RANGE
- Thread starter braylew
- Start date
I have the bosch active motor & 400 battery in my cube.
My display shows a different range each time I fully charge the battery.
At first I thought I had a problem but it seams as though the bike guesstimates the range based on your most recent riding style and the terrain your on.
I've left home showing only 26miles (Eco) and ridden for 40, coming back home with 30miles remaining.
I then realised prior to charging I'd used full power up some steep hills.
No two people will have the same results
( I think )
My display shows a different range each time I fully charge the battery.
At first I thought I had a problem but it seams as though the bike guesstimates the range based on your most recent riding style and the terrain your on.
I've left home showing only 26miles (Eco) and ridden for 40, coming back home with 30miles remaining.
I then realised prior to charging I'd used full power up some steep hills.
No two people will have the same results
( I think )
thanks they do seem to be a bit all over best I can get on mine is 26 miles that's on eco and a little tour no way I could get 40 miles maybe something not quite right the range they advertise are very misleading I think
I've found that the my performance line motor is way down on mileage per charge than my old active line motor. But I guess that the extra 12Nm of torque offered by the performance line motor, is the cause of this. In truth, I can't say that I've ever noticed the difference in real term performance between the two, which kind of makes the active line the more desirable of the two.
It'll be interesting to see how things pan out when I get this organised. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/battery-bike-range-test.19808/
.
It'll be interesting to see how things pan out when I get this organised. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/battery-bike-range-test.19808/
.
I have Kalkhoff BS10 (I guess that's a Performance motor?) and a 400Wh battery. I can easily get around 45miles on combination of Tour/Sport (mostly Tour) and made my commute of 38 miles easily with 1 and sometimes 2 bars remaining. Of course I do peddle a lot as it is a Pedelecs only (no throttle). Your 26 miles seems quite low.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
That's interesting. I wondered about how accurate the energy consumption estimates from these softwares are. My Sports Tracker seems to substantially over-estimate. It reckons that I provode about three times as much as the motor, which I definitely don't. Yours shows about 200wh to complete that journey. Assuming that you provided a fairly low 100w (60wh), that only leaves 140wh for the motor, but it consumed nearly 400wh. That means either that it's very inefficient or their calculation is wrong, or both.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Your Panasonic is no better than the Bosch. The difference in range comes from, the type of terrain and how hard you pedal.
50 miles at 15mph on the flat with no wind takes about 800wh of energy. In the real world, you can expect somewhere between 50% and 100% more as an estimate. Let's leave that aside for the moment. That means for a range of 50 miles, you have to provide 400wh of energy along with the battery's 400wh, which is about 150w continuous. That's if your motor is 100% efficient, which it isn't. An optimistic guess at its efficiency would be 65%, so now the motor has only provided 260wh, which means you would provide 540wh or about 170w continuous. That's quite difficult. I suspect that your average spped over a range of 50 miles would actually be a lot less. I find that to average 15mph over any distance requires just over 20wh per mile over mixed terrain with a bit of wind, which would give a 400wh battery a range of 20 miles. I don't believe that the Panasonic motor is more than twice as efficient as mine.
When I average 12mph, the consumption goes down to about 10wh/mile with moderately hard pedalling, which would give your battery a range of 40 miles. Maybe the Panasonic system is more efficient than my Xiongda, so 50 miles might be achievable at that speed.
It's a shame more people don't post actual recorded data about speed, distance and consumption. For that, you need a wattmeter or you need to run the battery completely flat. Unfortunately, it's not easy to use a wattmeter with Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff and such systems to get true data, which is why we get so many myths and discrepencies.
It still comes back to the same thing though: Your battery helps you along. If it can take you a long way, it isn't helping you much, or to put it another way. If the same rider uses two different bikes and finds that he can go further on one than the other with the same battery, he will have more tired legs from the one that can take him further.
50 miles at 15mph on the flat with no wind takes about 800wh of energy. In the real world, you can expect somewhere between 50% and 100% more as an estimate. Let's leave that aside for the moment. That means for a range of 50 miles, you have to provide 400wh of energy along with the battery's 400wh, which is about 150w continuous. That's if your motor is 100% efficient, which it isn't. An optimistic guess at its efficiency would be 65%, so now the motor has only provided 260wh, which means you would provide 540wh or about 170w continuous. That's quite difficult. I suspect that your average spped over a range of 50 miles would actually be a lot less. I find that to average 15mph over any distance requires just over 20wh per mile over mixed terrain with a bit of wind, which would give a 400wh battery a range of 20 miles. I don't believe that the Panasonic motor is more than twice as efficient as mine.
When I average 12mph, the consumption goes down to about 10wh/mile with moderately hard pedalling, which would give your battery a range of 40 miles. Maybe the Panasonic system is more efficient than my Xiongda, so 50 miles might be achievable at that speed.
It's a shame more people don't post actual recorded data about speed, distance and consumption. For that, you need a wattmeter or you need to run the battery completely flat. Unfortunately, it's not easy to use a wattmeter with Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff and such systems to get true data, which is why we get so many myths and discrepencies.
It still comes back to the same thing though: Your battery helps you along. If it can take you a long way, it isn't helping you much, or to put it another way. If the same rider uses two different bikes and finds that he can go further on one than the other with the same battery, he will have more tired legs from the one that can take him further.
I think I will just consider myself as a athlete then.
I have recorded my runs on strava and my best one day on an unassisted bike was over 110 miles at over 14mph average. (age over 50 weight circa 100kg.)
If I had a boost for uphill with electric assist then my ave would be even higher.
But yes I get good range out of my electric bike with sweat assist.
I have recorded my runs on strava and my best one day on an unassisted bike was over 110 miles at over 14mph average. (age over 50 weight circa 100kg.)
If I had a boost for uphill with electric assist then my ave would be even higher.
But yes I get good range out of my electric bike with sweat assist.
Last edited:
John try this calculator for the speed changes
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/kreuzotter/espeed.htm
With different bike and power.
Mine is short wheel base with touring tires and above seat steering.
While the second part of this is largely true and was certainly true of the old early unit, the Panasonic second series units are more efficient than the Bosch, something Panasonic are proud of. The reason is that it uses a single stage internal gear reduction driving the chain via a small drive sprocket.
This does give them a potential range advantage over the multi-stage reduction units from Bosch, Kalkhoff et al which drive the chainwheel.
.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
It might make 1% difference. That won't give you 50 miles at 25km/h from any 400wh battery on a Kalkhoff. I just came back from a 23 mile ride on level one, which is 70w. I averaged about 12 mph and my legs were a bit tired when I got back. I used about 10wh/mile.
e-cycling normally continuously using Normal power mode with occasional High power mode I more than once returned 35 miles on a Kalkhoff Agattu Panasonic with it's 10 Ah battery, so about the same 10wh/mile. I was lighter than you but was also over 71 years old.
I also demonstrated that I could get 55 miles from that same 360wh battery, but that was of course using my power only on the easiest bits. Similarly on that same Kalkhoff David Henshaw of A to B Magazine returned 46 miles by using Eco power mode only all the time, so 7.8wh/mile.
I agree that today's Kalkhoff with its Impulse unit and 400wh battery probably wouldnt do as well for either of us, but that's what I mean about the Panasonic's greater efficiency. I'd guess it's rather more than a 1% gain.
.
As folks have already stated there's to many variations to have any reliable table for battery range.
I have arthritis in both knees & can't stand to peddle but I can keep going at 60-70 cadence for hours !
If I'm setting out for a days riding, I adjust my riding to suit. Most of my riding will be unpowered and I'd sooner change down a gear rather than turning on the power, by the time I'm down to 1st or 2nd gear I'll add Eco mode and if nessary up the power from there.
Last year my longest single ride was 70miles.
If I'm only on a short ride, 20 odd miles or taking some off road trails, the power will be on most of the time.
OK so I'm not like most pedelecers, I don't commute or use my bike for transport.
I ride just for the fun of it (and to keep as active as I can dispite my arthritis)
I expect to come home all sweaty with tired legs
I have arthritis in both knees & can't stand to peddle but I can keep going at 60-70 cadence for hours !
If I'm setting out for a days riding, I adjust my riding to suit. Most of my riding will be unpowered and I'd sooner change down a gear rather than turning on the power, by the time I'm down to 1st or 2nd gear I'll add Eco mode and if nessary up the power from there.
Last year my longest single ride was 70miles.
If I'm only on a short ride, 20 odd miles or taking some off road trails, the power will be on most of the time.
OK so I'm not like most pedelecers, I don't commute or use my bike for transport.
I ride just for the fun of it (and to keep as active as I can dispite my arthritis)
I expect to come home all sweaty with tired legs
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
d8veh
Using the calculator I posted above.
A MTB with fat tyres uses 150 watts to get around 25kph.
Where a racer with drops and high pressure tyres 100 watts gives you 25 kph.
Assuming a 300wh battery.
Well if I'm putting in 70 watts on my BH race and 30 watts from the battery, allowing for 50% efficiency it's 60 watts per hour. Making 25 kph for over 5 hours? That is Close to 75 miles range.
With a MTB and the same 70 watts from me the battery needs to put in 80 watts, 50% efficient so 160 watts. And sub 2 hour assistance and a range of under 30 miles.
Therefore by putting the Panasonic in a racer with drops and HP tyres you can get double the range of a MTB with fat tyres.
Of course there are other factors as well but my over 50 miles on a battery at an average of 25kph is easy.
And if I go to a recumbent low racer and 100 watts I get 30kph!
For an easy quick 100 mile range
Using the calculator I posted above.
A MTB with fat tyres uses 150 watts to get around 25kph.
Where a racer with drops and high pressure tyres 100 watts gives you 25 kph.
Assuming a 300wh battery.
Well if I'm putting in 70 watts on my BH race and 30 watts from the battery, allowing for 50% efficiency it's 60 watts per hour. Making 25 kph for over 5 hours? That is Close to 75 miles range.
With a MTB and the same 70 watts from me the battery needs to put in 80 watts, 50% efficient so 160 watts. And sub 2 hour assistance and a range of under 30 miles.
Therefore by putting the Panasonic in a racer with drops and HP tyres you can get double the range of a MTB with fat tyres.
Of course there are other factors as well but my over 50 miles on a battery at an average of 25kph is easy.
And if I go to a recumbent low racer and 100 watts I get 30kph!
For an easy quick 100 mile range
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
I think that there's a mistake in your calculation. 30w from the battery at 50% efficiency = 15w helping power, so you'd only have 85w total motive power, which is enough to do 17.6 kph. Bring in a 2% hill and 7 mph wind and the speed drops to 7.2 kph, or to do 25 kph, you need 460w total. That's what makes it impossible. The previous calculations are for riding in a velodrome.
No I assumed 30 drive required 60 watts from the battery.
Yes the calculations are flat road. So no hill up or down.
In the real world I did do 110 miles in 8 hours with no assist and 50 miles on a BH race with the 26volt battery and circa 8 amps or around 4 watts per mile?
It is possible to hyper mile, the Panasonic system can help, so can a good hub drive.
The factors that help me are . Personal effort. An efficient cycle design. Good tyres, pacing myself and planning suitable routes.
Yes the calculations are flat road. So no hill up or down.
In the real world I did do 110 miles in 8 hours with no assist and 50 miles on a BH race with the 26volt battery and circa 8 amps or around 4 watts per mile?
It is possible to hyper mile, the Panasonic system can help, so can a good hub drive.
The factors that help me are . Personal effort. An efficient cycle design. Good tyres, pacing myself and planning suitable routes.