Taxpayer-funded electric bikes to get more cyclists on roads

Julie

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Jul 30, 2014
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Does anyone know anything about government subsidies on electric bikes that might be upcoming? An article in The Times newspaper suggests it is going to happen . “The subsidy level is yet to be fixed but if it mirrors the electric car scheme, it would mean a third off the price.”
 

oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Does anyone know anything about government subsidies on electric bikes that might be upcoming? An article in The Times newspaper suggests it is going to happen . “The subsidy level is yet to be fixed but if it mirrors the electric car scheme, it would mean a third off the price.”
Look forward to 50% price hikes - followed by 33% off. (Assuming that hasn't already happened.)
 

Gavin

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May 11, 2020
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Look forward to 50% price hikes - followed by 33% off. (Assuming that hasn't already happened.)
Alternatively, it might encourage large-volume sellers to enter the market with a discount business model.

The price of mid and high-end ebikes has increased ludicrously over the last 3-4 years, partly because it's such a niche market.
 

oyster

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Alternatively, it might encourage large-volume sellers to enter the market with a discount business model.

The price of mid and high-end ebikes has increased ludicrously over the last 3-4 years, partly because it's such a niche market.
Can certainly hope that the market becomes more accessible to more people - however that happens. So long as it doesn't sell bikes but leave buyers without adequate support. Big boys have a tendency to be very effective at supplying the products, often at good prices, and very poor at providing any form of ongoing support.
 

cyclebuddy

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Big boys have a tendency to be very effective at supplying the products, often at good prices, and very poor at providing any form of ongoing support.
You only have to read many threads on this forum to see that an awful lot of people buy e-bikes solely on the low advertised price (Hands-up... I'm as guilty as any). Any form of after-sales service costs money: A fair margin would need to be added to that ticket price if support is what you want/expect.
 
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Gavin

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A fair margin would need to be added to that ticket price if support is what you want/expect.
When you look at the top end of the market, an (un)fair margin has already been added, and yet you don't seem to get much support. "Sorry sir/ madam, we'll have to send it back to the factory for repair"....

In contrast, anyone who's been on this forum for a while will know that there's two retailers in particular who appear to offer fantastic support AND very competitive pricing.

You're right, good service does cost money. But it's also an attitude that runs through the culture of a business. And until the UK ebike market grows to the point where it's worth bigger players fighting over, the poor service that some of them display will (sadly) endure...
 

Scorpio

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Apr 13, 2020
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Look at the other government incentive schemes for an idea of what to expect.
The "Help to buy" scheme gives first time house buyers a sizeable loan that's intrest-free (for several year) towards the cost of a new-build home.
The result is builders have put the price of new-build homes up as they know some buyers will take the *free money* (many buyers are struggling to pay when then interest starts and loan repayments are due)
The knock-on effect is those home are expensive so it drives up the price of all homes. And the original buyers find they can't find anyone to pay near what they (with the help-to-buy loan) paid.

Be prepared for the scheme will make e-bikes more expensive in the medium/long term?
 
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oyster

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You only have to read many threads on this forum to see that an awful lot of people buy e-bikes solely on the low advertised price (Hands-up... I'm as guilty as any). Any form of after-sales service costs money: A fair margin would need to be added to that ticket price if support is what you want/expect.
The biggest problem, as I see it, is that bikes with problems just get dumped. Selling the idea of e-bikes as a green measure, then seeing untold numbers dumped, scrapped, well before their potential lives undermines all that justification.
 
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Gavin

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May 11, 2020
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The biggest problem, as I see it, is that bikes with problems just get dumped. Selling the idea of e-bikes as a green measure, then seeing untold numbers dumped, scrapped, well before their potential lives undermines all that justification.
Agreed. And not just bikes, every consumer item in the modern world.

Roll on 2021 when "right to repair" comes into force. It'll be interesting to see how the likes of Mr Bosch react to that....
 

cyclebuddy

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When you look at the top end of the market, an (un)fair margin has already been added, and yet you don't seem to get much support. "Sorry sir/ madam, we'll have to send it back to the factory for repair"....
I see the point you're making, but that seems to relate mostly to premium mid-motored e-bikes. Granted, local bike-shop knowledge on "electrics" is sadly lacking beyond "replace the motor, replace the controller, replace the display, replace the battery", but is that the fault of the dealer? Bosch certainly insist on a return to factory policy not only for e-bike motors, but also their professional power tools (as another example). I'm told they do that to understand where the problems are and likely causes "for future product development". Yes, it's a great inconvenience, but if you don't like that policy don't buy their products. So I don't.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that bikes with problems just get dumped. Selling the idea of e-bikes as a green measure, then seeing untold numbers dumped, scrapped, well before their potential lives undermines all that justification.
Are they really all dumped though? The problem is most likely caused by people like me with mid-drive e-bikes, where the motors employed will become obsolete very quickly, and the frames then useless (although could be stripped of other useful parts). Maybe there's a future industry in someone grinding off the obsolete motor mounting brackets, welding on new ones that fit new motor models, and refinishing the frame?

My local Council certainly retrieves all "cast-off" bikes and containerises them at the local tidy tip for collection by Charity bike shops. The Charities salvage re-usable parts and put most of those bikes back into service for those who cannot otherwise afford to buy one. The bikes get a second lease of life, provide jobs/training, and provide a useful asset to those most in need. Not sure how many other Councils do that though.
 

Gavin

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May 11, 2020
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The problem is most likely caused by people like me with mid-drive e-bikes, where the motors employed will become obsolete very quickly
I'm curious @cyclebuddy , what makes a motor (or anything on a bike) obsolete?

In my view, obsolescence is partly caused by the user's attitude to the product. If something still performs the task that it was bought/ made for then it's not obsolete. And the fact that there's a newer version on the market certainly doesn't make it obsolete...

Personally I think it's incumbent upon us all to keep products working for as long as possible to minimise the environmental impact of their manufacture. When they break, fix them...
 

01wellsd

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Apr 30, 2020
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Bristol
Look at the other government incentive schemes for an idea of what to expect.
The "Help to buy" scheme gives first time house buyers a sizeable loan that's intrest-free (for several year) towards the cost of a new-build home.
The result is builders have put the price of new-build homes up as they know some buyers will take the *free money* (many buyers are struggling to pay when then interest starts and loan repayments are due)
The knock-on effect is those home are expensive so it drives up the price of all homes. And the original buyers find they can't find anyone to pay near what they (with the help-to-buy loan) paid.

Be prepared for the scheme will make e-bikes more expensive in the medium/long term?
Don't forget that the interest free loan is an equity loan. So if the value of your house goes up, so does the loan when you payback or sell. But if the value of your house goes down, the loan stays the same!
They've got you both ways!
 
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Benjahmin

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Nov 10, 2014
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PV solar panels were a case in point. I had a 1.75KW systems installed just before the end of the origional feed in tarrif scheme. It meant I got tax free paymrnts of around 50p/unit for the next 25 years. The install cost me £7k. My neighbour had a full 4KW system installed about 6 months later, when the feed in tarrif was less than 50% of what I got. Amazingly the install price was also £7k. Systems are even less now that the feed in tarrif is a joke.
If there's a gov subsidy on bikes - bet the same would happen.
Money would be far better spent on proper infrastructure and public informstion campaign telling drivers that cyclists are legal road users too, to be treated with respect and not cut up.
 

jimriley

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Jun 17, 2020
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Agreed. And not just bikes, every consumer item in the modern world.

Roll on 2021 when "right to repair" comes into force. It'll be interesting to see how the likes of Mr Bosch react to that....
The right to repair... What's the betting that Dominic won't let Bozzer take it on board, its an EU thing, we will be out on our own dealing with a major recession. Still, Chlorinated Chicken will be cheap.
 

GSV3MiaC

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Jun 6, 2020
211
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I'm curious @cyclebuddy , what makes a motor (or anything on a bike) obsolete?

<snip>
IMO, new technology which so far surpasses the original that it's worth making a swap. Eg 12v lead acid batteries don't cut it these days (ditto incandescent bulbs, 'E' efficiency home appliances, etc).

But leaving that aside, there is indeed too much 'throw it away, this year's colour is different', but that's all tied up with the 'GDP has to keep growing, or the world will end' view of society.
 
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Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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cyclebuddy

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Nov 2, 2016
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Beds & Norfolk
I'm curious @cyclebuddy , what makes a motor (or anything on a bike) obsolete?
I agree with everything you say. What I really meant was when that bike becomes beyond economic repair... i.e. it's going to cost more to fix than it's worth.

A good example would be the Kalkhoff e-bikes with the Daum/Impulse motor.

The same inevitable fate awaits all mid-drive e-bikes, where alternative/replacement motors simply don't fit the existing frame.
 

Julie

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Jul 30, 2014
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Gainsborough England
I agree with everything you say. What I really meant was when that bike becomes beyond economic repair... i.e. it's going to cost more to fix than it's worth.

A good example would be the Kalkhoff e-bikes with the Daum/Impulse motor.

The same inevitable fate awaits all mid-drive e-bikes, where alternative/replacement motors simply don't fit the existing frame.
Would it be possible to add a hub motor to a mid drive bike, of coarse using a different battery, display and controller.
That’s what I’m hoping to do when my Bosch dies and if no replacements are available. It seems wrong to discard a quality frame.
 

Gavin

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May 11, 2020
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Would it be possible to add a hub motor to a mid drive bike, of coarse using a different battery, display and controller.
That’s what I’m hoping to do when my Bosch dies and if no replacements are available. It seems wrong to discard a quality frame.
Oh dear, it doesn't say much for Bosch's brand when their customers are planning how to fix their products before they've even broken!

In answer to your question, anything is possible with the right knowledge, skill and (above all else) time.
 

sjpt

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Jun 8, 2018
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Oh dear, it doesn't say much for Bosch's brand when their customers are planning how to fix their products before they've even broken!
No, unless you are almost 100% sure something will be reliable for a reasonable period (say 10 years) a sensible buying decision will consider possible repair inconvenience and cost. Sadly, both of these are high on Bosch systems.

For a non-electric bike that might be 20 years.
 
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