Looking forward to....

indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
Many thanks to James Fitzgerald and most particularly, his young apprentice sorcerer, Lee for their hospitality, information and advice on their beautiful range of bikes at the Old Chapel Works at Leiston yesterday.

It was a necessarily fleeting visit for me but Lee, a young man hugely appreciative of what ebikes are about, found time to permit me test rides on several bikes and also persuaded my other half to have a go on one too.

I had heard or read previously that James intended to open a branch in London and I believe a new outlet is almost ready to open for business on Portobello Road. I shall certainly visit those premises, not least because I am on record as saying I'm a big fan of Dutch bikes and Justebikes deal in top quality machines.

At Leiston, I had the opportunity to ride the full-sus Haibike and I agree with others who have commented positively on that machine. It really is a class apart from other bikes of that sporting ilk and the motor/gearing combination seems just about as perfect as most riders would want or need. Of course, Haibike is German and not Dutch but it's not for that reason that I say it wasn't my favourite ride. A couple of Sparta models and the exceptionally finished, beautifully engineered Koga model I tried were my favourites.

What did I learn from riding the various machines? Most particularly, I learned that hub-driven ebikes can be as smooth and pedal-responsive as my Panasonic crank-drive. I also discovered that twin-strut suspension with 50mm + travel is not required to provide a smooth ride over irregular surfaces. Both the Sparta and the Koga models were superb in that regard. Perhaps less surprising but nevertheless welcome was the silent travel all of the bikes I rode provided. For a variety of reasons, we read a lot in these pages of the the bikes at the budget and bargain basement end of the market but the machines in which Justebikes deal are certainly not in that category.

So, for those readers who can reach either Leiston or the new Portobello Rd outlet when it opens and most pertinently, whose budget might stretch to the big numbers involved at this end of the market, I can heartily recommend the warm welcome and (I think) genuine interest in the customer's needs as exhibited on my visit.

For comparison, my partner and I arrived at Leiston, me riding my Gazelle and she, a Cytronex Quick4, both good machines in their own way. Both bikes were easily beaten by models from Haibike, Sparta and Koga. I don't refer to speed or power; I mean all-round ride quality, gear range, torque curves peaking in the right places and providing a lovely, serene ride with easy hill-climbing.

My biggest problem, on reflection, is reconciling how unaware I was as to to which rides were powered by 24/26V and those with 36V. Methinks this recent preoccupation with 36V system advertising is more to do with hype than actual substance. I'm sure our electrician friends have the explanation but I found the reality somewhat different from the theory and bear in mind that Storck are still utilising 24/26V systems and many readers here voted that brand as ebike of the year last time round. What do I know?

Many thanks to Lee and James. I wish you every success with the new venture and fully intend to pop over to the new London branch soon.

Cheque to the usual address thank you James,
Indalo


ps The "sorcery" allusion refers to the adjustments these guys can produce to stock motors using nothing more than a laptop and a couple of leads. More Newton metres required sir?......just hold Control + for a couple of seconds.......or something along those lines. No spanner required!
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,253
3,197
Thanks Indalo, it's always interesting to read comparisons between different bikes and bike dealers. I'm a little bit guilty of believing that an ebike can't get much better than my Pro Connect with its Panasonic crank drive, but a recent ride on a bike with an EZee kit fitted to it demonstrated that a hub motor can deliver plenty of power smoothly and quietly.

I've never really understood this 24v - 36v thing. The wiring runs on an ebike, particularly ones fitted with a Panasonic or Bosch motor aren't long enough to incur much in the way of I*I*R losses because R is small.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Was there any haibike trekking bikes there to demo as I thought they would be more your stylee:D

I believe Bob Blew is still waiting for his....at least summer has not started yet:confused::rolleyes:
 

KirstinS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2011
3,224
899
Brighton
The 24v vs 36v point is very intersting Indalo

I've never ridden a 24v bike except an ancient powabyke so the difference between it and a modern 24v is probably huge

I had kind of just accepted the recieved wisdom that 36v good, 24v bad

just goes to show you need to test these things out for yourself
 

indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
I'm a little bit guilty of believing that an ebike can't get much better than my Pro Connect with its Panasonic crank drive, but a recent ride on a bike with an EZee kit fitted to it demonstrated that a hub motor can deliver plenty of power smoothly and quietly.

I've never really understood this 24v - 36v thing. The wiring runs on an ebike, particularly ones fitted with a Panasonic or Bosch motor aren't long enough to incur much in the way of I*I*R losses because R is small.

Tillson,

Like you, I'm a big fan of the Panasonic crank-drive system and equally the Kalkhoff range, particularly the PC variety. Make no mistake, I could easily still change to something from that stable when the mood takes me. Their longer-range batteries might swing it when I come to parting with cash but those big Dutch bikes are delightful with a little more power available than previously.

I really thought I would be disappointed by them in the power stakes, especially when testing them over the same terrain as a Haibike but far from it! I found them well up to the job. Ok, the hills available in Leiston aren't exactly daunting, (this is Leiston remember, not Lincoln!) and perhaps the really steep stuff would prove too much for them, I don't know?



Was there any haibike trekking bikes there to demo as I thought they would be more your stylee:D
Yes Eddie, there were some Trekking models on display but I don't know if they already have homes to go to or what the situation is with them. After testing the top-of-the-range model, I felt I had a good grasp of the Bosch system with its strong power delivery and I really wanted to try the Dutch bikes. Believe me, the ones I rode were far superior to, (and a tad lighter than!) the last Sparta bike I rode in Cambridge about 4 years ago.

The Trekking model remains high on my list of desirable, practical machines and I'd hazard a guess and suggest it's probably the one that Tillson might wish to test for comparison with his accomplished Kalkhoff. Now, that would be an interesting comparison!


The 24v vs 36v point is very intersting Indalo. I had kind of just accepted the recieved wisdom that 36v good, 24v bad; just goes to show you need to test these things out for yourself
Kirstin, your impression mirrors that of mine and while I have no doubt that some of our knowledgeable correspondents here can explain why, perhaps ultimately, the more powerful system is better, the actual feel on-road and the bike's reaction to pedal input between the two voltage levels wasn't instantly discernible to me. Perhaps a longer-term test might inform me differently but given the legally-assisted limit of c15mph, it occurs to me that the lower voltage system is perfectly adequate. I certainly can't remember any 26V Kalkhoff PCS owner ever complaining about a lack of grunt?

Apart from all that, while I was in Aldeburgh just down the road, I walked up the Town Steps just to get the feel of the task undertaken by the young lad on a Haibike a year or two back. (For those who haven't seen it, there's a vid on Youtube.) I'm pretty sure that if all forum members attempted the same feat on their own bikes, there would be a few bicycle failures, if not body failures before ever getting near the top.

Now, I'm sure I read somewhere that there are 49 steps involved but I swear to God that I only counted 46. Can anyone confirm that number or did I simply get a little confused? Either way, it's not something I'm minded to do any time soon. I shall leave that sort of thing to all the wannabe Danny Macaskills!

Regards all,
Indalo
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
The latest Panasonic 36 v as fitted to Flyers and others, getting rave reviews.....Panasonic even have a powerful hub motor now as fitted to latest KTM
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,491
30,805
The silence and smoothness of the hub drives commented on is mainly due to them being direct drive motors. Internally geared hub motors can be much noisier, especially at low revs under load, and invariably get more so as they age and the gears wear. They pay back in other respects though, particularly in acceleration and climb ability per unit of consumption.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,253
3,197
The latest Panasonic 36 v as fitted to Flyers and others, getting rave reviews.....Panasonic even have a powerful hub motor now as fitted to latest KTM
I don't know why the 36v unit should be any better, just because it is 36v. Unless the power delivery characteristics has been changed through a software modification, then it should be more or less the same. The same end result, if there is any difference, could have been achieved by Panasonic using the existing 24 V supply. This just makes me think that it is a marketing bandwagon thing. Plus, it now creates two different standard of battery for essentially the same motor which can't be good for battery prices or the consumer.

I can't wait for 48 V. It's the future.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,491
30,805
I can't wait for 48 V. It's the future.
That would be a 13 series cell battery.

While higher voltages confer certain technical advantages and a copper content economic advantage, lithium battery prices completely overturn the economic situation. 26 volts with 7 series cells makes much more sense for the consumer than 37 volts with 10 series cells, and 18 volts with 5 series cells is worth investigating further.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
I dont know really, but aren't 36v more efficient, stronger? 48 v already here and already in the mainstream, BioniX for a start
 

benjy_a

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 25, 2009
417
26
That would be a 13 series cell battery.

While higher voltages confer certain technical advantages and a copper content economic advantage, lithium battery prices completely overturn the economic situation. 26 volts with 7 series cells makes much more sense for the consumer than 37 volts with 10 series cells, and 18 volts with 5 series cells is worth investigating further.
Waiting to stand corrected but...

Surely Flecc the problem being that lower voltages require a higher current to achieve the same power? My point not being just in relation to the size of wiring but rather the quality (c rating) of a lower voltage battery being able to supply a sustained high current. You also need a higher current controller with associated robust components.

To run a maximum legal power system at 18v would need something like a 30A controller with appropriate wiring and a battery capable of 2c discharge. A 20Ah battery at 18v will be no cheaper than a 36v 10Ah so I don't see any advantage.

Higher voltage = lower current = lower capacity battery = lower discharge capability required.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,253
3,197
I dont know really, but aren't 36v more efficient, stronger? 48 v already here and already in the mainstream, BioniX for a start
Theoretically, higher voltages offer greater efficiency as the current flowing through the wires will be less for any given power. (Power = Volts x Amps. So higher Volts = less Amps for a given power) Also, losses in cables and motor windings = Amps x Amps x Resistance, so it is advantageous to keep the Amps as low as possible.

Having said that, resistance, particularly with a Panasonic or Bosch motor is going to be low because the battery and motor unit are practically one with no cable runs. Therefore, if resistance is very low, the effect of reducing Amps through higher Voltages is going to be negligible in terms of efficiency gains. Pointless exercise.
 
Last edited:
Apr 19, 2011
211
27
Inaldo thanks for your 'undercover shopper' review. Please wear a name tag when you next call.. the milk is often off!

I was most pleased to read your thoughts on our chief Viking technician Lee Belchamber. He really is brilliant technically (left me behind a year ago)... and has an extraordinary ability to gently persuade long-suffering partners to have a go too.

Portobello store is almost there - opening in a week or so. We're all a bit puffed out by the long distance shop-fit, but its looking great... we've aimed to create the best e-bike store in the UK (aim high so that there's a chance it will be just about OK). Rolling roads and big screens feature. Formal launch end of Sept... waiting on free dates for the very few celebs I know, but if politicians and eco/e-bike warriors bore you it still might be worth a visit... Lily Allen and her mates breakfast in the cafe opposite! (have you ever had avocado+poached eggs+smoked salmon on good toast on an electric bike before?... more than the sum of its parts... just like a Koga)
 
Last edited:

flash

Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2009
196
84
69
CW12 Congleton
Inaldo thanks for your 'undercover shopper' review. Please wear a name tag when you next call.. the milk is often off!

I was most pleased to read your thoughts on our chief Viking technician Lee Belchamber. He really is brilliant technically (left me behind a year ago)... and has an extraordinary ability to gently persuade long-suffering partners to have a go too.

Portobello store is almost there - opening in a week or so. We're all a bit puffed out by the long distance shop-fit, but its looking great... we've aimed to create the best e-bike store in the UK (aim high so that there's a chance it will be just about OK). Rolling roads and big screens feature. Formal launch end of Sept... waiting on free dates for the very few celebs I know, but if politicians and eco/e-bike warriors bore you it still might be worth a visit... Lily Allen and her mates breakfast in the cafe opposite! (have you ever had avocado+poached eggs+smoked salmon on good toast on an electric bike before?... more than the sum of its parts... just like a Koga)
I have also visited justebikes I came across the shop by chance. Although the bikes were beyond my budget. James insisted I try all his demonstrators. Well worth a visit and I will certainly call in his new shop. When circumstances allow Justebikes will be the first place I will look to replace my aging powabyke