Strong LED tail lghts

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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these lights are from the back of Cadillacs, Lumiled pirahna, a less diffuse source than a match and so goes a lot further, seems to be at least three times brighter than ordinary tail lights. even much brighter than a 3w light bulb tail light.


it's running on a 36 V battery through a voltage 5v converter in series at 2.5v, 70ma, 5Lm lumen each, 30lm total @ .07x2.5x6= 1 Watts!!! should I try and stick an oscillator on it? :D

I have some spare lumileds automotive 5lm lights and 36/48v to 5/10 v converters by the way and I am skint!
 

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Tiberius

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Nov 9, 2007
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I plan to do something similar. I have already brought out the 36V connection as part of the last mods.

It is not difficult to take the insides of a bike rear light and run it off a supply instead of batteries,if you want a quick way to get flashing LEDs. Another way is to use LEDs with inbuilt flashers.

Nick
 

Ian

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Apr 1, 2007
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Leicester LE4, UK.
My approach on rearlights is to use a flashing LED fed from a 7805 5V regulator with 12 more LEDs in series fed from the nominal 36V supply. Ive found by using LEDs from this supplier the result is far more effective than any commercial product I've seen. I have tried other LEDs with similar quoted specifications but they have been dissapointing by comparison.
 

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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Led ratings in MCD are very misleading because a 10° beam that has the same light output as a 30° beam will have a MCD rating about 15 times higher because the light is 15 times more focused. Lumileds luxeon seoul have some of the best reputations, but no flashlight makers use 3 5 or 10 mm leds! only for taillights!

that's why manufacturers and sellers really love MCD rating, Lumen takes account of the total light output and is more intelligible.

I'm currently trying to figure out the most powerful efficient option for the front light- I think it makes sense to use 20W of LED and flash it a hundred times a second with led driver, I would want to use Luxeon stars or something equivalent to at least 50 ordinary leds.

apparently luxeon star and the best torch lights can outperform £150 HID solutions although more diffusely...:)
 

Nick

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Nov 4, 2006
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I have a Dinotte li-ion tail light - I think it's rated at 120 lumens but, whatever it is, it's way brighter than any other tail-light I've seen, probably on a par with car fog-lights, with a good spread of light.
 

keithhazel

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Oct 1, 2007
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i have a Quando that has a rear light but want 2 more to fasten to the panniers, i want very very good ones, i have no idea about tapping into the power supply so dont want to go that route so even if power source is on the inside of panniers thats great...answers on a postcard...lol...here will do though...:)
 

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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I am just trying to figure all of this out myself, what I can tell you is that all strong red LEDs require between 2.4 and 2.6 V, which is perfect for batteries because two aa batteries varies in between 2.4 and 2.6, although batteries vary a lot which is bad! depending on the colour of the light, the different chemistry requires a certain voltage to produce light for example 2.5/3.5.

the voltage converter I am using weighs 50 g, you can plug it into the recharge plug of the battery if you have a spare connector of the same type, and I have just tested it- when I am taking 600 W out of the motor through the 36 V battery, the 5v current from the adapter varies in between 5.05 and 5.04 volts according to the multimeter-I am chuffed! also when the the current is at idle it varies between 5.05 and 5.04. they cost 2.50!

I have also measured the converter on a 24 V battery and the current was 5.03, so I am pretty sure I won't need to put any resistors on the voltage source because it's a perfect voltage source with no fluctuations, leds dislike small fluctuations...I'm trying to read to understand everything.

that means that the voltage converter would be safer than the batteries and also a lot faster and more straightforward to wire up.

I am looking at powerful leds so you so you only have two wire up a couple of them them in and it takes up less space, I'm pretty sure it would be safe to put any of these on my bike, for example six of these 30lumen would be equivalent to the fog light of that Nick mentions...
red led lumen, Industrial Electrical Test, Business Industrial items on eBay.com

I'm trying to figure out about current regulation as well as voltage regulation with these stars but because they are made by lumileds they should be some of the best available...
only that you have to put them on an aluminium slug to take the heat from them, but each one is equivalent to 15 5mm leds... (1x 5mm led = 20a, these are 350a!)
 
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Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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Don't worry too much about the voltage, as long as it's greater than the LED forward voltage drop and enough to allow some form of current source to work you will be OK. You certainly don't normally need a voltage regulator.

You can run a series chain of LEDs from a high voltage source, like an ebike battery pack, fairly easily. A 24V pack will run a chain of about 8 red LEDs in series and still leave enough headroom for a current limiting circuit.

You can get away with just a simple resistor to limit the current, or, if you prefer, you can use a constant current regulator to give slightly better current control. Either will work OK, but the simple resistor might give some slight variation in brightness with battery voltage.

The advantage of a series string of LEDs is that the wasted power is kept to a low value. If you drop the voltage from the battery pack to a lower voltage, and then run several LEDs in parallel, the total current draw from the battery will be much higher.

If you post the voltage of your battery pack I (or one of the other here that have done something like this) will be able to let you know how many LEDs you can connect in each series string and also the value of the resistor you'd need to limit the current.

Hope this helps,

Jeremy
 

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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I considered doing that but the voltage fluctuations of 7-8V means that the whole thing would be a bit rickety, and I rather use a small number of very powerful lights on a stable voltage than a large number of less powerful ones...I like to have something as strong as a cateye that fits in a matchbox, that stays a constant brightness on an isolated rail!
it's perfectly feasible and practical for some light to wire straight into the battery but definitely not what I would prefer, the lights would vary by more than 50% according to the voltage...in all a converter only wastes about 2 W for for every 10 used as light...
 

Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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Trust me, regulating the voltage gains you nothing at all. If you want to ensure that the brightness stays absolutely constant with changes in battery pack voltage, then build a simple constant current regulator.

LED's are current driven devices. Their forward voltage drop varies a bit with temperature, so they cannot reliably be driven from a voltage regulated supply. Any attempt to do so will result in the problems that Haku had in the other thread, one or more blown LEDs in short order due to unequal current sharing.

For most practical purposes a simple current limiting resistor will give good results. Here's a worked example to give an idea of how this system works.

8 red LEDs connected in series will have a combined forward voltage drop of around 18 to 20V, depending on temperature and their exact spec.

They will probably need a forward current of at least 20mA to give maximum brightness, maybe a fair bit more if they are of the "Lumiled" type.

If run from a 24V battery pack, then between 4 and 6 volts needs to be dropped across the ballast resistor. Assuming that the current is 20mA and the voltage drop is 6 volts, then the resistor needs to have a value of 300 ohms. It's OK to run the LEDs at a slightly higher current, so as the nearest common resistor value is 270 ohms that would do fine (it will mean a LED current of 22mA at 6V, well within any normal LED spec).

The resistor will absorb, and so need to dissipate, some power, which you need to know in order to fit the right power rating part. 6 volts at 22mA is only 0.133 watts, so a 1/4 watt resistor would be fine.

Such a system will happily run from about 22 volts (where the LED current would be about 15mA, still OK) to about 26 volts (where the LED current would rise to 30mA, still OK).

For use on a higher voltage battery pack, for efficiency it would be best to look at adding more LEDs, as the current requirement would stay the same. You'd get more light output for little penalty in terms of power consumed.

Hope this helps,

Jeremy
 

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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I read that the thing about current regulation is that voltage variations across the diodes produce an exponential variation in current, and voltage variations going through a resistor produce linear variations in current.

I was thinking of this kind of scenario with my bike with 36 V with the current fluctuation that goes from almost 40 to 31 on load when they are flat would make the lights wobble on and off when I'm climbing a hill.-because every battery has different voltage it's nice to plug something onto any battery and it still runs because I'm upgrading to 48-and I am planning on doing headlights

24 is a lot easier to wire onto, but a 25% variation in voltage even with a resistor is what made me buy a current converter

as long as the leds are at a safe stable voltage and cooled properly, they should be okay, but I don't really believe in bullet leds unless you can find some from a very sure source, everyone seems to be buying really old ones from eBay from like 2000, I just put six strong ones and they are as strong as the headlamp for only 1w... I have only had to solder 4 wires together and the thing is really compact as well.

what arrangement would you do to run some really strong lights from the front?
 
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Ian

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Apr 1, 2007
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LEDs, should always be used be used with a current limiting device such as a resistor even when connected to a stable constant voltage, one reason being that the forward voltage of an LED is inversely proportional to temperature meaning that as the LED warms up its Vf will decrease meaning more current, more heat and thermal runaway. If the headroom is large enough a resistor is a perfectly adequate current regulator. Red ultrabright LEDs usually have a Vf of 1.9-2.0V therefore 10 LEDs will have a total Vf of 20V leaving 11V headroom at max load. A 680 ohm resistor will give a current variation from about 17 to 29 mA over the full voltage range which may sound a lot but due to the very non linear characteristics of the eye is surprisingly un-noticable.
As Jeremy has said a current regulator can be used instead of a resistor which will eliminate all variation, in its simplest form this consists of just two tiny components.
 

Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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Giguana,

It really is very simple to run LEDs safely and reliably. You don't need to worry at all about regulating any voltages, or even bother about what the LED forward voltage variation with temperature etc is, as long as you can keep the LED forward current within limits.

I'm running an array of high brightness white LEDs as a front light. They are OK, but not as focussed as the Lumiled high current type. I have 9 white LEDs connected in series and running at about 20mA. I have used a simple constant current circuit (two really cheap components) to keep the current at this level for any voltage between 34 volts and 55 volts.

The cost of the very simple constant current circuit I used was about 55 pence. One capable of running at a higher current, using the bigger version of the same regulator, would cost around 75 pence.

Using your example of a 36V supply, that varies between 31 volts and 40 volts, then here are some options using 5mm high brightness white LEDs:

You could use 7 white LEDs in series, with just a simple current limit resistor (no regulator of any sort), as a "lighting module". Several of these modules could be safely connected in parallel to get increased light output. Using a series resistor of 510 ohms for each module, the current variation with voltage would be from about 12mA at 31V to just under 30mA at 40V. This is within the specs for most common 5mm high brightness LEDs. The light output variation across this current range would be about 50%. Using a simple constant current circuit, as I've done, allows a the use of 8 LEDs per string and would give a constant light output over your change in supply voltage.

Now, if you wanted to run some really powerful LEDs, of the Luxeon/Lumiled type, then you just need to allow for a much greater forward current and the much greater variation in forward voltage. These high power LEDs typically run at around 0.7 to 1 amp and have a forward voltage variation of around 3 volts to about 4.5 volts. This makes it more difficult to run them from a resistor current limiter, so a constant current source is the best way to go. The principle would be just as described above, although the higher forward voltage range would limit you to a series string of 5 LEDs and the LEDs and the constant current source would need heatsinks, as there is a fair bit of power that needs to be dissipated as heat.

Jeremy
 

giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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Okay, I have found some cheap 1w leds already soldered to aluminium in 6x 1w 12v arrays for a fiver. Jeremy, your lighting system is only 0.5w! what I have found is about 6w!

I think thermal runaway is very important beyond 70A leds, it's very hard to kill bullet ones at 20a, I was thinking of using 3x 113 lumens @ 1000a each! for 3.3W each.(I thought why it was around 100lm per W for that price?) there are lots of different types of them obviously, in my experience is best to look for surplus from car factories and garages, where they have lots of custom made parts already with heat sinks going fairly cheap, that's why I have bought the 6x 1w block..

if I buy 3 of the best star leds I can get, which are rated at 1500A max(i.e 20A x 70 ;)and put them on a 4A 10V line they should be okay, although I will of course get hold of a big chunky resistor to symbolically place on the end, but I don't know how it is possible to regulate the voltage at 3000 10v on a 10V line...
 
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Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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The wattage with LEDs isn't as important as the light output. LEDs don't behave like light bulbs, where the increase in power is directly related to the increase in light output, particularly when it comes to very high current LEDs, where appreciable power can be lost in the current limiting circuit. My array of 9 white LEDs actually consumes about 0.72 watts on a 36 volt supply, so isn't that far off the power you quoted. The LEDs themselves consume about 0.576 watts, with the difference being dissipated by the constant current regulator.

I think that you may have some of the units a bit mixed up in your examples, as 1500 amps is an exceedingly high current. My guess is that you mean 1500mA? This is over the absolute maximum rating for the standard Luxeon white LEDs, according to the spec sheet. They seem to be rated at 1000mA, where they give around 80 lumens. Are the ones you're referring to the higher rated 5027 K2 Star ones?

These are rated at about 1500mA nominal forward current, with a forward voltage drop of between 3 volts and 4.5 volts. and a light output of 130 lumens. This shows quite why the power rating isn't too good a measure for LEDs, as the variation in forward voltage gives a power variation at a constant 1500mA of from 4.5 watts to 6.75 watts,yet the light output will remain at around 130 lumens across that range, as it's dependent mainly on forward current.

Assuming that you want to use 3 series connected Luxeon K2 Star LEDs, which is a good choice for lots of light, then if you connect them in series you will need a constant current source that can deliver 1500mA, which is easy enough to build using an adjustable regulator chip and a single 1.2 ohm resistor. This will soak up a lot of power though and will need a heat sink. Assuming that your battery nominal voltage is 36 volts, then the complete array of three Luxeon K2 Star LEDs plus current source will consume 54 watts. Most of this will be in the constant current source, as it will be dissipating over 37 watts on it's own.

Comparing the light output efficiency of a such a Luxeon array to my array of nine 5mm white LEDs is interesting. Each of my LEDs gives about 2.5 lumens, so my whole array gives only 22.5 lumens, for a total power consumed of 0.72 watts on a 36 volt supply. The array of three Luxeon K2 Star LEDs, driven as described, will give about 390 lumens for a total power consumed of about 54 watts.

My array gives about 31.25 lumens per watt, the Luxeon array gives about 7.22 lumens per watt - not very efficient at all really.

It would seem that the best way to get good efficiency would be to use a very large array of cheap 5mm white LEDs. Ten or eleven paralleled arrays like mine would give pretty much the same light output as three standard Luxeon Star LEDs (the 80 lumen ones), yet would only consume 7 to 8 watts.

Thermal runaway can't easily happen if you use constant current drive, although unless the LED is cooled adequately it could still over heat. The star LEDs look to be fairly easy to cool, as they have a nice alloy backplate. Cooling the current regulator would be harder, as 37 watts is a lot of heat to get rid of in a small space.

The best way to drive these Luxeon Star type LEDs would seem to be with a switch mode current source. This would be much harder to design and build, but would probably increase the power efficiency a lot and reduce the heat dissipation requirement for the regulator. At a guess, it should be possible to build an 85% efficient switch mode, which would reduce both the regulator power dissipation and the current drawn from the battery pack by a fair amount. Unfortunately I don't know where you might buy an off-the-shelf regulator that would do the job, although I'm sure they must be available somewhere.

Jeremy
 
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giguana

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Nov 8, 2007
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Star leds is an open standard so it is open to different manufacturers, but most of the market is held by lumileds/luxeon, I was thinking of K2 130 lumen stars that can handle 1500ma with a typical current of 1000ma @ 113 lumens, /34lm/w.... there's no way I would be losing 24 W with the converter I have! it's mostly a transformer, rated at more than 80% efficiency, wasting 24 W and using six is about 15% efficiency...the temperature of it reaches about 20°C over a surface area of 4cm²...much less than the lights

the converter will work on any battery, and it costs 1-2 pounds, and I can put on the latest and most powerful ultrabright lights, for the same reason that no good torches use small leds.

I would be into using 0.5 W of small leds to boost the ambient area around the bike, but I rather have 2 W for that, and some kind of torch beam of the same amount, at least to be able to see a couple of puddles a few metres in front. efficiency depends on the quality of the light and using medium settings within the typical range, I have to keep my eyes peeled for some aluminium, hopefully I can just make a radiator of some kind, I hope to have something very waterproof also.
 
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Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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I'm assuming that the 5 volt power supply you have is a switch mode one, as obviously a transformer won't work on DC, is this right? If this is the case, then it's likely to be around the efficiency I've described at the end of my last post as a suggested better solution.

It looks like your going to have to drive these LEDs in a parallel string, from your 5 volt regulated supply provided by your switch mode regulator, with individual current limiting resistors, is this right?

If so, then you will still be using quite a bit of power. The regulator will need to deliver about 4.5 amps for the worst case condition, if you are to keep things around the optimum range. The current limiting resistors will need to be selected to keep the worst case current below the absolute maximum rating of 1500mA per LED. Worst case is the lowest forward voltage drop of 3 volts, so each limiting resistor needs to be 1.33 ohms, an odd value best made up by using a 1 ohm and 0.33 ohm resistor in series for each LED. The three 1 ohm resistors will need to be rated at greater than 2.25 watts each, the three 0.33 ohm resistors will need to be rated at greater than 1.125 watts each.

Such an arrangement would give an LED forward current range over the spread of forward voltage with temperature of between 375mA (for the 4.5 volt case), to 1500mA (for the 3 volt case) for each LED. I think it unlikely that the 4.5 volt case would be encountered often, so I don't think this would be a problem. At the nominal spec sheet forward voltage drop of about 3.7 volts, then each LED forward current would be just under 1000mA with these series resistors, which seems about ideal.

Assuming that your regulator is a switch mode one, and is around 85% efficient, then three of these LEDs run like this, at a nominal 1 amp each, will consume a total power from your battery of about 18 watts, rather than the 54 watts I described for the linear regulator version earlier in my last post.

18 watts is still quite high though. For that much power you will get about 340 lumens, or about 19 lumens per watt. It's still nowhere near as efficient a system as a big array of cheap LEDs I'm afraid!

Best of luck with it, I hope the above helps a bit.

Jeremy