Likely to need a new eZee battery

[Synthman]

I bought my bike just over a year ago, and the dealer included a Phylion battery from 2007, with the tamper seal broken. The packs inside weren't secured properly and I had a lot of trouble with losing power, until I secured it properly. It also gives less than half the advertised range, although the battery hasn't declined since I've owned it. The dealer couldn't care less about it.

When the time comes, I will be getting a pack sent over from China, and fit it myself, can't trust UK dealers now and it is very expensive.

 

[Cyclezee]

Well, the price is £400, obviously No comment from anyone as to what eZee puts into a raw £250 battery to justify a £400 pricetag?

My point is this - eZee may have discontinued their Phylion batteries a while back, but they sold me one, and I have never heard from them or 50Cycles about the problems with that battery. I now read that many people got ex-warranty replacements or trade-ins - would have done much for my customer relationship with them if that sort offer had been more widely available rather than requiring me to be in the know.

So, I have a duff battery, that was bad from the off. Now I have to pay eZee/Onbike a pretty large sum to get me back on the road. And I am aware that I was a "beta tester" for their first attempt at Li-Ion batteries. Does not really dispose me to go down that route, to be honest.

That £400 will require me 2-3 months to save up, meaning I lose most of the summer of biking. Other routes will get me going more quickly and more cheaply.

Long and the short of it is that while I like the bike itself, I am not hugely happy that eZee has in part put me in this position. John, as a future eZee dealer, what's your attitude to all that? Am I being unfair, or do I have a point?

Hi David,

OK, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability and from the facts as I understand them.

Firstly price, eZee battery prices are in line with those of other major electric bike manufacturers and slightly less than a few I could mention and half the price of those supplied by a certain Canadian company which uses exactly the same cells from the same production line.

As for the original Phylion battery problems, I don't know how 50cycles as the UK distributors back then dealt with the issue. What I do know from a very highly respected and completely unbiased member of the forum is that eZee shipped out 1000 free replacement batteries, if you look back in this thread you find that fact.

eZee certainly did not knowingly sell batteries that would not live up to expectations, that would have been commercial suicide for a company that is in this business for the long haul and not just out to make a quick buck.

A few questions if I may David, your answers may help me to answer you more fully:

1. Did the battery fail in your first year of ownership and within what was the warranty period at that time?
2. If it did fail, did you report the matter to the supplier at the time, 50cycles?
3. If you did report the failure to 50cycles, how was the matter dealt with?

 

[Cyclezee]

I bought my bike just over a year ago, and the dealer included a Phylion battery from 2007, with the tamper seal broken. The packs inside weren't secured properly and I had a lot of trouble with losing power, until I secured it properly. It also gives less than half the advertised range, although the battery hasn't declined since I've owned it. The dealer couldn't care less about it.

When the time comes, I will be getting a pack sent over from China, and fit it myself, can't trust UK dealers now and it is very expensive.

Hi Synthman,

Would you like to name names and provide a bit more information, i.e.

What brand of bike did you buy?
Was it a new bike?
Which dealer did you buy it from?
Did you know at the time of purchase that the battery was 3 years old?

 

[Synthman]

Hi Synthman,

Would you like to name names and provide a bit more information, i.e.

What brand of bike did you buy?
Was it a new bike?
Which dealer did you buy it from?
Did you know at the time of purchase that the battery was 3 years old?

1: The brand of my bike is in my signature.
2: It was a new bike.
3: Poweredbicycles.co.uk (a.k.a. Scattergoods).
4: No.

 

[DBCohen]

Firstly price, eZee battery prices are in line with those of other major electric bike manufacturers and slightly less than a few I could mention and half the price of those supplied by a certain Canadian company which uses exactly the same cells from the same production line.

No idea who that Canadian company is, John, but let's call a spade a spade, eh? If their pricing is a matter of records, say who they are?

Pricing in line with everyone else is not really an explanation - what value are they adding to justify the mark up, apart from fitting their own bikes? Is their pricing fair, or is it the Gillette Razor/Printer Ink Cartridge of profit clawback on consumables?

As you know, I am considering a Juicy - their batteries are £225 for a 10Ah.

As for the original Phylion battery problems, I don't know how 50cycles as the UK distributors back then dealt with the issue. What I do know from a very highly respected and completely unbiased member of the forum is that eZee shipped out 1000 free replacement batteries, if you look back in this thread you find that fact.

That's EXACTLY my point, John. 1000 devices is pretty much a recall - I am a little stung that they didn't contact ALL of their customers, rather than just the ones who got in touch with them.

A few questions if I may David, your answers may help me to answer you more fully:

1. Did the battery fail in your first year of ownership and within what was the warranty period at that time?
2. If it did fail, did you report the matter to the supplier at the time, 50cycles?
3. If you did report the failure to 50cycles, how was the matter dealt with?

No, it didn't fail in year 1 - I used my bike for 5 months that year and then closed down for the winter. The batteries had a 6 month warranty. Funny that they have two year warranties now...

The following year, it did seem to be lasting less - It was hard for me to be sure because my commute is well under the batteries range, but I was seeing a red light more often. I emailed 50Cycles and got no response. I then saw that 50Cycles had ceased selling all eZee products. I presume that this was around the time their spat with eZee came to a head and they parted ways.

Since that time I have not had much of a chance to use that bike, so it has been in storage. The battery has been well cared for, stored in a cool place and charged every now and again. However, looks like all of that was a waste of time as it was a lemon to start with.

As I said, my issue here is that I just don't feel that eZee as a supplier has done all it could in respect of these bad batteries. 50Cycles have also been pretty unfortunate in just jettisoning their eZee customers. I don't know what the terms of their disagreement with eZee was, but it looks like many of us lost out as a result.

I love e-biking, but £400 every year or two (or even three) for batteries is one heck of a running cost. That I feel like a bit of a guinea pig makes it less easy to be philosophical about.

David.

 

[Cyclezee]

OK David,

It is no secret, the Canadian company is BionX and their 10Ah battery sells for £1049.99 available in the UK from this source BATTERY LIMN, 37V, 9.6AH STANDARD CANBUS.

You obviously feel that eZee batteries are over priced and what ever I say will make no difference, so shall we agree to differ on that point?

If you had a problem with the battery within the warranty period and reported it to 50cycles it should have been dealt with, but as you say, you didn't have a problem during the that time.

You sent one email to 50cycles after the warranty had expired and got no response, perhaps you should have followed that up with a phone call.

As for not receiveing a replacement battery, eZee do not know who the individual customers are and as you did not inform 50cycles, how would that be possible to get a replacement.

In conclusion, I do not think you have been dealt with unfairly.

 

[DBCohen]

You obviously feel that eZee batteries are over priced and what ever I say will make no difference, so shall we agree to differ on that point?

It's not that I have a particular strong opinion, John - they are expensive enough that it makes it difficult enough to replace without thinking about it, and that makes a replacement bike an option. But nobody has been able to explain to me what goes into that cost - I just want to know. If I know what makes up the price differential, I might be able to form an opinion on the value.

If you had a problem with the battery within the warranty period and reported it to 50cycles it should have been dealt with, but as you say, you didn't have a problem during the that time.

Well, the warranty period was only six months back then. Did ANYONE see problems within that time? Or did Phylion engineer the warranty period because they knew the batteries had especially short lives? The fact that eZee still replaced 1000 batteries implies to me that they didn't fell the warranty was a particular relevance, but that it was a fitness for purpose issue.

You sent one email to 50cycles after the warranty had expired and got no response, perhaps you should have followed that up with a phone call.

As for not receiveing a replacement battery, eZee do not know who the individual customers are and as you did not inform 50cycles, how would that be possible to get a replacement.

Well, admittedly I am looking back through the lens of forum history, John, but from what I can see that's not quite the case. By March 2008 50Cycles were abrogating all responsibility for their eZee customers and advice in here was directing people to email eZee directly for all support. I sent my mail in April 2008 - 50Cycles didn't respond to advise me of the situation.

eZee could have done more to reach customers with bad batteries, in my opinion - clearly the issues with Phylion were apparent before 50Cycles and eZee parted ways, so I am sure that numbers and contacts could have been passed on request before a breakdown in the relationship with the dealer. I see from their website they terminated their relationship with a US dealer as well in the middle of last year.

Either way, I feel that the way things panned out dealt some unsuspecting customers a poor deal. Now, I am not really bitter about this - I am a realist. I am sure all of them learnt from their experiences. I have options to keep me going, and perhaps I'll drop eZee an email as well for their reference.

Thanks for your comments - discussion much appreciated.

Warm regards,

David.

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi David,

I have sent you a P.M.

Best regards,

 

[averhamdave]

I fitted a Chinese 36v, 15ah lipo4 battery on the rack of my Ezee Torq when its battery gave up the ghost and its been fantastic so far. £500 is too much for a battery IMO, just goes against the whole economics of e-biking for me.

Anyway it cost £185 with charger. Wiring is dead simple. Underneath those prong type connectors on the bottom of your battery carrier are a couple of screw post terminals - couldn't be easier.

 

[Chief eZee Power]

Phylion battery

We started by using lead acid batteries in 2001, then in 2003, we changed to NiMH, which at that time were given 6 months warranty as standard in the industry. When we started fitting Li+ batteries from Phylion, we gave the same 6 months warranty, not because we expected that it would expire shortly after that period. ( That was the warranty period given by Phylion as well )

Yes, we were fooled by Phylion, let me state here very clearly we lost a 1000 times more than any individual who has lost value with that Phylion battery. When Phylion did not back up their warranty we picked up the bill as far as we could without going out of business.( we were just about to ) . That figure of 1000 batteries is slightly misleading, from this last batch of supposedly "fixed" batteries, some were for warranty replacement and some were sold.

We decided at the end of this 1000 units we kept close track of that the quality consistency was not good enough for us to continue with them, and further more we found better supplies. It is not so easy to test batteries for their whole life span, we did what we could, studied the test reports and data, looked at their organisation and technical capability, in other words - due diligence but this did not guarantee us with what would happen.

Next, the problem with 50cycles. I do not wish to discuss this much further. Simply say, that we just had no control over what was going on, or of even knowing what was going on. We were so disappointed with the situation that we terminated the distribution agreement with them, for the fact that they did not pay us for a large amount of money owing to us that had not been paid within a reasonable period.

We terminated the agreement with eZeebike USA because they were not trying to sell bikes, they were in fact trying to sell a story to investors, unfortunately it was not the right year for them to get easy money from blind and greedy investors. These are not easy times for us, but we just have to bite the bullet, and we pay the price for wrong decision we made in the past.

eZee has been in the ebike business since 2001, and we have learnt our lessons well, and what we offer now, is judged by reliability, performance and value for money for the customer.

 

[DBCohen]

Thanks for the response, Chief eZee. It's useful to know the detail - at least I know to avoid 50Cycles for a replacement bike.

 

[DBCohen]

Scott,

I understand and appreciate your putting your side of the story over - it was not my aim to get the 50Cycles/eZee relationship breakdown debated in public.

If you read the entire thread, you will see that I am a 50Cycles customer, who received a duff battery, and on contacting you received no response. I then found out that you had terminated with eZee and were advising customers with battery issues to email them directly.

So unfortunately you didn't get all of your customers - here I am and I have never had any of the restitution you offered to others.

Happy to discuss that with you offline - I will PM you.

David.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I have no particular axe to grind here, as you no doubt know both Ezee and 50Cycles are our competitors.

From this completely unbiased view point I believe the comment not to go to 50Cycles for a replacement bike is unfair. Since their move to Kalkhoff 50Cycles have had an excellent reputation for quality, back up and service. They did suffer from a little bad press a few years ago but that was at the time they were selling Ezee products. The breakdown in that relationship has been well documented already and IMO does not need revisiting.

One point in Scott's reply I dont agree with is that all Chinese factories are the same. Ezee may have supplied inferior products in the past from a factory with awful working conditions and they may have become worse over the years, however that is not our experience. (I should also say that I know through my dealings with On-Bike that Ezee have made huge strides to improve their products since that time, as have we all!) Our time working in China has been quite superb and there is no doubt that, many electric bikes coming out of China now are as good as anything you would hope to find in Europe.

All the best

David

 

[NRG]

The current issue of AToB lists their experience of a number of batteries Inc 3 Ezee types....


Sorry 2 types....

 

[Cyclezee]

Unfortunately, this thread has descended to mudslinging in public. It does credit to no one. There are events that happened in the past which clearly still raise high emotions, anger those concerned and will probably never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

In a public forum, there will be those who find this amusing and others who think it is quite pathetic.

I think it is time to move on for the benefit of the industry and more importantly, the customer.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi John, I believe the guys at 50Cycles have the right to and should defend themselves on the Pedelecs forum or anywhere for that matter. As you know 50Cycles and Wisper have not always seen eye to eye but I do believe in fair play and the right to reply.

I too hope this does not degenerate into a mud slinging exercise, as you say it does no-one any favours and probably damages the industry.

Let's hope it stops here.

Best regards

David

 

[Cyclezee]

Let's hope it stops here.

Best regards

David

No more from me David.

Have nice day

 

[Wisper Bikes]

You too John!

All the best

David

 

[banbury frank]

Hi

OK folks Hear is my two penny's worth

If I look at the Lead acid kit we sold 4 years ago they where rubbish

Compared with what we sell today it was a total new market for all supplier and manufacturers to put it into context look at the 1960 ,s Mini

Then look at the BMW Mini

That is how far the Electric bike and kit market has developed

We now have Cosworth Volkswagen and others in the Market

so looking back is NO way to go

Just look at the Fantastic products on the market today from 50 Cycles and wisper and look forward to further developments

Frank

 

[Alex728]

Unfortunately, this thread has descended to mudslinging in public. It does credit to no one. There are events that happened in the past which clearly still raise high emotions, anger those concerned and will probably never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

In a public forum, there will be those who find this amusing and others who think it is quite pathetic.

I think it is time to move on for the benefit of the industry and more importantly, the customer.

As a customer, I'd much rather that bad news was discussed out in the open than covered up. Coming from the IT industry there is too much of a culture of problem denial and burying bad news and disputes which is thankfully comparatively absent in e-bikes. I do appreciate it might affect John more as it could cost him sales, but not facing up to bad news does no one any favours in the long run.

Ezee were a close second for my upgrade to Wisper, but lost the business as I could clearly see in 2008/9 there was a customer service problem caused by miscommunication/disputes between dealers and Mr Ching.

The average e-bike customers is no fool and can read between the lines. I wasn't even sure then TBH, despite the wealth of information on here who was the UK dealer for Ezee bikes!

However I don't think Mr Ching was at all acting maliciously - perhaps I know a bit more about how he thinks in business, he comes from the same country and Chinese ancestry as my late father (well it was the same country when they were both born )

What he is more guilty of is overestimating the amount of resources required for customer service whilst trying to expand the customer base worldwide, and thus overstretching himself.

At the same time Wisper appeared to concentrate on reliability as much as innovation, concentrating on some core markets (the UK and NZ) and most importantly customer service, whilst 50 cycles concentrated on European bikes- even then they had some issues with these such as the bizzare choice to use 32 spoked wheels on some Kahlkoffs, and the early Wispers having less robust wheels.

Even with e-bikes, Mr Amstrong was right to an extent "its not about the bike" - its long term reliability, and customer service that matters most! When it came to dealing with the problems/bad news, Wisper and David consistently came out on top, engaged in dialogue with forum users here (whilst other dealers/manfacturers walked away and/or actively discouraged their staff from discussion).

David and his colleagues came across as approachable and dedicated in both UK and China.

At the same time, the intrepid Mr Ching often gave the impression he was always off jet-setting in foreign nations and pitching his latest project - whilst others were left to do the customer service job but weren't always brought to the right level of scrutiny and assessment. I doubt this was his intention at all, but for a variety of reasons (not even that much to do with nationalities and cultures) you simply can't afford to take your eye off the ball in a small business.

More importantly the culture of frank discussion on this forum has raised the bar for everyone..

A couple of years ago I would have hesitated to recommend an e-bike to anyone other than an engineer - not because they were rubbish but due to the lack of timely support. Things have got better since then - though there is still room for improvement - but this forum and the discussion on it help keep the industry sharp and competitive. I feel that if the bad news had been covered up more there wouldn't be the level of progress and innovation there is today.