Newby to the excellent Forum

[DCB510]

Hi We (Ie I and my dearly beloved) are both in our 80's and have cycled many many miles on bikes and laterly our many tandems. - But... we are reaching the point where we need a "bit" of help on the hills. My wife has heart trouble and can't work as hard as she did and I just can't make up the difference. We live in Sheffield which is quite hilly, we can manage quite well on the flat but the hills really take it out of us. We (ie I ) plan to install a mid electric motor to our winter tandem a Viking Saratago.

As I understand it all the mid motor kits come with a right had chain wheel. Fitting the motor to the front crankset is problematic in that the tandem existing front chain wheel is on the left rather than the right driving a similar size chain wheel on the left in the stoker position. The right hand stoker chain wheel is a triple standard front chainset (24,32,42) driving a standard 8 shimano 8-34 cassette. I need to source two similar if not not identical chain wheels, one for the motor to drive and one to be driven in the stoker position. A second chainwheel (or maybe a double) to drive the rear chain. I also need to ensure that all the wires are long enough to fit a tandem rather than a standard bike.

I have done all my own bike and car repairs for over 70 years, and have yet to be beaten with any task. I have a well equipped workshop with all the necessary extractors, spanners socket wrenches, and similar tackle.

I have read with interest your many forum member posts, but no one seems to have tackled this problem exactly or maybe I've missed the post.

Any help or advice would be welcome.

 

[sjpt]

There are several downsides to mid-motors, but hub drives have a lot to offer in simplicity.
The main upside of the brank motor is the motor takes advantage of the gears; but often you limit the gear choice when installing a mid-drive. A strong rear hub motor may be your best choice.

We have a front drive Viking Aviemore. The XF07 is only just enough for Winchester; probably not enough for Sheffield. It was all that was legally available when we bought. Several of the downsides of front hub don't apply to tandems because there is a greater proportion of weight on the front wheel, and having two wheel drive is often beneficial. (We have just moved on from that to an Ecosmo as it is easier to mount.)

We bought form Woosh and they made sure all the wires were suitable length for our tandem.

 

[saneagle]

Hi We (Ie I and my dearly beloved) are both in our 80's and have cycled many many miles on bikes and laterly our many tandems. - But... we are reaching the point where we need a "bit" of help on the hills. My wife has heart trouble and can't work as hard as she did and I just can't make up the difference. We live in Sheffield which is quite hilly, we can manage quite well on the flat but the hills really take it out of us. We (ie I ) plan to install a mid electric motor to our winter tandem a Viking Saratago.

As I understand it all the mid motor kits come with a right had chain wheel. Fitting the motor to the front crankset is problematic in that the tandem existing front chain wheel is on the left rather than the right driving a similar size chain wheel on the left in the stoker position. The right hand stoker chain wheel is a triple standard front chainset (24,32,42) driving a standard 8 shimano 8-34 cassette. I need to source two similar if not not identical chain wheels, one for the motor to drive and one to be driven in the stoker position. A second chainwheel (or maybe a double) to drive the rear chain. I also need to ensure that all the wires are long enough to fit a tandem rather than a standard bike.

I have done all my own bike and car repairs for over 70 years, and have yet to be beaten with any task. I have a well equipped workshop with all the necessary extractors, spanners socket wrenches, and similar tackle.

I have read with interest your many forum member posts, but no one seems to have tackled this problem exactly or maybe I've missed the post.

Any help or advice would be welcome.

It's not going to work, so forget a crank motor. A hub-motor would probably be better anyway.

Have you got one of those eccentric bottom brackets to adjust the front chain tension? If so, it's another reason a crank motor won't fit.

 

[thelarkbox]

Fwiw i spent a good while 'researching' ebikes before my plunge. Prior to landing in here almost everything i had read had given me the impression that mid drive solutions were the best, after all all the expensive bikes have them.. ?

tbh still not 100% convinced (at the time), i opted for a rear wheel hub drive kit to retrofit my current bike at a fraction of the cost a new mid drive bike would have set me back. Over 2 years later i still get a silly grin on my face rolling up hills with nominal effort

 

[Jodel]

As a team, we are a bit younger than you and are still (just) in our 60’s. Like many others, we reached the point where a bit of extra help would make a big difference to our tandeming experience. We found that fitting a motor absolutely transforms the way you use the bike – hills / headwinds are no longer an issue.

Our tandem ‘fleet’ consists of an Orbit Velocity with a Woosh DWG22C hub motor and a Thorn Explorer with a Tongshen TSDZ2B mid-drive – both 48 volt. As with most things in life, there are good and bad points for each solution. I have posted a couple of threads where I’ve given some feedback and you might find them useful to have a read over:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/tongshen-tsdz2b-and-a-thorn-explorer-tandem.48929/#post-748580
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/orbit-tandem-woosh-dwg22c-48v-rear-hub-kit.40584/
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/wooshing-along-on-a-dwg22c-–-3-000-miles-and-counting-….45644/

I was able to fit a left hand timing chain to our Thorn with a bit of fiddling. BUT - we have a 14 speed Rohloff Speedhub hub on that machine, so only need a single chainring on the drive side. (Thorns are actually supplied from new with the timing chain on the RHS if a Rohloff is fitted as OEM). The Tongshen motor does allow for two chainrings if required. I don’t think you can fit anything smaller than about a 38 tooth though as it would foul the motor casing. Some aftermarket adapters might offer a solution?

My experience is that the hub motor is quite noticeably more powerful than the mid-drive and has been totally reliable for several years and about 6K miles. We’ve only put about 500 miles on the mid-drive motor so far, so too early to comment on reliability. The received wisdom on the forum is that hub-motors tend to be more reliable overall.

Very general comments on each type based on my own experience – there are lots more…..

Hub-motor good points:
1) More powerful
2) More reliable?
3) Low (no?) maintenance
4) The cadence sensing PAS suits my arthritic ankle more than the torque sensing PAS on the Tongshen mid-drive.
5) The Woosh hub motor kit was genuinely ‘plug and play’ with cable lengths long enough for a tandem.

Hub-motor bad points:
1) Puncture repair / wheel changing more difficult (solved by fitting Marathon Plus tyres – I’ve never punctured with MP tyres over thousands of miles). I also fitted torque arms to my hub-motor which further complicates wheel changing.
2) They don’t like sustained low speed / low rpm operation – so we tend to stay above about 8mph. That said, only on hills more than about 20% does the speed drop off to around 5mph, which is OK for short periods, but could potentially ‘cook’ the motor / controller if continued for long periods.
3) For tandem use, expect to replace the supplied rim & spokes with something like a Ryde Andra / Sputnik and lace it as a single cross with Sapim Strong spokes. The ‘Grin’ website in Canada has a good video on building hub-motor wheels. If your tandem has the usual 145mm size rear spacing between the dropouts, then you can build the wheel with minimal dishing and use spacing washers to shift the hub over in the dropouts to get a good chainline.
4) You may need to realign the disk mounting (if fitted) to maintain the correct spacing.

Mid-motor good points:
1) You can gear right down to very low speed to keep the motor spinning at optimum rpm. 1st gear on our Thorn is about 18” and 4.5 mph at 90rpm cadence. Even at lower power settings, we can climb any hill we’ve encountered at that speed. On the hub motor, you try to charge up a hill to keep the speed / efficiency up. On the mid-motor, it’s the opposite and you gear down and twiddle away at low speeds.
2) Torque sensing gives very nice low speed control with no unexpected ‘surges’ from the motor.
3) A more ‘natural’ cycling experience as you need to put more effort in on the climbs.
4) Easier to remove rear wheel for punctures / maintenance.

Mid-motor bad points:
1) Less powerful than hub-motor
2) Probably less reliable?
3) More difficult to fit to a tandem

Everyone has different requirements and priorities, so it is difficult to give an absolute recommendation. Both of our tandems actually work very well for their intended purpose, but if I could only have one type, I’d pick the hub motor over the mid-drive. Keep us posted on how you get on.

 

[saneagle]

As a team, we are a bit younger than you and are still (just) in our 60’s. Like many others, we reached the point where a bit of extra help would make a big difference to our tandeming experience. We found that fitting a motor absolutely transforms the way you use the bike – hills / headwinds are no longer an issue.

Our tandem ‘fleet’ consists of an Orbit Velocity with a Woosh DWG22C hub motor and a Thorn Explorer with a Tongshen TSDZ2B mid-drive – both 48 volt. As with most things in life, there are good and bad points for each solution. I have posted a couple of threads where I’ve given some feedback and you might find them useful to have a read over:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/tongshen-tsdz2b-and-a-thorn-explorer-tandem.48929/#post-748580
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/orbit-tandem-woosh-dwg22c-48v-rear-hub-kit.40584/
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/wooshing-along-on-a-dwg22c-–-3-000-miles-and-counting-….45644/

I was able to fit a left hand timing chain to our Thorn with a bit of fiddling. BUT - we have a 14 speed Rohloff Speedhub hub on that machine, so only need a single chainring on the drive side. (Thorns are actually supplied from new with the timing chain on the RHS if a Rohloff is fitted as OEM). The Tongshen motor does allow for two chainrings if required. I don’t think you can fit anything smaller than about a 38 tooth though as it would foul the motor casing. Some aftermarket adapters might offer a solution?

My experience is that the hub motor is quite noticeably more powerful than the mid-drive and has been totally reliable for several years and about 6K miles. We’ve only put about 500 miles on the mid-drive motor so far, so too early to comment on reliability. The received wisdom on the forum is that hub-motors tend to be more reliable overall.

Very general comments on each type based on my own experience – there are lots more…..

Hub-motor good points:
1) More powerful
2) More reliable?
3) Low (no?) maintenance
4) The cadence sensing PAS suits my arthritic ankle more than the torque sensing PAS on the Tongshen mid-drive.
5) The Woosh hub motor kit was genuinely ‘plug and play’ with cable lengths long enough for a tandem.

Hub-motor bad points:
1) Puncture repair / wheel changing more difficult (solved by fitting Marathon Plus tyres – I’ve never punctured with MP tyres over thousands of miles). I also fitted torque arms to my hub-motor which further complicates wheel changing.
2) They don’t like sustained low speed / low rpm operation – so we tend to stay above about 8mph. That said, only on hills more than about 20% does the speed drop off to around 5mph, which is OK for short periods, but could potentially ‘cook’ the motor / controller if continued for long periods.
3) For tandem use, expect to replace the supplied rim & spokes with something like a Ryde Andra / Sputnik and lace it as a single cross with Sapim Strong spokes. The ‘Grin’ website in Canada has a good video on building hub-motor wheels. If your tandem has the usual 145mm size rear spacing between the dropouts, then you can build the wheel with minimal dishing and use spacing washers to shift the hub over in the dropouts to get a good chainline.
4) You may need to realign the disk mounting (if fitted) to maintain the correct spacing.

Mid-motor good points:
1) You can gear right down to very low speed to keep the motor spinning at optimum rpm. 1st gear on our Thorn is about 18” and 4.5 mph at 90rpm cadence. Even at lower power settings, we can climb any hill we’ve encountered at that speed. On the hub motor, you try to charge up a hill to keep the speed / efficiency up. On the mid-motor, it’s the opposite and you gear down and twiddle away at low speeds.
2) Torque sensing gives very nice low speed control with no unexpected ‘surges’ from the motor.
3) A more ‘natural’ cycling experience as you need to put more effort in on the climbs.
4) Easier to remove rear wheel for punctures / maintenance.

Mid-motor bad points:
1) Less powerful than hub-motor
2) Probably less reliable?
3) More difficult to fit to a tandem

Everyone has different requirements and priorities, so it is difficult to give an absolute recommendation. Both of our tandems actually work very well for their intended purpose, but if I could only have one type, I’d pick the hub motor over the mid-drive. Keep us posted on how you get on.

You have a crappy speed control controller with your hub-motor, which is giving you the high power at low speed problem you describe. Change it to a KT controller that allows you to adjust the power for a much better riding experience with controllable power. In other words, it's not the hub-motors that's causing the issue, so you're incorrect to say, "They don't like........". That's a controller issue and is easily solvable.

Also, to stop urban myths propagating. When you get a puncture, it's extremely rare that you need to remove the wheel to fix it. All you do is pull the tyre off one side and pull the tube out to patch the puncture. You don't need to waste money buying new tubes. A patch kit can be had for £1. It takes just a few minutes to patch a tube, and it's a lot less work than removing the wheel, tyre and tube.

I just replaced a worn tyre on my bike. I only had punctures once on it in 11 years, and that was snake bites from when the pressure was too low and I hit a bump. That was about 7 years ago. When I took the tyre off, I found 6 patches in the inner tube, so there must have been 4 when I built the bike. I had the chance to replace the tube, but I figured that it's lasted 11 years like that, so should be good for ever after, so I left in on the bike. Having patches on your tube is nothing to worry about as long as you learn uow to do them.

 

[Jodel]

Saneagle - I normally agree with most observations / advice you give, but I have tried a KT controller on my solo (it is still fitted) and I just didn’t get on with the current control setting, even though I persevered with it for quite some time. I changed it over to speed control and much prefer it. I like speed control (combined with cadence sensing PAS) as it ‘automatically’ adjusts to changes in headwind / gradient / dog-walkers obstructing the cycle path. On the KT LCD3 display, I can see the controller increasing power as required to maintain the desired speed and that suits my use-case more than current control. If baulked by a pedestrian / dog-walker, by simply turning the cranks a few degrees the motor chimes in and whisks me back up to my cruising speed with minimal fuss and less stress on my knackered ankle if I get caught in the ‘wrong’ gear.

The DWG22C motor is probably a bit overkill for a solo (I’m only about 70Kg) and the lower % power settings on the KT controller may be marginally better than the original Lishui controller.

Low speed control is fine too when used with brake lever cut-offs as you can gently coordinate your own effort and modulate the input from the motor. Feet-up U-turns on a tandem can be challenging and the odd nudge from the motor can actually be quite helpful in that scenario.

For tandem use however (with an all up weight of about 160Kg) I’d pick the speed control Lishui over the speed control KT as Woosh seem to have got the settings pretty much spot on. The one area where I think the KT is clearly better is in how it reacts quicker to minor variations in speed on an undulating road. The Lishui seems to need about 1 – 1.5 mph speed change before it responds, whereas the KT seems to be faster – say within about 0.5 mph.

I don’t think there is a single solution to suit everyone, but speed control is my own preference.

Again, just personal preference, I'd rather swap out the tube and repair the puncture at home (especially if it is raining). Each to his own. I really don't like the dead 'feel' of Marathon Plus tyres, but I can live with it as they are about as puncture proof as you can get - and not getting punctures is quite a high priority for me regardless of the ease (or otherwise) of repair.

 

[saneagle]

Saneagle - I normally agree with most observations / advice you give, but I have tried a KT controller on my solo (it is still fitted) and I just didn’t get on with the current control setting, even though I persevered with it for quite some time. I changed it over to speed control and much prefer it. I like speed control (combined with cadence sensing PAS) as it ‘automatically’ adjusts to changes in headwind / gradient / dog-walkers obstructing the cycle path. On the KT LCD3 display, I can see the controller increasing power as required to maintain the desired speed and that suits my use-case more than current control. If baulked by a pedestrian / dog-walker, by simply turning the cranks a few degrees the motor chimes in and whisks me back up to my cruising speed with minimal fuss and less stress on my knackered ankle if I get caught in the ‘wrong’ gear.

The DWG22C motor is probably a bit overkill for a solo (I’m only about 70Kg) and the lower % power settings on the KT controller may be marginally better than the original Lishui controller.

Low speed control is fine too when used with brake lever cut-offs as you can gently coordinate your own effort and modulate the input from the motor. Feet-up U-turns on a tandem can be challenging and the odd nudge from the motor can actually be quite helpful in that scenario.

For tandem use however (with an all up weight of about 160Kg) I’d pick the speed control Lishui over the speed control KT as Woosh seem to have got the settings pretty much spot on. The one area where I think the KT is clearly better is in how it reacts quicker to minor variations in speed on an undulating road. The Lishui seems to need about 1 – 1.5 mph speed change before it responds, whereas the KT seems to be faster – say within about 0.5 mph.

I don’t think there is a single solution to suit everyone, but speed control is my own preference.

Again, just personal preference, I'd rather swap out the tube and repair the puncture at home (especially if it is raining). Each to his own. I really don't like the dead 'feel' of Marathon Plus tyres, but I can live with it as they are about as puncture proof as you can get - and not getting punctures is quite a high priority for me regardless of the ease (or otherwise) of repair.

OP was explaining his speed control as a negative point. I was showing him how to eliminate it.

If you always want maximum power, and find your own way to tame it, speed control is fine. It works very well when you have a low power controller, but the higher the power you run, the more unmanageable it becomes. Also, if you ride in company, it can be a right pain because you can't match speeds easily. In summary, the differences between the two systems comes down to whether you want to manage the power and speed or whether you're happy with letting the controller manage it.

Incidentally, all the things you didn't like about current control could be fixed with a boost button or throttle, which would let you get max power instantly whenever you wanted it by choice rather than getting it when you don't want it as well.