Replacing / recelling battery for Giant Lafree Twist

[Joeboy]

Hi there.

There seem to be lots of old posts about Lafree batteries, but nothing recent and definitive so I wanted to ask for the latest advice.

I've been charged with doing something about my mum's Lafree Twist, which apparently has a failing battery. Ideally I would like to just buy a replacement at a reasonable price from somebody reputable, but it seems like that's probably not going to be an option in 2014. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that!

Next best option would be to pay a competent person to recell the battery. Can anybody suggest anybody that might be willing and able to do that, for a reasonable price?

The option I am thinking is most likely is recelling it myself. I found flecc's instructions at http://www.flecc.co.uk/p/recelling.html. I'm a bit scared of screwing it up, but it doesn't look too bad. I can solder and have done some basic electronics before. If I do go down this route, can somebody recommend some suitable cells? Will it be OK to use any NiMh cells with 300+MAh capacity each (ie. 6000+MAh for 20 of them)? Do I need to get a pack in a suitable configuration to fit the battery housing, or can I make this up myself? Is there any readily available battery I could cannibalize?

Grateful for any answers, or general advice / suggestions. In fact I'm already grateful for the answers I've found so far, especially flecc's stuff.

Cheers.

 

[flecc]

I believe a Giant dealer can still order a new battery for you, they had a new supplier making them with an improved meter circuit quite recently. It would probably cost around £250 to £300.

The problem with NiMh now is the lack of good high discharge cells. There are plenty of D cells advertised at up to 11 Ah capacity, but most have poor characteristics. For example, the most commonly available 9Ah ones have only a 5 amp maximum discharge rating, the Lafree needs nearly three times that.

So there is a real risk in buying NiMh cells now, I know a number of those trying have had poor results or very short battery life after recelling. That's why I've been unable to make up to date recommendations on my site.

Batteryspace in the USA make some good 10Ah packs that fit straight into the case once some of the pack wrapping is removed. But they do work out expensive, especially if caught by VAT and handling charges which usually happens. Here's the link to a suitable one. However, by the time an unfavourable exchange rate is applied, plus carriage, plus VAT and VAT collection charges by the courier, it could cost as much as a new genuine battery, or even more.

The other alternative is to use a modern 26 volt lithium battery and charger, mounting it on the carrier and providing connecting wires and connectors. You could probably get a suitable battery from a Chinese supplier for less than £200.

Here's an example with charger, the right discharge rate and much greater capacity on this link. Add carriage, import duty and VAT if caught for that and it still wouldn't be expensive. Make sure to choose the right mains voltage if buying.

 

[Joeboy]

Thanks for this. I got in touch with a Giant dealer, and they say the person they need to ask about it is on holiday but I should find out authoritatively if there's an official replacement battery available in a few days. If not (or if it's crazy expensive) I'll move onto the other options.

 

[flecc]

The spares stock is held at Giant's Netherlands centre normally, but they deliver to the UK quickly.

I'll be very surprised if they don't still have them, since a high proportion of the 20,000 Lafrees sold are still working and there are also many BikeTec Flyers with the same unit.

 

[Joeboy]

Hi. Giant's St Pauls store says replacements aren't available. So the next option is looking for somebody competent to do the recelling. Any recommendations, or does anybody here want to quote for this? Ta.

 

[tillson]

I would have thought that your best option would be to go down the Lithium battery route, given that suitable NiMh cells are so difficult to obtain.

I try to read the responses to anything that is related to Panasonic motors, and the NiMh cell situation seems to have existed for some time now. I would think that the long term outlook will be an even shorter supply of suitable cells.

 

[flecc]

That's bad news. For the reasons I gave previously I don't know anyone who I can recommend for this NiMh recelling service. Even the specialist recellyourbattery.com company rule out doing it for e-bike batteries.

You can get a new battery through German ebay on this link, and they are the later larger 9.5 Ah ones.

Or cellpacks to insert yourself, a number of them on this link

These German suppliers can usually communicate in English.

 

[jateureka2]

I am in a similar situation with a dying Aprilia Enjoy Racing NiMh battery pack. I was looking at fitting 2 x lithium motorcycle starter batteries that can be charged using a standard car battery charger. The batteries are SSB PowerSport Litium and use prismatic cells and range from $85 to $150 AUD each but I am not sure of the Ah rating as they only quote CCA for starting.
Here is one link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131004456791?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Anybody had any experience with this type of battery?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There's loads on Endless-Sphere about batteries for the Aprillia Enjoy. There's a long thread on hot-rodding them.Those motorcycle batteries are very expensive for what you get. A normal lithium battery should fit straight in, and it'll be lighter, cheaper and more capacity.

 

[SamMurdock]

Hi I am looking at replacing the D cells in my LaFree battery pack with 20 Annsmann D8500 or D10000 NiMH batteries. I read elsewhere that Flecc advised that repacement cells for the Lafree pack would need a max discharge rate (current drain?) of at least 14-15 Amps and I raised this query with Battery Station

The very prompt reply from them was:
Neither of these batteries will give you 15A drain on it's own. The 8500mAH maximum current drain is 8.5A and the 10,000mAH is 10A.
I am no expert on batteries. Does this mean these Annsmanns are unsuitable and if so can anyone advise on another make that might have a sufficiently high rating?
thanks

 

[flecc]

Hi I am looking at replacing the D cells in my LaFree battery pack with 20 Annsmann D8500 or D10000 NiMH batteries. I read elsewhere that Flecc advised that repacement cells for the Lafree pack would need a max discharge rate (current drain?) of at least 14-15 Amps and I raised this query with Battery Station

The very prompt reply from them was:
Neither of these batteries will give you 15A drain on it's own. The 8500mAH maximum current drain is 8.5A and the 10,000mAH is 10A.
I am no expert on batteries. Does this mean these Annsmanns are unsuitable and if so can anyone advise on another make that might have a sufficiently high rating?
thanks

Since the switch to lithium batteries the supply of high discharge capability NiMh D cells has dwindled due to lack of any demand so I can't verify the Annsmann capabilities. I've seen disappointment expressed in them very long ago but that won't necessarily hold true now of course.

Batteryspace in the USA have always supplied a cell array that suited the Lafree and still appear to do so. I don't know what cells they use but they say the discharge rate is 10A standard and 30A maximum. These worked fine in Lafrees a decade ago, but whether that's still true now I wouldn't know. Here's the link, but they are an expensive option once import duty, VAT etc are factored in. There are some things you'll need to know about these packs so let me know if you are considering one:

NiMH Rechargeable Battery: 24V 10Ah (240Wh, 30A rate, 7+6+7, MH-D50)

6181

www.batteryspace.com

If today's 10A discharge Annsmanns perform the same way, they will be sufficient for the Lafree since only the maximum demand needs 14/15 amps and the power phase down built in at over 10 mph in top gear means most riding consumption is well below that.
.

 

[SamMurdock]

Since the switch to lithium batteries the supply of high discharge capability NiMh D cells has dwindled due to lack of any demand so I can't verify the Annsmann capabilities. I've seen disappointment expressed in them very long ago but that won't necessarily hold true now of course.

Batteryspace in the USA have always supplied a cell array that suited the Lafree and still appear to do so. I don't know what cells they use but they say the discharge rate is 10A standard and 30A maximum. These worked fine in Lafrees a decade ago, but whether that's still true now I wouldn't know. Here's the link, but they are an expensive option once import duty, VAT etc are factored in. There are some things you'll need to know about these packs so let me know if you are considering one:

NiMH Rechargeable Battery: 24V 10Ah (240Wh, 30A rate, 7+6+7, MH-D50)

6181

www.batteryspace.com

If today's 10A discharge Annsmanns perform the same way, they will be sufficient for the Lafree since only the maximum demand needs 14/15 amps and the power phase down built in at over 10 mph in top gear means most riding consumption is well below that.
.

Many thanks for your reply Flecc. (I've read your informative posts for over 10 years now and bought several Lafrees based on your views on them. They were certainly made with high quality materials and are in remarkable condition considering they are about 15 years old. I live in a very hilly area so keen that I can retain as much assistance for the up-hill challenges as possible. As the Annsmann's max discharge rate is stated as 10mA, would that reduce the assistance available on the steep hills?

Regarding batteryspace link - they require me to select from 3 options - J489-V1 (no thermostat) or J489 Separate terminals or J323 combined terminals. Which should I select?

I also spent more time than I intended looking for UK available batteries specifying a high max discharge rate and eventually found these from Allbatteries with max continuous discharge current 24A:
NX Ready D size Rechargeable Batteries min capacity 8000mA
https://www.allbatteries.co.uk/nimh-battery-blister-x2-d-nx-ready-1-2v-8000mah-ach9027.html
Max continuous discharge current 24A (3C)
https://www.allbatteries.co.uk/media/pdf/ACH9027_UK.pdf

Would greatly appreciate your advice
thanks, Sam

 

[flecc]

Many thanks for your reply Flecc. (I've read your informative posts for over 10 years now and bought several Lafrees based on your views on them. They were certainly made with high quality materials and are in remarkable condition considering they are about 15 years old. I live in a very hilly area so keen that I can retain as much assistance for the up-hill challenges as possible. As the Annsmann's max discharge rate is stated as 10mA, would that reduce the assistance available on the steep hills?

Regarding batteryspace link - they require me to select from 3 options - J489-V1 (no thermostat) or J489 Separate terminals or J323 combined terminals. Which should I select?

I also spent more time than I intended looking for UK available batteries specifying a high max discharge rate and eventually found these from Allbatteries with max continuous discharge current 24A:
NX Ready D size Rechargeable Batteries min capacity 8000mA
https://www.allbatteries.co.uk/nimh-battery-blister-x2-d-nx-ready-1-2v-8000mah-ach9027.html
Max continuous discharge current 24A (3C)
https://www.allbatteries.co.uk/media/pdf/ACH9027_UK.pdf

Would greatly appreciate your advice
thanks, Sam

If buying one I'd choose the thermostat pack from Batteryspace and just swap the thermostat for an existing correct value one from your own packs Sam. That means breaking into the pack wrapping, but that doesn't matter since it's such a tight fit into the Lafree case some of the plastic wrapping has to be removed anyway.

I don't know anything about the Allbatteries cells of course but their rating claims are below the Annsmann ones, so it come down to how true either's are.

Having a lower continuous rating than 14 Amps won't affect the hill climbing since the maximum rating is well in excess, a lower rating just affects life to some degree since it indicates slightly higher cells stress when under full load.

I don't know how you were proposing to connect if you bought separate cells, but soldering isn't really good enough since it's extremely difficult to get adequate joins without excess heat into the cells. Wire connections aren't suitable, you need suitable flat metal strip and a very high heat iron to minimise the contact time. The only satisfactory way is to spot weld the right metal strip.

I think you have two best options, one being a Batteryspace pack. The other is to approach Jimmy at his excellent recelling company below to see what he could offer. He normally recells with lithium cells but that is probably not possible within the Lafree case with sufficient capacity using the usual 18650 cells and I doubt any suitable BMS (management system) could be found that would fit in. You could check that with him though. A change to lithium would mean no thermostat necessary but he'd need to provide you with a different charger as well. Lithium if possible gives 26 volts from 7s which works ok on the Lafree since some use other e-bike lithium batteries mounted elsewhere such as on the Lafree carrier.

What I'm thinking though is that he might be prepared to assemble a new spot welded pack for you, using NiMh cells from Annsmann and an existing thermostat from your pack, following the Lafree layout. It's a long shot for NiMh though since it's not something he normally does and probably as dear as a Batteryspace pack:

eBike Batteries

ebikebatteries.co.uk

1A Gateway Mews, Ringway, London N11 2UT

Tel: +44 (0)208 361 1790
.

 

[SamMurdock]

If buying one I'd choose the thermostat pack from Batteryspace and just swap the thermostat for an existing correct value one from your own packs Sam. That means breaking into the pack wrapping, but that doesn't matter since it's such a tight fit into the Lafree case some of the plastic wrapping has to be removed anyway.

I don't know anything about the Allbatteries cells of course but their rating claims are below the Annsmann ones, so it come down to how true either's are.

Having a lower continuous rating than 14 Amps won't affect the hill climbing since the maximum rating is well in excess, a lower rating just affects life to some degree since it indicates slightly higher cells stress when under full load.

I don't know how you were proposing to connect if you bought separate cells, but soldering isn't really good enough since it's extremely difficult to get adequate joins without excess heat into the cells. Wire connections aren't suitable, you need suitable flat metal strip and a very high heat iron to minimise the contact time. The only satisfactory way is to spot weld the right metal strip.

I think you have two best options, one being a Batteryspace pack. The other is to approach Jimmy at his excellent recelling company below to see what he could offer. He normally recells with lithium cells but that is probably not possible within the Lafree case with sufficient capacity using the usual 18650 cells and I doubt any suitable BMS (management system) could be found that would fit in. You could check that with him though. A change to lithium would mean no thermostat necessary but he'd need to provide you with a new charger as well.

What I'm thinking though is that he might be prepared to assemble a new spot welded pack for you, using NiMh cells from Annsmann and an existing thermostat from your pack, following the Lafree layout:

eBike Batteries

ebikebatteries.co.uk

1A Gateway Mews, Ringway, London N11 2UT

Tel: +44 (0)208 361 1790
.

 

[flecc]

as above.

Sam, I edited my last post with an addition which you missed:

"Lithium if possible gives 26 volts from 7s which works ok on the Lafree since some use other e-bike lithium batteries mounted elsewhere such as on the Lafree carrier."

So another option for you is to swap to a lithium battery mounted elsewhere as others have done.
.

 

[SamMurdock]

Many thanks Flecc
I will follow both your suggestions up and get prices.
re Batteryspace order page, I assume I ingore the "no thermostat" option and select either "J489 Separate terminals" or "J323 combined terminals". Which should I select?

Thanks for link to ebike batteries. Will see what they suggest re Lithium vs NiMH options
Just for clarity on the NiMH batteries above, if I have read the specs correctly:
Annsmann nominal capacity 10Ah (Max discharge rate also 10A)
NX Ready (from Allbatteries) nominal capacity 8Ah (Max discharge rate 24A)
If that's correct, would the Annsmanns be more likely to struggle on steep hills?
Sam

 

[flecc]

Many thanks Flecc
I will follow both your suggestions up and get prices.
re Batteryspace order page, I assume I ingore the "no thermostat" option and select either "J489 Separate terminals" or "J323 combined terminals". Which should I select?

J489, separate terminals. The two discharge terminals with square connectors you cut off to wire to the two metal contact pads that connect to the bike, getting the polarity right of course.

The two charge terminal wires to the 7 pin charge connector.

You remove their NTC thermostat from within the cell pack and use your old one in the original position within the cell pack. It's two wires go one to the old thermostat position in the seven pin connector, the other to the black charge connector wire in the seven pin charge connector. Either way round, NTC thermistors are bidirectional.

The diagram below of the rear view inside your seven pin charge connector may help, but the colours are the old ones of course. You'll see how the Blue (now to be black) thermostat ground wire can be solder bridged to the adjacent pin which goes to one thermostat connection in charger. The yellow green wire is the other thermostat wire, Brown the red charge wire:

Thanks for link to ebike batteries. Will see what they suggest re Lithium vs NiMH options
Just for clarity on the NiMH batteries above, if I have read the specs correctly:
Annsmann nominal capacity 10Ah (Max discharge rate also 10A)
NX Ready (from Allbatteries) nominal capacity 8Ah (Max discharge rate 24A)
If that's correct, would the Annsmanns be more likely to struggle on steep hills?
Sam

Yes, if the numbers are correct the Annsmann isn't as good.
.

 

[SamMurdock]

Thanks again flecc. Will let you know how I get on

 

[CharlieVI]

Thanks..Based on explanation on the diagram..We have the 2 wires from thermostat welded to green & blue..2 wires must be connected for power..one to brown (hot one).. leaving the other one (+) to be placed ..where?? I imagine by the same thermostat ground connection..Am I right? Or where ? Housing ..maybe..Thanks again..By the way..anybody selling a copy of service manual for this bike ? How to wire an external Lithium package to the controller..Any special connector..relay..fuse..resistor in between..? Any video of the procedure explained here ??