Kalkhoff 2014 e-bikes

[EcoBoost]

Hi,

This is my first post to the forum, nice to meet you all! There's a lot of interesting discussions going on in here! First, I want to assure you I'm just a regular consumer, with zero connection to the cycling business in any way. I say this because I am really wondering why isn't there virtually any discussions about the new Kalkhoff products which seem to be at least on paper the best the e-bike market has to offer. What I've learned that somehow the marketing is almost non-existent, there just is not information, even pictures, youtube-videos, anything really, available. An e-bike is a fairly big investment, and I want to make the right selections and not regret anything after purchase.

I'm one of those guys who spends hours and hours searching information and love exact information and technical facts that convert into real-life practical use, not marketing blabla. I'm not a total newbie in cycling with cycling around 100-150 km per week now during the winter time and more during the summer. I have a road bike, 29" MTB and this is my serious attempt to replace a car with a bicycle as far as I can.

Link to the 2014 offering
http://www.kalkhoff-bikes.com/int/en/models/2014/e-bike.html

Why I want an e-bike?
I need an e-bike for my daily work commute (40km total) and to support a environment friendly lifestyle, show some example to my kids. I already have a Cargo trailer and Kid for two -trailer, but frankly it sucks to pedal my kids uphill, especially when the little brats are yelling, "Daddy, why not go faster!?"

My current choice and some pondering
http://www.kalkhoff-bikes.com/int/en/models/2014/e-bike/e-performance/endeavour-impulse-s10-10-g-xt.html

There is no full geometry for the frame (!), I cannot select a frame online for my 192cm tall body with 100 % certainty. I don't want find myself coming to the conclusion I was sold just something that was in stock, which is not uncommon in this – or any other for that matter – business.

I love the battery placement. It is subtle, and offers low centre of gravity and capacity for the battery. Always it makes the frame a bit longer which is good when regarding big pannier bags. I don't have any info about the new 350W motor? 70nm Torque sounds good (the best), but what does it mean in practise? I do not have any chance for a test drive at the moment. I've read the mid drive benefits against a hub motor and am not interested about hub motors at all. Bosch and Pana's do not offer enough battery(= range). I don't want recharge my e-bike every single day, I have enough small tasks and stuff in my life already.

S10 vs S11
The Alfine 11 version was really long a contender against the derailleur geared S10, but I personally chose the S10 because (and please correct my possible misbeliefs) basically:
- not totally trusting the Alfine 11 system (if there is a flaw in the shift sensor tech, hub gears will suffer it more than derailleur gears)
- the hub motor "eats away" some of the torque compared to a derailleur geared system
- Alfine's price is higher
- derailleur system is, well, simple, easy to maintain, change and so on
- I can live without stand still gear changes, I've done it so far without any annoyance

Tuning the speed?
From purely out of technical curiosity (I know the laws and guarantee issues) is the modding over 45 km/h (actually 41,4 km/h after Kalkhoff meter faking always 8 % the speed) done by changing the motor sprocket and rear sprockets? What can be the effect in the speed? (feel free to PM me).

 

[103Alex1]

A few things - if you use the full power assist potential of the bike as a speed-pedelec, you will be charging every day. 30 miles is fine at a 'push' for a charge going flat-out on not hideously hilly terrain but 60 miles - no way unless you do most of the work yourself. I think you may even find real life range is more like 20-25 miles on that version, likely even less on a Bosch S-Ped on max assist.

I have not tried the Impulse 2.0 but the 350W version you should find is as good as any Bosch S-class bike, possibly better coupled with hub gears.

- Alfine 11 must be properly set up. If you do not get this right then the shifting is poor. So basically unless you can competently set up your bike if wheels removed then it is in to the bike shop.

- The hub gears (not motor) suffer a small inefficiency compared to derailleur. On normal commuting use you will not notice. They have developed shift interrupt technology which means that the shifting under load problems should be sorted out. Also there is a chain tensioner which will help a lot if the tension is lost without having to reset the wheel.

- Derailleur system likely has more at the lower end and not so much at the higher end of the gear range. But I have not seen the direct chart for the 10sp chainring / rear cassette combination used on that bike.

- Hub gears much lower maintenance and likely fewer chain changes than derailleur. If you want to 'race' your bike then derailleur is probably better but the wear will be greater and maintenance costs higher.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You've obviously done a lot of reading and given it a lot of thought. I think the Kalkhoff would be a good choice. I'd prefer the derailleur gears because of their simplicity and serviceability. It only takes a few minutes to change a cassette if you want different gearing, and they're pretty cheap to buy. you can even have two different back wheels with totally different gearing for different situations. A wheel with gears only costs about £30 if you look for a used one.

A couple of comments about what you wrote above:
"I've read the mid drive benefits against a hub motor and am not interested about hub motors at all."
Everything has advantages and disadvantages. A lot of people are expressing opinions without having tried enough options. They try one under-powered Chinese or worse still, European, hub-motor, and then jump on a Kalkhoff or Bosch bike and pronounce that crank-drives are better. If they jumped on a crank-drive with the 26v Panasonic motor and then tried a Ezee or the Panasonic hub-motor, they would form a totally different opinion than from the previous situation, but very few people have done that. Theory seems to suggest that crank-drives should be more efficient because you can change gears to bring the motor into a more efficient zone; however, in practice, it doesn't work like that because to get good torque, you change gear to bring the motor into a less efficient zone. With all motors, you get the highest torque when the motor is least efficient. Overall, the efficiencies of the two systems are similar except in extreme circumstances. The crank drive has one advantage, that you can get high torque out of a small motor, which is easily countered by the a larger hub-motor that can make the same amount of torque. Hub-motors have advantages too, like the ability to give power without having to change gear, which makes for a lot more relaxing ride for commuting and touring. Many of the opinions about the advantages of crank-drives are out-dated. Things are changing all the time.

I think your last comments about tuning is in relation to the old low-powered 26v Kalkhoffs. tuning of the new one with the Impulse drive is done mainly with software.

 

[rippedupno1]

Hi Ecoboost, I agree with the points made by 103alex and d8veh, I have a Kalkhoff bs10 bought last September and have covered just over 1100 miles since then.
re 103alex comments on range, I have been doing some tests and last weekend managed to scrape 40.4 miles out of a charge with setting in sport(level3 out of 4) averaging 17mph with 816ft of climbing, so fairly flat .it was very easy pedalling my average heart rate was only 121 over the journey ,I could have gone much quicker but obviously would not have got the range. I have managed 30.2 miles on sport(3/4) with an average of 21 mph but I reckon with turbo setting (4/4) I could kill the battery in just over 20 miles and that's on comparatively flat terrain. Am going out shortly and I will do my first test on turbo to see what I get. This is my problem now that the purpose of getting my particular bike has done the trick brilliantly ,ie, Iam much ,much fitter and stronger I find Iam getting frustrated with the range or lack of and trying desperately not to look at the Kalkhoff S11 with its much bigger battery, I WILL NOT LOOK ,I WILL NOT LOOK, oh go on then a quick peek lol. which brings me to d8aveh's comments, I would totally agree that both hub and crank drives have their advantages and disadvantages and one is not superior to the other, but,to me,that is kind of the wrong question, the better question is what am I looking for from a bike, for me it was to get fitter and to perform as close to a normal non powered bike in the manner of pedalling and gear using as possible and for me that meant a went for a crank drive bike, I tried several hub and crank bikes courtesy of martin at onbike(all legal 15.5mph machines) up his long test hill, you know the sort that you dread on a normal bike, not hugely steep but seems to go on forever, the best way I can describe it is the hub drive were like I was being pushed by a giant hand from behind, very easy and relaxing and I might add quicker by 1 mph or so than the crank bikes but with the crank bikes I didn't get the shove in the back feeling it just felt like I had bionic legs I had to do all the cycling so to speak but felt like my legs were 20 again ,which for me, was exactly what I was looking for. It is also fair to say that the BS10 and a similarly 350 watt hub drive would have been even easier and faster. So again I say the most important thing is to make the effort and try as many different bikes as you can and really ask yourself how you want the bike to feel in terms of riding, there is not right and wrong it is just personal preference for individual need.

 

[rippedupno1]

Right , battery was hot off the charger showing a range in turbo (L4) of 31 miles. I managed 23.4 miles (gps) until completely flat, average speed 22mph ,436 ft climbing so not very hilly at all. There was lots of stop start, traffic lights etc. and I really tried hard ,av heart rate 151 and there was a fair bit of traffic around today. Am not sure how useful this information is but there you go. What I did find interesting is how much greater your level of concentration needs to be when you are doing over 25 mph as opposed to 18-20 ,doesn't sound like much in terms of speed but compared to me doing roughly the same route yesterday at L3 circa 17 mph average and today at L4@ 22 mph average, the concentration level needed to be way ,way higher today, cant say that I really enjoyed it to be honest, I much preferred yesterdays ride. Interesting.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

the concentration level needed to be way ,way higher today, cant say that I really enjoyed it to be honest, I much preferred yesterdays ride. Interesting.

it's not just the concentration: Your tyres and brakes need to be good too.

I must say, that i found that sort of speed too high as well. I like it up to about 20 mph - maybe 22 mph on a long open road - with 15 mph being my happy touring speed. I think that once you get to 25 mph, a moped becomes a much better option.

I think that it's fun to go fast occasionally, but it can become tedious if you do it all the time.

Thanks for the objective range information. It all adds to the database, which people can use to make decisions. You did 17wH/mile at 22mph, which isn't bad. You must have been pedalling quite hard as well.

 

[Artstu]

I've done 15.2 wh/mile at 17.5 mph, but with a huge headwind on 3/5ths of the ride and 3700 feet of ascent.

 

[rippedupno1]

@ d8veh yes I was certainly giving it some welly, i could have given it a bit more but remembered half way round that i had to train with a client in the gym an hour after, back and triceps, iam now very tired lol.
@Artstu that is some climbing, nice one, iam looking to do more climbing come the nicer weather iam just concentrating on training z2 & 3 HRM at the moment building up my fitness.

 

[103Alex1]

Those figures look spot on what I'd expect. Even with a 250W Impulse bike, riding 20-22mph on the flat in top gear and mixing in some long sharp climbs will knock the range down to about 24 miles before the voltage sag starts showing.

d8veh and rippedupno1 are also very right about cycling at over 23-25mph. You have to really concentrate on the road (which is tiring) and you need well adjusted brakes with decent tyres. When I take my Trek over 40mph down a hill I am completely fixed on the road and looking out for the slightest obstacle / road defect. It is not relaxing - more of a short thrill. When I take my Kalkhoff over 31mph down hill I am praying for fatter tyres and 26" wheels ... and that I don't wind up calling an ambulance (again ! )

 

[Artstu]

The beauty of an e-bike is that you can choose to go very fast if you so desire.
I did an unpowered ride on an old training bike to see how I'm doing, it was slow and hard work on the hills, but not so bad on the flat and downhill.
It made me realise that I'm still faster using only eco and tour power than unpowered.
I'm trying to extend my range, so low power is the order of the day for me these days. Currently unpowered is not an option, the effort required is above what my illness realistically allows.

I'm now one of those rare e-bike riders who wants to ride around 60 miles in one ride. Unpowered I was mentally counting down to the end of the short ride from just 4 miles in, on the e-bike at the same point I'm looking forward to the ride ahead with no worries.

Oh nearly forgot, I guess my brakes wear out quickly because I hit 50 mph on one downhill, and towards the bottom a one lane cattle grid around a blind bend requires 40 mph to be scrubbed off very quickly.