Ping Batteries for Ezee, a Possible Alternative?

C

Cyclezee

Guest
I will require a replacement Ezee battery in the not too distant future and I am wondering if a Ping LiFEPO4 pack would be a viable alternative. Has anyone tried this and if so what are the pros and cons?

J:) hn
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,604
30,874
I've briefly toyed with the idea myself John, but the discharge rate of the nominally equal capacity Ping units is low for the Quando/Torq 1 motor. It would work ok but I'm concerned the stress on the cells would mean the actual capacity/range would be appreciably lower and the life could also suffer.

Having said that, the li-polymer battery that eZee now supply also barely copes and as A to B has shown, it's actual capacity when used to the full is as low as 7 Ah, not the nominal 10 Ah. It also spends most of it's life on battery meter amber when the throttle is fully opened, even when new, so the cells obviously struggling to maintain the voltage. Also they are sometimes barely reaching two years so the Ping will probably perform as well and last longer.

The Phylion made test Li-ion that I've been running for almost two years now was much better in both respects, difficult to get off battery meter green for the first 200 charges even on tough climbs, but eZee didn't adopt it due to continuing suspicion after the previous experience with Phylion. Looks like only a two year life though, since I got the first cut out on a long very stiff climb at 20 months. It instantly recovered to full power and completed the climb though, and hasn't cut out since, so it should reach January and two years. In a less hilly area and with less brutal treatment it would be much better of course.
.
 
Last edited:

themutiny

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2009
354
0
It wasn't so long ago that I was marvelling at the relative longevity of my Phylion. It seems a combination of the colder weather in the late evenings (which is the only chance I get to cycle) and sod's law has shown that it has suddenly shown it's age quite badly, particularly on steep climbs. It's still not bad, but I can see that it is in decline and will probably only last two years. the Li-polymer on the other hand has always been a cause for concern, residing on amber from the start for any serious use.

The big question for me is, are the 14ah ones any better, or are Ezee likely to revert to Phylion or change suppliers again? Should I eke these batteries out this winter, which could considerably shorten my range and therefore curtail my nocturnal excursions, or should I get one whilst I still can?

Answers on a postcard....
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,604
30,874
The Mutiny, NottyR6 is just buying two 14 Ah batteries and has said he'll feed back information. I've also asked him to keep me informed. Here's the link to our two posts elsewhere in the forum:

NottyR6 postings and responses
.
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
I'm wondering about 15amp Ping LiFEPO4 pack which would cost $470 including charger and delivery. Obviously, it would not be 'plug and play' as a suitable container would need to acquired for rear rack mounting and installation work carried out.

The current 10amp Ezee battery does not sound very promising and the 14amp version an unknown quantity as far as longevity is concerned.

My interest is promted buy the sale of my Torq along with an excellent 1 year old 2nd generation Phylion battery. This leaves me with one a rapidly dying battery to power my Forzas.

J:) hn
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,604
30,874
The 15 Ah would be a big heavy lump of course, but it should just about cope with the Forza motor demand on full throttle climbs. Whether it would last to the three year point with that motor's high demand is an unknown, Pings ratings being quite moderate for a three year life. In your MK area the hills are far from serious and protracted so it would probably last well so long as you didn't take it to the Peak District for lots of holidays!
.
 

Andy Grayland

Pedelecer
Apr 9, 2008
62
0
We have been trying the new 14 Ah batteries for a couple of months now. We are very pleased with their performance so far. The new 14Ah battery is in the same case as the existing battery. The 14Ah weighs 3.8Kg so is lighter than the older 10Ah version which was 4.7Kg. The latest 10Ah version weighs 3.1Kg for you interest. The new 14Ah battery is actually 2*7Ah in parallel in the same case.
We are getting about 1.5 times greater range than the old Phylion which makes some sense as the capacity to current ratio is better.
The new 14Ah still goes to amber on steep hills quicker than the old Phylion type as the voltage drops more with large current draw. However the voltage does hold up better than the new 10Ah version that has been discussed previously in the forum.
Obviously we do not yet know the life of these batteries as we have only had them a couple of months but we are very optimistic. The same manufacturer makes batteries for other E bikes that seem to have had good battery life, though you must take into account that the Ezee bikes are very powerful machines.
Next year we will be introducing a version of the Ezee bike with 2 batteries. One in the same place as the existing battery and a 10Ah mounted in the rack. These will be parallel wired so the current draw from each battery will be halved. This option gives up to 24Ah capacity for people who really do need a long range.
We also stock rack-mount battery bags for people who run 2 batteries in parallel at the moment.
Andy
OnBike
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Andy,

What is the length of warranty for the 14 Ah battery, do you hold them in stock and what colour is the case?
I assume they can be charged with the standard charger?
One more thing the, the price?

J:) hn
 

Andy Grayland

Pedelecer
Apr 9, 2008
62
0
The warranty is 1 year. We have run out of the first batch and are expecting the next batch in 12 weeks. They come in either sliver or black. They can be charged with the standard LiPoly charger. We also have 4Amp chargers now to allow for quicker charging.
They cost £525 which may change depending on exchange rate fluctuations and the Vat rate at the time.

Regards

Andy
 

themutiny

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2009
354
0
Hi Andy
I have wondered if I might eke out the battery life better if I ran them both in parallel, can you supply the necessary electrics as well as the bag?
Regards, Nick
 

Andy Grayland

Pedelecer
Apr 9, 2008
62
0
Hi Nick

Phil has been running two old batteries in parallel for some time and it seems to work well. He uses 2 schottky diodes to current balance the batteries and to stop one battery trying to charge the other. With the new batteries diodes are not needed as the BMS balances the batteries well. I am not sure if you need diodes on older batteries.
It is a bit fiddly fitting the diodes and doing the parallel wiring unless you are used to doing this kind of work.
I am hoping to do an application note about all this as soon as things “calm down” for the winter.
The expert on all this is Nick AKA Tiberius perhaps he can shed some light on this?
Are both of your batteries LiPoly? I know will not be able to combine a NiMh with a LiPoly without diodes.
Using two batteries will add to their life as only half (or some proportion) of the current will be drawn from each battery.

Andy
 

themutiny

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2009
354
0
THanks Andy, perhaps I should contact Nick as I have zero confidence in my ability to do this. One is a Phylion, the other a LiPoly

Regards

Nick
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
Hi Nick

Phil has been running two old batteries in parallel for some time and it seems to work well. He uses 2 schottky diodes to current balance the batteries and to stop one battery trying to charge the other. With the new batteries diodes are not needed as the BMS balances the batteries well. I am not sure if you need diodes on older batteries.
It is a bit fiddly fitting the diodes and doing the parallel wiring unless you are used to doing this kind of work.
I am hoping to do an application note about all this as soon as things “calm down” for the winter.
The expert on all this is Nick AKA Tiberius perhaps he can shed some light on this?
Are both of your batteries LiPoly? I know will not be able to combine a NiMh with a LiPoly without diodes.
Using two batteries will add to their life as only half (or some proportion) of the current will be drawn from each battery.

Andy
That's very kind of you, Andy.

The danger with putting battery packs in parallel is not so much with balancing the current draw between them or with balancing the cells inside each pack. Its what happens if the packs are slightly different voltages, which will occur if they are different chemistries or different states of charge.

In that case a cross current or balancing current will flow between them. The only resistance limiting it is the internal resistance of the packs, say 1/10 of an Ohm in each pack. So only a small voltage difference can lead to a high cross current. This will be forward current in one pack and reverse current in the other and could be large enough to do damage or blow a fuse. Even if it doesn't break something it will turn some of the battery energy into heat.

The solution is to fit a diode with each pack to prevent reverse currents.
A diode isn't needed if:

1) The packs are always the same voltage, which really means they are permanently assembled into a larger pack and always charged and discharged together.

2) The BMS prevents reverse current.

I've heard that some BMS will do this, but I can't confirm it. It seems unlikely, but I've heard it from good sources. What I'd really like to do is to see the circuit or to test one.

Using Schottky diodes is one way of combining battery packs, but they generate heat which has to be got rid of. Ideal Diodes are another way. The links below lead to further reading on the subject (and yes, I have to declare an interest):

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4140-ideal-diodes.html
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/classifieds/4531-ideal-diodes-battery-combining.html
Ideal Diodes

Nick
 
Last edited: