Knee position when riding advice please

[Old Timer]

I went out for a 10 mile ride yesterday and my left knee became painful during the evening (my knees are typical to my old trade and get dodgy)I had put on a brand new pair of trainers(identical to the ones I discarded that very morning) and the old ones had worn slightly to the outside edge(probably my feet lean out and that is what caused the outside wear)

So today I`ve been kicking a few ideas around. I`ve measured the distance from the centre of my strapless toe clips and it is around the same from the centre of the frame to the centre of the toe clip 6" When I fitted the toe clips I had to drill the pedals and move them out to prevent the inside of my trainers from rubbing on the crank arms (about an inch)

I`m now thinking that my feet should be nearer to the cranks( maybe different shoes for riding like I used to wear when young) that were narrower and kept your foot in closer.

Setting up the bikes for leg reach and pedal position under the knee is quite simple but judging the vertical position of the leg is a lot more difficult and there isn`t much on the web about it.

Anyone with no knee problems riding an E bike casually probably won`t notice any problems till a bit further into older age.

I`m considering removing the toe clips and seeing where my foot settles and or repositioning it as and when I get pain to try to nail the position.

Anyone got any thoughts on the matter?

 

[allen-uk]

Dave:

I let my feet settle into their 'natural' position, which means not using toe-clips or cleats, which obviously HOLD the feet in that position.

Most older people, and particularly if they're carrying a bit of weight, have feet that naturally point outwards.

The pic shows the way I manage this. I use big flat pedals, with a 'terror pin' at each corner. That way most soles, particularly trainers, but anything with a deep tread, will 'stick' like glue to the pedals, in WHATEVER position you put your feet. (The 'crank shortener' in the pic is specifically to cope with the plastic leg, but the pedals themselves are for any sort of feet).

Oh, did you see those Amazon kneesaver variants that onmebike linked to the other day? Only ten quid, which makes the US versions somewhat overpriced...


Allen.

 

[Mussels]

I've had both knees operated on and still suffer pain if I abuse them, I find the easiest way to make them hurt is to have the saddle too low and cycle with too low a cadence.
I use SPD pedals as they have plenty of float so although my foor is in a fixed position on the pedal it can rotate easily without coming loose, if your foot angles out (as many men's feet do) you can fix the cleat to the shoe at just the right angle for you.
Unfortunately it's not the cheapest thing to try as the pedals are £25+ and shoes £20+ but for me it was well worth the money, now I have a comfortable setting it is always there and needs no thought from me.

 

[Old Timer]

Dave:

I let my feet settle into their 'natural' position, which means not using toe-clips or cleats, which obviously HOLD the feet in that position.

Most older people, and particularly if they're carrying a bit of weight, have feet that naturally point outwards.

The pic shows the way I manage this. I use big flat pedals, with a 'terror pin' at each corner. That way most soles, particularly trainers, but anything with a deep tread, will 'stick' like glue to the pedals, in WHATEVER position you put your feet. (The 'crank shortener' in the pic is specifically to cope with the plastic leg, but the pedals themselves are for any sort of feet).

Oh, did you see those Amazon kneesaver variants that onmebike linked to the other day? Only ten quid, which makes the US versions somewhat overpriced...


Allen.

Allen

Do those pedals come with the pins in place when you purchase them?

 

[Old Timer]

I've had both knees operated on and still suffer pain if I abuse them, I find the easiest way to make them hurt is to have the saddle too low and cycle with too low a cadence.
I use SPD pedals as they have plenty of float so although my foor is in a fixed position on the pedal it can rotate easily without coming loose, if your foot angles out (as many men's feet do) you can fix the cleat to the shoe at just the right angle for you.
Unfortunately it's not the cheapest thing to try as the pedals are £25+ and shoes £20+ but for me it was well worth the money, now I have a comfortable setting it is always there and needs no thought from me.

Yeh! I`ve heard that operations on knees is not the ultimate answer for some.
I take your point about the pedals and shoes. I think I`ll take my toe clips off for a test and see where my feet settle.

when my knees play up, if I walk around the house with flat sandals on or just in my socks then things feel better( but of course my tootsies get cold

 

[allen-uk]

Allen

Do those pedals come with the pins in place when you purchase them?

Nah. Both the pedals and the terror pins come from Chain Reaction (and others). You need pedals where the supplied pins UNSCREW (usually from beneath, with allen keys); then you replace them with the longer sharper ones. They're only grub screws, and if you either have a well-stocked shed or an old-fashioned hardware shop nearby, you would get them in larger quantities, and a lot cheaper!

DMR Terror Pins | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

Allen.

 

[allen-uk]

I find the easiest way to make them hurt is to have the saddle too low ....

A Gravitydropper might help you, Mussels. It's a device for raising and lowering the saddle whilst on the move. I start off with it in the down position, so my feet can be flattish on the floor, and once I'm going I pull a lever and the saddle shoots up 4" (mind your bum) to give me a more comfortable riding position.

Silly price, but in my case it was either that or not riding more than a hundred yards, so money well spent.

(They were designed for MTB off-road loonies to go up and down mountains, but they function just as well for people with other needs!)

GravityDropper Adjustable Height Seatpost

Allen.

 

[Old Timer]

Nah. Both the pedals and the terror pins come from Chain Reaction (and others). You need pedals where the supplied pins UNSCREW (usually from beneath, with allen keys); then you replace them with the longer sharper ones. They're only grub screws, and if you either have a well-stocked shed or an old-fashioned hardware shop nearby, you would get them in larger quantities, and a lot cheaper!

DMR Terror Pins | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

Allen.

and whats that pedal you have them attached to? looks like a decent sized platform.

Dave

 

[allen-uk]

and whats that pedal you have them attached to? looks like a decent sized platform.

Dave

They're DMR V8 - cheap, though not as dirt cheap as the Halfords equivalents. I bought these as they DO have detachable corner pins - some others don't.

But they are a good sized platform, which is all part of the process for dealing with old and bent feet.

DMR V8 Grease Port | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

A.

 

[Straylight]

I've recently started using Wellgo platform pedals, which are huge but very comfortable as my feet can sit where they want, and yet still apply a decent amount of pressure. They only cost about a tenner from Ebay, and the come with pins attached.

 

[allen-uk]

They only cost about a tenner from Ebay, and the come with pins attached.

They look fine, but do the pins come OUT as well? I had a similar pair from Halfords and the pins weren't changeable.


A.

 

[dimmer]

Hi Allen,could you tell me where i can get one of those 'crank shorteners' ,i have been looking for one of those for a long time,
regards,
George.

 

[allen-uk]

Hello George.

They used to be easy to get, now apparently less so.

Mine are from:

Highpath Engineering, EGGring chainrings and Pulse cycle components

a VERY small engineering company in Wales, but as the website says the owner is currently off on a charity ride and won't take any more orders for a couple of months (!), I had a quick google and came up with some alternatives. None of the following are the same design as the ones in my picture, but certainly the first one looks similar. WARNING: the prices are silly, as these things are not mass produced!

Ride2 Crank Arm Shorteners for up to 43mm wide 9/16 arms: Amazon.co.uk: Amazon.co.uk:

Thorn Crank Shorteners per pair

Thorn Crank Shorteners per pair

Kinetics - Hase Accessories

One other thing: the last time I recommended a similar thing (although that was for 'Kneesavers'), onmebike popped up with a version costing ten quid to my fifty. Oi, ONMEBIKE, come in please, your magic wand is needed here...


Allen.

 

[onmebike]

One other thing: the last time I recommended a similar thing (although that was for 'Kneesavers'), onmebike popped up with a version costing ten quid to my fifty. Oi, ONMEBIKE, come in please, your magic wand is needed here...


Allen.[/QUOTE]

I'll see if I can find something, but the simple answer to me is, find an engineering shop locally that can drill and tap your existing or a suitable crank arm. All they'll need to know is by how much you'll need it shortened.
Another option may be drill and tap it at several intervals for adjustment.

Highpath also do a crank shortening service.
Highpath Engineering, EGGring chainrings and Pulse cycle components

 

[Straylight]

They look fine, but do the pins come OUT as well? I had a similar pair from Halfords and the pins weren't changeable.


A.

I think they make two versions, one with removable/replaceable pins, the other cast all in one. The pins you can remove are bare metal vs the pedals with pins painted the same colour as the pedal itself. Be aware they make two sizes of thread for crank attachment (I bought the wrong one first )
I NOW know that most bikes take 9/16...

 

[dimmer]

Hi all ,thank you for your quick replys thats great info,as i have a small private workshop of my own next to my house(bridgeport mill,boxford lathe,etc)i am going to try and make a pair.

They are actually for a Bremshey Cardio Control excercise bike which i bought for my partener about 2 years ago after she had 2 new hips.
she can not turn the pedal arc because of restricted movement. bremshey said they have never been asked for anything that reduces the pedal movement or know of anyone that could help so it has been sitting for 2 years.
I now have a few options so thanks again and i will let you know what happens,
regards,
George.

 

[allen-uk]

George:

there IS an alternative, which might work as it's just on the exercise bike, which is to build up the PEDAL (or pedals). I have a vague memory of seeing such a device which clamped on top of the existing pedal, which then of course has the same effect as the crank shortener, i.e. it shortens the distance from knee to pedal!

But if you are a closet engineer, this could be something you could knock up.


A.

 

[Old Timer]

I was reading an article about using shorter cranks to avoid further trouble with dodgy knees. Might give it a try.

 

[Scimitar]

George:

there IS an alternative, which might work as it's just on the exercise bike, which is to build up the PEDAL (or pedals). I have a vague memory of seeing such a device which clamped on top of the existing pedal, which then of course has the same effect as the crank shortener, i.e. it shortens the distance from knee to pedal!

But if you are a closet engineer, this could be something you could knock up.


A.

Problem with building the pedal up, is it might be too high on the Top Dead Centre (TDC) to borrow a car term, which might be a problem for one with restricted hip movement. The modifier crank-shortener only moves the pedal pivot, and keeps the TDC distance short, too.

 

[allen-uk]

Of course, Dave; apologies for lack of engineering foresight.

A