaking the cable tension for ages I now have 24 working gears. Of course out on the road I don't use the big front cog with the big back cog or the little front cog with the little back cog but on the "bench" they work now.

Road test under brilliant sunshine with the hills capped with snow all around :) Some of the gears are a little noisier than I would like but in the extremes I don't use. Some of the changes aren't so hot, on the other hand the important ones in the middle of the range are so smooth and silent I though the shifter wasn't working!

Verdict: if you want to hone your derailleur tuning skills get a trike! Cable and chain tension is so fussy it isn't much fun :confused: Things should be much easier with 16 gears when I get the motor on.

The ride was kind of strange:

- lots of polite drivers! Giving right of way where it wasn't due!
- heaps of roadies most saying hello.
- lots of winter time cr@p on the side of the road, the inside of corners were OK but that was about the only place clean enough to leave some room for the cars
- started playing with different pressures in my "Made in Indonesia" tyres. Today was softer in the back for shock absorbing and harder in front for less rolling resistance. Seemed to work OK.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#31
You're right, I do disagree. It would make much more sense to get one of the 20 amp controllers, which are about 1/4 the size of the S12S and they have exactly the same functionality apart from the higher current, which you're not going to use!
OK sold on that one! As things evolve the big controller has fallen from first place in the list:

- I finally tried the motor with 44.4v 12S and Wow! On the short test rides didn't see any more than 590W drawn but much more comfortable.
- 20A x 44.4v means the motor spinning at the same speed as my natural cadence, much better than a 36v battery, it is just a touch too slow.
- I need the extra free space in the controller box for a 44V to 12v buck converter as several things to be mounted require 12v - brake light, horn, LED indicators...

Next step sourcing a 12S battery:

1. build a 12S battery from Sanyo NCR20700B 4250mAh - 15A cells. Spot welded, BMS, 12S charger a normal Li-Ion battery from larger cells than 18650. 4P12S seems like a good compromise for a 44.4v 17Ah battery giving about 755 Wh or 100 km range.

2. build 6S batteries from Sanyo NCR20700B 4250mAh - 15A cells. No BMS so balance charged with my existing chargers and protected with LiPo alarms and the LVC of the controller. 4 X 3P6S modules which can be paralleled and connected in series to make a 3P12S 44.4v 12.7Ah battery or a larger 24 Ah battery depending on required range. Can be shared between my two bikes.

3. Stick with LiPo and buy some more 6S Graphene packs.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#32
What I have on my mind at the moment:
HPV_Aero_Drag.gif
I have been watching (too) many vélomobile videos on Youtube recently and the sight of healthy young men riding on the flat at 60 km/h has inspired me. The above is a graph for flat terrain and no wind, it doesn't take into account losses from drive train and rolling resistance which are about 45 W for a racing bicycle at 40 km/h. Lets be generous and say those losses are 90 W for a 30 kg vélomobile at the same speed, 100 W at 45 km/h. Above we notice the cost of open wheel wells - about 50 W at 45 km/h increasing to 75 W at 60 km/h.

Forum member @D8ve has a Quest and has confirmed that a an older rider can ride at those kind of speeds un-powered (45 km/h). I have tested the GSM at 42-43 km/h at about 470 W so the graph for upright power looks OK (I participate at about 150 W so 620 W total to reach that speed). Soon I hope to have numbers for the trike at 45 km/h also.

Soooo.... In theory, on paper, with a vélomobile shell which will have aero somewhere between the Mango (as close to the Mango as possible would be a nice target) and the upright a 45 km/h cruising speed on the flat will cost probably in the area of 350 W. Minus my 150 W the motor needs to supply 200 W or so which comes to 4.5 Wh/km which seems entirely realistic seeing that I have obtained 5.8 Wh/km on the upright at 26 km/h in similar conditions (flattish road, no wind).

To be continued...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#33
Since I moved in September the trike has been out once... :( My rent is much lower (I could buy a new factory built e-bike every year with the difference!) but there are steep hills all around. That also means everyone uses their car and they do not respect the speed limit - most are at least twice the limit!

Being grounded, so to speak, I have been working on the details of my conversion:

Option 1 (preferred)
- 160 mm Miranda cranks
- repair internal PAS
- 44-28 tooth chainrings which give a top speed of between 50 and 60 km/h before spinning out, that is plenty. Low 16 gear inches vs current 17 gi, will climb walls unpowered...
- 10 speed 11-46 on the rear so most riding will be done on the big chainring, the 28 being a "get home without the battery" gear and for the really hairy stuff in the mountains
- Deore derailleur, life is too short to muck about with lesser rear derailleurs...
- 17 or 20 Amp 48v KT controller in custom box on the boom with large heatsink, new vertical KT LCD8
- both front brake lines will have HWBS
- speed sensor on a front wheel to keep cable runs short
- Wingee rear mudguard/pannier rack
- b+m wired in lights

Option 2 (budget)
- 46-32 tooth chainrings, replace the 42 on the motor with a 46
- 17 or 20 Amp 48v KT controller in custom box on the boom with large heatsink
- both front brake lines will have HWBS
- speed sensor on a front wheel to keep cable runs short
- Tubus Fly pannier rack
- b+m wired in lights

Battery
- self build a 21700/20700 battery, Samsung 50E 25 Ah 44.4v
or
- 2 x http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-8r-jdnp take my chances with a Chinese cell and when they wear out re-cell the HL cases.
or
- 2 x 12 Ah Graphene LiPo (17.6 Ah with packs I have already)

Before doing all that I have to lace the Mxus into a 28" rim to keep Number Two on the road!
 

awol

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 4, 2013
1,112
84
#34
Battery
- self build a 21700/20700 battery, Samsung 50E 25 Ah 44.4v
or
- 2 x http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-8r-jdnp take my chances with a Chinese cell and when they wear out re-cell the HL cases.
or
- 2 x 12 Ah Graphene LiPo (17.6 Ah with packs I have already)

Before doing all that I have to lace the Mxus into a 28" rim to keep Number Two on the road!
Would you use a BMS with a self built 44v, I can't seem to find one or would you continue balance charging.
For wheel lacing I can recommend this book.
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#35
My idea is to build a couple of 25 Ah 6S bricks and series them, they would be balance charged with my Turnigy Reaktors @ 2 Amps. LVC on the LCD3 can be set to 3.2v per cell (2.7v min per Samsung) and I would balance to 4.15v. A 16 or 17 Amp controller would only be drawing 0.33C or so with 10 Amp discharge cells in 5P6S configuration. And 1.11 kWh on tap should give trike like range, my bum can't handle much more than 70 km on an upright but I am good for twice that in my deck chair :)

I did find a 12S BMS there are plenty about on aliexpress. I also found 12S chargers.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#36
Why is it taking me so long to put a motor on the damned thing?

its_a_boat.JPG

My workshop is full to the brim...:rolleyes:

Can anyone guess where I got my inspiration for a ply vélomobile body for the trike from? :) Those with good eyesight will notice that I read pedelecs while the epoxy is curing... And you get a sneak peek inside French social housing to boot!
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#37
I recently discovered ultra-compact oval chainrings (46-30) unfortunately they only work with Shimano cranksets... :( Shame because 30:46 is the same gear inches as my current 26:40 setup and I can get home with that ratio.

I have been riding 2 to 3 times a week again - I take the trike to GF's place in the boot of her Yaris and set out from there. The hill just opposite here is a killer, unreasonable heart rate attained when I get to the top o_O I have often thought "to hell with it, put the Mxus wheel in" but the fear of broken spokes brings me back to reason. Work starts in a couple of weeks so mucking about with motors isn't too far off.

I have had the time to set down a final plan (as well as getting seriously strong again):

- smallest double compatible internal chainwheel I can fit on the GSM is 32
- get me home with an empty battery gear inches equivalent to what I have now would be 32:50
- thus chainwheels 46-32 (never use 48:11 so a 46 will do, maybe even a 44) and cassette 11 speed 11-50 Sunrace

11 speed chain is horribly expensive compared to 10 speed but thinking about the drive train, a whole lot of it is enclosed in tubes and it is very clean despite the serious km I have been putting on recently - at least 100 km a week, over a thousand since the beginning of January.

I have (finally) decided to stay with a 15 Amp controller so will get a KT 36/48v sine wave controller with Jullet plugs from C & D. A small controller holder for the boom has been designed so the water resistant plugs are required. I want it out in the airflow and a heat sink will be stuck on top. Battery will be home made from 21700 cells and 2 x 6P6S bricks without BMS (balance charged) will be connected in series for 44.4v nominative. That combination gives 747 W peak down to 657 W at LVC in assistance level 5. Battery capacity will be between 24 Ah and 30 Ah depending on choice of cells so 1.06 kWh approx. Battery will go in custom box fixed to the lowrider rack, the battery box will also house a buck converter for 12v required for accessories.

I need a new rear wheel with a disk brake hub - a separate rear parking brake to replace the two on the front. A wider rim and Schwalbe Allmotion tubeless tyre on the rear. Two new front wheels with Gingko ventilated brakes and 40 mm wide rims in either 24" or 20" size (to be decided). Though I would love to learn how to build my own wheels I think the cost of having them made by Gingko is a more economical sollution.

The new supernova tail light with brake light has caught my fancy and a b+m 150 lux headlight and b+m electric horn will go on the front. HW brake sensors on both front brakes. Combined 2x11 shifter/brake levers will free up some handle bar space for buttons. An LCD-8 vertical version with cadence indicator means I will keep the external PAS disk. Shorter Miranda cranks will make for more comfortable spinning and happier knees. A rear Wingee fender will replace the SKS and add a couple of panier racks for the big Ortleib bags. I will most probably fit a nose of some sort to keep my feet dry, there are several options being considered. Last but not least a Hinterher Hmax trailer with aluminium box - fishing, camping and shopping require a boot! :D

If you have been following and add all that up it is a fair whack of cash to lay out but this trike is a car replacement. Running the math the rig will pay for itself in about 18 months. When I get really old I'll raise the seat, put in a bigger battery and add a throttle...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,521
786
The European Union
#38
Back to reason... Can't find a 2x11 drive train that will actually work without jumping through large hoops... :(

It is a trike so I am pedalling over the 25 km/h cut off quite a bit. Where I really suffer with the 8 speed 11-40 Sunrace is the big jump between 22T and 28T, the 9 speed 11-36 solves that problem with 21, 24 and 28T. At my cadence that is right in the 22 to 30 km/h bracket. With a 36T bottom gear riding home without electric assistance is not an option however.

If I was living in a normal flat place I would be running a 12-28 10 speed road cassette...
 

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