Modifying e-bike

my.motion

Pedelecer
Jun 26, 2009
115
0
Hi
I am newbie, I have just bought a powacycle milan2, this has a rear motor I am looking to add a front motor (one sold on ebay), I would like advise on this, does this double the speed to 30mph assuming each wheel does 15mph? Is this recommended to have two wheel drive bike? Will the speed cancel out etc? I am also looking at ways to pump up my milan2 powacyle any advice would highly be appriciated.

Thanks
motion
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
No, it will still only do 15 mph, but will accelerate faster and climb hills with little or no pedalling. You would need another battery as well, since your present SLA battery might not deliver enough for both motors.

Your bike would also be very illegal, officially falling into the low powered moped class, since e-bikes are limited to 200 Watts in the UK and 250 Watts in the EU. That means it should be type approved, registered and taxed with a rear number plate have third party insurance and you would need a moped driving licence if you are not already qualified.

The Milan is a low powered bike and very heavy because of it's SLA battery type, so I'd suggest it's not the right basis for improved performance.
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Django

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 11, 2007
453
1
Your bike would also be very illegal, officially falling into the low powered moped class, since e-bikes are limited to 200 Watts in the UK and 250 Watts in the EU.
Of course, strictly speaking, if you pull a wheelie every time you see a copper, only 250 Watts will be used for propelling the bike so you should be OK . . . . . . . :D

(If there are any children reading, please, please don't take that seriously)
 

my.motion

Pedelecer
Jun 26, 2009
115
0
thanks Flecc, Django the front wheel motor will come with its own battery, hence i guess it will only be illegal if both batteries are used at the same time. But as you said this is not the way to improve the hence, will take your advice and keep the milan2 simple. On another note is it possible to modify and install a lighter battery with batter performance. Where can I get such a battery pls

Thanks and Regards

motion
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
A battery change won't improve the performance, except for a slight improvement in hill climbing due to the weight reduction.

You could probably get an eZee polymer battery to fit into the same space on your Milan 2, and with 10 Ah the range would improve considerably. It's also very much lighter at 3.3 kilos. However there are several problems.

1) You would have to make up mountings for it and arrange some way of adapting the connections.

2) You would also have to buy a new charger to suit.

3) There's the high cost, £415 for the battery plus more for the charger, I think it's £125 currently. Since that £540 is far more than the £399 your bike cost, it's just not worth it. Lithium batteries are always far more expensive than the SLA one on your Milan which is only £129 to replace.

I think it's best you resign yourself to the Milan as it is, maybe at sometime starting again with a different bike for better performance. It's no accident that the best e-bikes are mainly well over £1000, though you could have done far better for as little as £699. At the Milan £399 price point you will only ever get old technology and limited performance.
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my.motion

Pedelecer
Jun 26, 2009
115
0
the reasons i went for milan2 was just for trial commute run and also the 15mph limit on all e-bikes regardless of make put me of an expensive bike. I am currently commuting to my work place that is about 13 miles one way, mainly flat road (if i do this for one month i would have saved £60 per month) and the battery is quite good so far only consuming one bar one way. My average speed has been 12mph which is close to the 15mph limit anyway. So, how will a better performning bike be any better as the speed limit is all 15mph. Maybe the £699 will beat milan2 on durabiltylong lasting and weight, but maybe not major differences in terms of getting to your destination. what do you think from your experiences. I can still sell milan2 for half the price 3 months later (by then I would have saved £180 on travel). What would you suggest the next upgrade should be for 599-650 price range that would i would see major differences from my milan2.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
The 250 watt rating is just a legal nicety for the regulations, these motors have peak powers from about 300 watts to 700 watts and the more powerful bikes can average 15 mph or more even though they don't assist above that. More power means keeping the speed high in adverse conditions like hill climbing and together with the downhill speeds produce that high average. It's also easier to pedal assist a lighter bike to higher speeds.

One bike I'd suggest for you is the one detailed in this thread, bought by someone who used to have a Powacycle Salisbury of similar power to your Milan.

From 720 cycles on ebay
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fishingpaul

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 24, 2007
874
86
the reasons i went for milan2 was just for trial commute run and also the 15mph limit on all e-bikes regardless of make put me of an expensive bike. I am currently commuting to my work place that is about 13 miles one way, mainly flat road (if i do this for one month i would have saved £60 per month) and the battery is quite good so far only consuming one bar one way. My average speed has been 12mph which is close to the 15mph limit anyway. So, how will a better performning bike be any better as the speed limit is all 15mph. Maybe the £699 will beat milan2 on durabiltylong lasting and weight, but maybe not major differences in terms of getting to your destination. what do you think from your experiences. I can still sell milan2 for half the price 3 months later (by then I would have saved £180 on travel). What would you suggest the next upgrade should be for 599-650 price range that would i would see major differences from my milan2.
If your route is mainly flat there would be little difference in performance,even with hills there are only small differences in speed beetween electric bikes,the main difference you would notice is the weight ,but with lighter weights come dearer lithium batteries and this can account for the big leap in price. if you move up to the £650 price range its almost all bikes with lithium batteries,the replacement batteries are £300+ and at the cheaper end of the market they may not be very reliable,there have been many problems with lithium batterys on electric bikes in the recent past,some lithium batteries only lasted around 8 months,however the big names in e bikes seem to have now sorted this problem out, but small sellers on ebay etc may still be using the older short lived lithium batteries,i would look for a years guarantee on the battery.
 

torrent99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2008
395
36
Highgate, London
the reasons i went for milan2 was just for trial commute run and also the 15mph limit on all e-bikes regardless of make put me of an expensive bike. I am currently commuting to my work place that is about 13 miles one way, mainly flat road (if i do this for one month i would have saved £60 per month) and the battery is quite good so far only consuming one bar one way. My average speed has been 12mph which is close to the 15mph limit anyway. So, how will a better performning bike be any better as the speed limit is all 15mph. Maybe the £699 will beat milan2 on durabiltylong lasting and weight, but maybe not major differences in terms of getting to your destination. what do you think from your experiences. I can still sell milan2 for half the price 3 months later (by then I would have saved £180 on travel). What would you suggest the next upgrade should be for 599-650 price range that would i would see major differences from my milan2.
Motion,

Was that you I chatted to on the Holloway Road yesterday?

If so you'll have seen what a 2007 Wisper can do as compared to your Milan2.

Last week I was in a similar position next to a Synergie Mistral. That costs in that 599-650 range, and it was JUST a tad faster than my Wisper (though the guy was pedalling & I was not, and the Wisper was faster starting off)

Cheers

Steve
 

my.motion

Pedelecer
Jun 26, 2009
115
0
Hey Steve,

Indeed that was me!! Yes I did see what a wisper does, you have a sharp brain dude. Anyway, I will keep checking out various ebikes along holloway/archway road(only seen one ,yours, in the last two days), I will also visit that camden bike shop when I get the time.

I wish my Milan2 can go fast on manual, but the gears keep going 'loose' at certain speeds, i guess that is the cut off.

Is your wipsper easy to pedal? At the moment, every man and his dog is cycling faster than me and can't keep up with them however hard i cycled. I cycle faster on my manual MTB though

Regards

Motion
 

Patrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2009
303
1
Is your wipsper easy to pedal? At the moment, every man and his dog is cycling faster than me and can't keep up with them however hard i cycled. I cycle faster on my manual MTV though
While you're checking out bikes it would be worth trying a Powabyke X6, it's more than your current budget for an upgrade but at speeds over 16mph (when the motor cuts out) it does a very good impression of a manual bike. On the flat I can get mine up to shade under 20mph, with a slight downhill slope I can get it up to 25mph (the top speed for my commute stands at 33mph, but given the right hill it could coast a lot faster).

Patrick
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
I agree with Patrick the Powabyke X6 would be good for performance, but it uses a very small battery that might prove to be a problem on your 13 mile one way commute. Some get very slightly less than that range from it, and even if it was enough, you'd have to fully charge at both ends.
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torrent99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2008
395
36
Highgate, London
Hey Steve,

Indeed that was me!! Yes I did see what a wisper does, you have a sharp brain dude. Anyway, I will keep checking out various ebikes along holloway/archway road(only seen one ,yours, in the last two days), I will also visit that camden bike shop when I get the time.

I wish my Milan2 can go fast on manual, but the gears keep going 'loose' at certain speeds, i guess that is the cut off.

Is your wipsper easy to pedal? At the moment, every man and his dog is cycling faster than me and can't keep up with them however hard i cycled. I cycle faster on my manual MTB though

Regards

Motion
Motion,

Well the rules say something like the bike can only assist up to 15mpg, and different bikes behave in different ways when you get up to that magic 15mph. Some have lots of power at 15mph and none at 15.1mph (not exact numbers but you get the picture), others start dropping off the power at say 14mph so that by the time you get to 15mph there is no assistance provided.

In practice the 2nd situation is often achieved by having the max throttle set so that if "no load" was applied the wheel would spin at 15mph, so as you approach 15mph you get less and less power. You will see reference to "de-restricting" bikes and some bikes (like mine) let you do that for off-road ;) use by pressing a button, this gives me the full power, which provides assist up to 17-18mph.

Above the max assist speed you are essentially pedalling the bike without power.

Anyway that's probably not what you're asking!!
I suspect you are asking what the bike is like to pedal without power, which is the case when your battery runs out or you go faster than "15"mph. In which case for most bikes (including the Wisper) the answer is it's pretty hard. So you can get the bikes up to 20mph or even 30mph, but it requires more effort than a "normal" bike would (or a nice hill).


There are a number of notable exceptions to this though, of which the best known are bikes powered by the Tongxin motor (for example the Cytronex bikes). This motor uses rollers instead of internal gears, and is known to have a much lower rolling resistance than other motors such as the Suzhou Bafang than the Wisper uses. However it trades that for not being as suitable for scootering along on throttle only and in particular standing starts. If you are an otherwise fit/healthy cyclist who just wants to take a bit of the effort out, then these types can make an excellent choice.

In terms of difficulty pedalling without pedalling you can group bikes into 3 catagories (in order of decreasing pedalling difficulty):

* Motors without a freewheel. Hard to pedal because you have to turn the motor. (I suspect but don't know that your Milan2 might be in this class)
* Motors with internal gears and a freewheel. You still have to turn the gears even if the freewheel means you don't have to turn the motor. (the Wisper, Mistral etc fall into this category)
* Tongxin based bikes. Just like motors with internal gears and freewheel, only the gears are rollers and have much less friction. Are there any others with low friction like this?

I haven't included "drive thru the chain" based bikes such as the excellent Panasonic powered Khalkoff bikes in the above discussion. I'll leave that to others with more knowledge than me!

If your commute is 13miles each way I'd heartily recommend the Wisper bikes if you can stretch to them, aftersales support can only be described as astoundingly good. Otherwise the Synergie Mistral has many fans too.

Cheers

Steve
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
* Tongxin based bikes. Just like motors with internal gears and freewheel, only the gears are rollers and have much less friction. Are there any others with low friction like this?
Tongxin Nano is the only one in production, other manufacturers seemingly making no attempt to copy, possibly nervous about long term reliability.

The NuVinci CVT gear hub uses free rolling large steel balls on a smooth track for it's transmission, but that's supplemented by a clever fluid which temporarily hardens under the pressure of ball on track, preventing slip at that junction. The Tongxin electric motor probably couldn't be swimming in that fluid for electrical reasons.
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Patrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2009
303
1
* Motors without a freewheel. Hard to pedal because you have to turn the motor. (I suspect but don't know that your Milan2 might be in this class)
* Motors with internal gears and a freewheel. You still have to turn the gears even if the freewheel means you don't have to turn the motor. (the Wisper, Mistral etc fall into this category)
* Tongxin based bikes. Just like motors with internal gears and freewheel, only the gears are rollers and have much less friction. Are there any others with low friction like this?
I think the Powabyke fall into a 4th category, their freewheels are positioned so that both the gears and the motor are isolated when your not using the motor, so you've just got the resistance of the freewheel.

The best advice I san suggest for the OP is to try as many e-bike as you can before you upgrade :)
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
* Motors without a freewheel. Hard to pedal because you have to turn the motor.
This is the conventional wisdom, but I'm starting to question it. One of my bikes has a Crystalyte hub motor, direct drive with no freewheel. You can feel the resistance if you turn it by hand, but in practice it doesn't make a lot of drag.

I've just been out this evening riding with someone with a conventional bike (no electric bits, so very quaint) and it was evenly matched when we did some rolling down hill comparison tests.

Nick
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
I'd agree with that Nick, true also of the BionX and reputedly the Sparta motor as well, both direct drive. I think most of us are referring to the near universal internally geared motors though, where the drag can be very real in the majority which have the orbital gears permanently engaged.
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Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
Yes, people talk of the "cogging torque" to turn a direct drive unpowered motor, because it takes a torque to overcome the attraction/repulsion of the magnets. But the energy you put in on the upstroke should be returned on the downstroke, so although it feels like drag when turning it slowly, the net effect at high speed is close to zero.

Nick
 

OneWayTraffic

Pedelecer
Apr 7, 2009
44
0
Yes, people talk of the "cogging torque" to turn a direct drive unpowered motor, because it takes a torque to overcome the attraction/repulsion of the magnets. But the energy you put in on the upstroke should be returned on the downstroke, so although it feels like drag when turning it slowly, the net effect at high speed is close to zero.

Nick
I think cogging torque varies an awful lot from motor to motor. It all depends on the build quality. Apparently (according to ebikes.ca) Crystalytes have enough variation even within motors of the same type so the cogging torque can either be imperceptible, or feel like you're riding with a flat.

Disconnecting the controller sometimes helps.
 

my.motion

Pedelecer
Jun 26, 2009
115
0
de-restricting milan2

Thanks to all posters, Does anyone know if it is possible to derestrict milan2 powacycle please?

Maybe unplug some cable in the controller??

Thanks
motion