Ongoing reliability of Kalkhoff/Focus Impulse 2 motors

[EddiePJ]

@redalexx

From sitting on the fence watching this thread, and to quote what you have stated.

In the space of 557 days (80 weeks) a total of 260,069 motors have been produced, which equals 3,268 motors per week, based upon a five day working week, or 654 Motors per day.

Based upon the above manufacturing figures that you have stated, what percentage failure rate are you looking at, or hoping to see?

From what I can see and in the scheme of things, it is must be just a handful and probably less than 0.01 percent.

As well meaning as it is intended, the spread sheet data is flawed in that you have given contributors anonymity. You cannot gain accurate data by doing so. Even without contributor details, the sheet is still meaningless, as you have not listed manufacturing run information. You could have a list of people contributing, but the percentage failure rate could in fact be almost zero. The spread sheet is totally one sided, and not representative.


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[Templogin]

But you are not taking into account the number that have failed and are not on the spreadsheet. How many people have just dumped the bike in the shed and decided not to bother? How many people are just doing really small mileages and haven't given the motor a real test? Is it the perfect bike for very low mileages? If there is a recommended small mileage per year then it would be better that the vendor told the buyer.

The only people who know the failure rate of Kalkhoff fitted with Impulse 2 motors, or other bikes fitted with Impulse 2 motors, for sure is 50 Cycles, and I am fairly sure that they aren't going to tell us. They can come on here and defend their record any time they like. I am sure that they will be following the thread. Construe what you will from their absence.

If the spreadsheet had 10 times as many people who said that they only had one failed motor then I would tend to say that it might just have been a bad batch, but where you are getting 2, 3, 4, and 5 motors failing on the same bike, there is obviously something intrinsically amiss, especially when there was a later "improved" model of motor used as a fix, which also failed.

As far as anonymity is concerned, why not? We have already seen one person who suddenly stopped posting on this thread in some sort of fear.

When we are talking about the sort of money that Impulse 2 motored bikes are fitted with, I don't want to be throwing money away. I want as much information as possible, be that from manufacturers, vendors or buyers. I will make up my own mind from the information that I receive.

This must be a public relations nightmare for 50 Cycles, but it is after all of their own making. There is the possibility that all bikes fitted with Impulse 2.x motors, including the Toba, will be tainted by the experience of owners on this forum. I wouldn't have one given.

 

[Danidl]

But you are not taking into account the number that have failed and are not on the spreadsheet. How many people have just dumped the bike in the shed and decided not to bother? How many people are just doing really small mileages and haven't given the motor a real test? Is it the perfect bike for very low mileages? If there is a recommended small mileage per year then it would be better that the vendor told the buyer.

The only people who know the failure rate of Kalkhoff fitted with Impulse 2 motors, or other bikes fitted with Impulse 2 motors, for sure is 50 Cycles, and I am fairly sure that they aren't going to tell us. They can come on here and defend their record any time they like. I am sure that they will be following the thread. Construe what you will from their absence.

If the spreadsheet had 10 times as many people who said that they only had one failed motor then I would tend to say that it might just have been a bad batch, but where you are getting 2, 3, 4, and 5 motors failing on the same bike, there is obviously something intrinsically amiss, especially when there was a later "improved" model of motor used as a fix, which also failed.

As far as anonymity is concerned, why not? We have already seen one person who suddenly stopped posting on this thread in some sort of fear.

When we are talking about the sort of money that Impulse 2 motored bikes are fitted with, I don't want to be throwing money away. I want as much information as possible, be that from manufacturers, vendors or buyers. I will make up my own mind from the information that I receive.

This must be a public relations nightmare for 50 Cycles, but it is after all of their own making. There is the possibility that all bikes fitted with Impulse 2.x motors, including the Toba, will be tainted by the experience of owners on this forum. I wouldn't have one given.

Hi not having one of these motors, I am reluctant to comment but there are a number of points being made which deserve comment.

1. It is very unlikely that a person who has spent 2K+ on a prestigious bike brand is going to meekly put it away in a shed.
2. If there is a population of people who by using the bike conservatively and therefore have no problem , superb, they are satisfied customers.
3. Without knowing the production and sales numbers it is not possible to determine whether there is any significant problem. The previous poster was correct, anonymous data collection without confirmation leads to error. Who can forget the Samsung battery problem of this year. ... Without realising that Samsung manufacturers 25% of all smartphones globally , and the problem affected only a handful.
4. If some users are breaking a number of motors after short time intervals, has there been any analysis on their cycling patterns?

 

[Templogin]

1. That entirely depends on whether they consider £2,000 to be a considerable sum, or it being worth their while returning the bike. On this thread people have mentioned long drives to the shop. Was there mention of an overnight stay being involved at one point?

2. Satisfied customers indeed, I can't argue with that.

3. Whilst there may be a small proportion of fails, each failure is potentially a customer who has lost a considerable sum and may want that rectified. If the shop were liable to costs attributable to the failure and not just the fix I am sure that there would be more effort in finding a solution that suited both the customer and the shop, rather than what appears to be just a case of fitting new motors until the warranty expires. This is not a great business model. I take on board that the Impulse 2 motor was "improved" in version 1.1, but this failed too. Regarding Samsung, would you keep any phone which was known to spontaneously combust in a few cases in your pocket? Manufacturers and the retail chain will try to keep the full extent of a problem quiet for as long as possible, if the potential of death isn't involved.

4. I am not aware of any survey being carried out on the riders cycling patterns, but it is a bike, what can they do but ride it? If there are limitations on rider weight, distance they can travel, in what weather conditions, phase of the moon or whatever, then the customer needs to be told before they pay out their money.

 

[Danidl]

1. That entirely depends on whether they consider £2,000 to be a considerable sum, or it being worth their while returning the bike. On this thread people have mentioned long drives to the shop. Was there mention of an overnight stay being involved at one point?

2. Satisfied customers indeed, I can't argue with that.

3. Whilst there may be a small proportion of fails, each failure is potentially a customer who has lost a considerable sum and may want that rectified. If the shop were liable to costs attributable to the failure and not just the fix I am sure that there would be more effort in finding a solution that suited both the customer and the shop, rather than what appears to be just a case of fitting new motors until the warranty expires. This is not a great business model. I take on board that the Impulse 2 motor was "improved" in version 1.1, but this failed too. Regarding Samsung, would you keep any phone which was known to spontaneously combust in a few cases in your pocket? Manufacturers and the retail chain will try to keep the full extent of a problem quiet for as long as possible, if the potential of death isn't involved.

4. I am not aware of any survey being carried out on the riders cycling patterns, but it is a bike, what can they do but ride it? If there are limitations on rider weight, distance they can travel, in what weather conditions, phase of the moon or whatever, then the customer needs to be told before they pay out their money.

In respect of item 1 yes I would consider 2k as a considerable sum and would demand satisation, And I would anticipate that the majority of market would think like me.

In respect to item 4 what I had in mind was more about dongles, using excessively high gears and demanding more torque, hill climbing, changing the front chaineset . Some of the discussion seems to be that some internals are not capable of withstanding the stresses., So that implies torque related pro Like I said I do not have one of these bikes

 

[Templogin]

I think that it would depend on how much the satisfaction would cost you in time and money. For one failed motor that might not be a fortune, for 2, 3, 4 etc., you might change your opinion. I live on a remote Scottish island and the thoughts of warranty claims on just about anything fills me with dread. Things often go in the skip that could possibly be repaired, admittedly not many £2,000 things.

Torque related issues have been mentioned and apparently it was a low torque part that was failing, and replaced by a plastic part in iImpulse 2 v1.1 motors.

I don't own one of these bikes either, but I think that we can both come to a conclusion based on what has been said on this and another thread as to the likelihood of disappointment ahead for the owners of these bikes. What we can't confirm is the proportion of failures.

 

[Perseus]

It is awkward as I declined to buy an ebike I wanted (Toba) almost entirely by the bad reports of the motor on this forum. Not entirely, because the bad reputation was confirmed by an independent trade review.

I have received good reports of the Impulse II motor from people who used the bike ten miles day on mostly the flat. However, even they complained about the after sales service of 50 Cycles. Also it appears that the chain stretches very quickly with the derailleur gears, and the brake pads wear out so quickly with the hydraulic brakes that it is best to buy spares when you purchase the bike.

Gawd knows why they chose dynamo lights?

Other people have said that 50 Cycles blamed the customer (them) returning a bike that didn't work. Altogether after my horrid experience with the Cyclamatic and without a three year warranty on the Toba (two years only) I had to decline buying an ebike as a too risky proposition.

By next year, I might have to buy one for health reasons. 50 Cycles is a short cycle ride from home with four other shops selling ebikes, Raleigh, Halfords, Giant and a small shop (which will not repair ebikes they sell).

 

[Roger R]

I am one of the people that has rep VBorted my motor failure in my Pro Connect 10. The engine was replaced after approx 1000 miles and I have done 800 on the new motor. So far no problems although I have to say I am very careful in terms of loading the motor and never go out of Eco. In fact on the flat I rarely use the motor and that is a testament to what a good 'normal' bike it is without the electric drive. This was one of the reasons I bought it with the dérailleur gears. As for all other parts of the bike, I have not had to touch the chain, gears or tyres. In fact I did not even have to inflate the tyres until about 1200 miles of use. So in conclusion a great overall bike that is let down by questionable motor quality

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

 

[nemesis]

I have now left behind the impulse motors and ride a Cube bike with the Bosch CX unit.The motor has been ridden very hard in all conditions for ten months derestricted and it still performs like new.It has performance and reliability.

 

[VictoryV]

I am one of the people that has rep VBorted my motor failure in my Pro Connect 10. The engine was replaced after approx 1000 miles and I have done 800 on the new motor. So far no problems although I have to say I am very careful in terms of loading the motor and never go out of Eco. In fact on the flat I rarely use the motor and that is a testament to what a good 'normal' bike it is without the electric drive. This was one of the reasons I bought it with the dérailleur gears. As for all other parts of the bike, I have not had to touch the chain, gears or tyres. In fact I did not even have to inflate the tyres until about 1200 miles of use. So in conclusion a great overall bike that is let down by questionable motor quality

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

That is almost like having to drive a new car in first gear at no more than 1000 rpm despite it being advertised with a 100mph top speed. The bike motor should be capable of taking any power humanly possible without damage. You are lucky you are able to ride without power where you live

 

[Templogin]

Or perhaps there should be some warning system if the motor is working outside its parameters. It can't be rocket science surely to have a warning light when the current draw is above x.

 

[Croxden]

My Bosch bikes have an indicator to say if I should change gear, so it can be done.

 

[Templogin]

Brilliant - thanks

 

[Roger R]

Agreed

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

 

[redalexx]

Based upon the above manufacturing figures that you have stated, what percentage failure rate are you looking at, or hoping to see?

From what I can see and in the scheme of things, it is must be just a handful and probably less than 0.01 percent.

Calculating a failure rate is rarely possible, I totally agree! So I decided to make it in a different way with a different data base. I just present statistics and information - everybody can use it and make its conclusion. www.pedelecmonitor.de

Thanks for your review and your statements, they are very helpful!

The only people who know the failure rate of Kalkhoff fitted with Impulse 2 motors, or other bikes fitted with Impulse 2 motors, for sure is 50 Cycles, and I am fairly sure that they aren't going to tell us.

The fact, that they offer another 2 year warranty on repaired or changed motors is an indication that there is or was a major problem.

4. If some users are breaking a number of motors after short time intervals, has there been any analysis on their cycling patterns?

No analysis, just asked a few with multiple failures. So there is no real pattern.
- low mileage/year, medium assistance, medium hills
- high mileage/year, max assistance, no hills
- low mileage/year, low assistance, few hills during trips or on holiday
- high mileage/year, medium assistance, medium hills

These are just a few.

My conclusion is, the often you use high torques, the significant less is the possible mileage. My 5th motor was noisy from the 1st mile w/o seen any high torques. AND motors produced till mid of 2014 seem to be more reliable.

 

[Templogin]

Rightly or wrongly I'm picking up a Kalkhoff Compact tomorrow. That's got the impulse 2 motor. Its been imported by JE James Rotherham direct from the factory in Germany. Nothing to do with 50 cycles,
James cycles are busy making the whole top floor into a dedicated e bike room. I think my hips will click before the motor does ---- I hope

How is the new bike going vicwo?

 

[Will Tinker]

Personally, my pedalling was mostly done in gears 6-9 on my 9 speed. I didn't see a reason to use the other gears often, since I could get up any hills quite comfortably in 6-7.

Presumably this meant that I pedaled quite hard at times.

I don't know whether this had any effect or not, though.

 

[Templogin]

Welcome back Will

 

[Osho]

I dropped into the 50 Cycles store in Shoreham by Sea to ask the ever affable Charles Martin why my second chain should have stretched significantly after a couple of hundred miles. I mentioned that the first chain was replaced under guarantee at their Bristol branch after three hundred miles as it had worn to its limits. He suggested that I might have been over lubricating the chain as this could attract dust and grit which would account for excessive wear. I had a larger sprocket fitted from new, on his advice, to give me a slightly higher gearing and I am wondering if this could be cutting into the chain and causing the excessive wear. Please don't laugh, too much, at my ignorance but it does seem odd that two chains have 'malfunctioned'.
Any comments would be very welcome.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

All chains stretch significantly after a couple of hundred miles. it's nothing to worry about. Grit cannot get to anywhere where the chain wears, so it's not because you're over-lubricating it, neither is it anything to do with sprockets.

A new chain will appear to stretch significantly as the grease moves out of the rollers. After that, it starts to wear normally. Constant lubrication will slow it down a bit, but the lubrication won't stay between the rollers where the wear takes place. It'll keep the chain quiet and efficient, and it'll slow down the wear on your sprockets.

My advice: Forget about it. My chain (cheapest on Ebay) has done 4000 miles and is still going strong. I never checked it for wear.