The Anything Thread that is Never off subject.

Woosh

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Angela Rayner paid the normal SDLT (£30,000) on her new flat as main residence.
She should have declared it as an additional home (and pay £51,500, short: £21,500) although she no longer owns her old home and is using the new flat as her main residence.
This, according to ChatGPT, is an easy mistake to make.

From ChatGPT:

What she should have paid

Because she already owned another property, the 3% “higher rates for additional dwellings” applied. This surcharge is added to each band.


SDLT bands (additional property):


  • 3% on first £250,000
  • 8% on £250,001–£925,000

Calculation on £800,000:


  • 3% on first £250,000 = £7,500
  • 8% on the next £550,000 = £44,000

Total = £51,500.
 

Benjahmin

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Great, lets all trust Chat GPT to work out our tax liability. I'm sure it'll handle the complexities of the self employed accurately :p
What would happen if my version og Gpt argued with the I.R. version?
Wasn't there an episode of The Prisoner where a computer was repeatedly asked the question 'why' to anything it said. It very soon went up in smoke.
Could we soon be seeing server farms going up in smoke as thousands of people want to know the reason for life the universe and everything?:eek::D
 

Woosh

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People ask Dr Google all the time. ChatGPT is a lot better, I even upload my x-ray asking it to check.
I used to use Google a lot. Now I almost never bother. I just ask ChatGPT. It knows me better than I know myself.
 

flecc

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Further to this - I've been working and paying tax since I was 16. I've been told that part of this is to pay for the NHS.
In Wales it is impossible to get an NHS dentist, so we have to pay. My wife is in a great deal of pain at the moment, needing a hip replacement. But, with a 3-5 year waiting list, maybe, we are having to pay.
How come these outgoings, that I've supposedly spent my whole working life paying for, are not tax detuctable?
You're right it's all too complicated, but probably deliberately so.**

Originally at inception, the health service was intended to be a component of the welfare state, funded by National Insurance, but that was never anything like sufficient and the general taxation fund had be employed.

Now the NHS is funded mainly by general taxation but also in part by a contribution from the National Insurance Fund, in part by patient charges for NHS dental treatments, in part by prescription charges and also charges for NHS treatment of non-nationals.

But of course none of those other income sources have refundable or deductable elements, nor could have since it isn't practical to work out the proportions applicable for any individual. So we pay twice.

**It's a variant on David Cameron's "Big Society" confidence trick, remember that? They tax us for the services we need, but since they often fail to provide those services, we are expected to be volunteers to make up the shortfall wherever possible, sometimes of necessity paying again with our hard earned cash.
.
 

Woosh

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Could we soon be seeing server farms going up in smoke as thousands of people want to know the reason for life the universe and everything
It's an unlikely scenario. Unlike traditional datacentres like those powering FB, Google, Netflix, AI servers don't need much space, require simpler connections, no need for UPS, can easily use renewables exclusively. All they do is compute. They can be located in space.
 

MikelBikel

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Now 7 politicians from same party in same region!
Not quite Mexican Elekshuns level, but the mass acre seems to be under way..
Didn't something like this happen in 193?.. ?
 

Woosh

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Now 7 politicians from same party in same region!
Not quite Mexican Elekshuns level, but the mass acre seems to be under way..
Didn't something like this happen in 193?.. ?
Actually, 8 candidates died. The number of candidates is huge by our standard, 20,000 for Nord Rhine Westphalia. 8 out of about 20,000 for this aged group (they are all in the 59-71 years olds). is not very strange, just that 6 of the 8 are AfD makes you wonder. Perhaps Kay Gottschalk and Alice Weidel may know more than they let out. The local police is still looking into those deaths.
 
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Tony1951

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The whole Rayner debacle points to one thing. The tax code is overly complex.
Doesn't matter if it's stamp duty, income tax, inheritance, VAT, N.I., the whole shebang is so full of if's, but's and maybe's that I doubt anyone (even 'experts') can be fully conversant with it.

A few years ago a mate of mine was working as a self employed carpenter - like me- below vat threshold. His wife did his year end books and submitted to the inland revenue. He was contacted by them and told that he would have to redo his books as he was not allowed to claim the vat element of materials, he had bought for clients, against his profit. The I.R. advisor was adamant and it was weeks before his wife managed to escalate the complaint and it got sorted.

For the past two years my accountant has got my 'profit' to be exactly £1 above the income tax threshold. I don't know how he's done that (and I don't ask or understand the figures I'm looking at) but the I.R. have accepted it. I suspect it's something to do with degredation of vehicle, tools and materials bought for workshop construction. If I were doing it myself I think I would be paying tax.
So would that be the I.R. taking advantage of my ignorance? Or is what I'm doing tax avoidance?
Tax avoidance is absolutely legitimate. It means you abide by the reliefs allowed in the rules. Examples are allowances for ISAs, payment of income into pensions and many other examples.

It is evasion - lying and sneaking around with false accounting or simply hiding cash payments which is criminal and against the rules.

The IR is very fierce when ordinary people make mistakes too. The normal practice when the rules were broken, but it looks like a genuine error without intent, is to fine the individual far more than they actually owe, plus demanding the owed money.

Some people though make a habit of breaking the rules.

If you remember Rayner had trouble last time she sold a house. She was living with her then husband at his house - everyone knew that, including her neighbours, and she sold the house she had owned on her own which everyone around the areas said she did not live at. This mean that she ought to have paid capital gains tax of several thousand pounds, but she told the solicitor during the sale process that she lived at the house being sold as her main address. Somehow - that small scandal just went away and it was decided that she need not pay the CGT which by the rules certainly seemed to be owed as discussed in many newspapers at the time.

I have no idea how she managed that, because I doubt that any of us would have got away with it.

Now - she is at it again - oh and it isn't her fault...... Again.

If you are in public life, you had better get your damned taxes right.

Or is it one rule for her and another for you and me? Again......


Edit:

Remember this?

 
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Woosh

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Somehow - that small scandal just went away and it was decided that she need not pay the CGT which by the rules certainly seemed to be owed as discussed in many newspapers at the time.
Many people mistakenly think buying a second property means you owe CGT on the first — but that’s only if it was not your main residence.
She used to live there so had full PRR, no CGT was due.
I thought you knew that. People buy their new home first then sell their old home later.
 
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Tony1951

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Many people mistakenly think buying a second property means you owe CGT on the first — but that’s only if it was not your main residence.
She used to live there so had full PRR, no CGT was due.
In the previous case, her neighbours said she was not living there.

She was not living there.

The house she sold was not her main residence and was subject to CGT.

In this new case - the very woman who piously demanded Nadim Zawari resign over tax issues now admits that she did not pay tax that is due. She was very firm that his tax problem required his resignation, but won't resign herself now she is in the frame for an admitted tax anomaly.

Did you watch her video? It is pretty clear that then she thought the matter was clear cut, only now....... Not so much.

This is a slam dunk. She must resign, or we must accept that what she says about one tax issue for someone else, does not apply to her when she does it.

Too many politicians are pretty dirty when you look into their affairs. It is not good enough when the ordinary person never gets the same leeway.


No wonder more and more people are disillusioned and furious about UK politics and are voting for new parties. Whether such parties are better or worse remains to be seen but I think the parliament with very few exceptions has fallen into disrepute.
 

Woosh

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She was not living there.
again, that's ignorance. You don't have to be living there all the time you own it. You only need to prove that the property was your main residence for a substantial time and was not let out. Rayner lived in another house that she did not own before selling her old home. That does not count against her PRR entitlement.

Here is Google:

Rules for PRR
The rules for Private Residence Relief (PRR) are designed to ensure that homeowners are not taxed on the gains from the sale of their main residence. Here are the key rules to keep in mind:
 

Woosh

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Too many politicians are pretty dirty when you look into their affairs. It is not good enough when the ordinary person never gets the same leeway.


No wonder more and more people are disillusioned and furious about UK politics and are voting for new parties. Whether such parties are better or worse remains to be seen but I think the parliament with very few exceptions has fallen into disrepute.
People don't fact check before reaching conclusions. Tax stuffs are complicated. I am pretty OK with it because I ran a business in France with a partner and am used to French bureaucracy before coming to the UK.
 

Tony1951

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I note as usual - you ignore the main issue.

The main issue here is whether she ought to resign (as she demanded Zahawi resign) over a mistake.

In his case, he had established a company 25 years before which over time became very successful. He had given founder's shares to his father at that time in recognition of capital put in and invaluable advice given.

Many years down the line HMRC decided that too much had been given to his father and that he owed about 3 million in unpaid tax and a penalty of 30% amounting to about £4.5 million.

Rayner, Dodds and others demanded Zahawi resign.

He was sacked in 2023 over the matter.

HMRC accepted that the tax error was not deliberate.

When is Rayner going to resign or be sacked....

I'm not holding my breath.
 

Woosh

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I asked ChatGPT about this. It's not £21,500 and Zahawi tried to shut it down.

What Happened?
1. Offshore Trust & Founder Shares

  • When Zahawi co-founded YouGov in 2000, the founder shares that might have gone to him were instead allocated to Balshore Investments, a Gibraltar-registered company controlled by a family trust. This trust ultimately sold a stake in YouGov for around £27 million The GuardianWikipediawww.rossmartin.co.uk.
  • If those shares had been held in Zahawi’s name, he would have incurred approximately £3.7 million in Capital Gains Tax (CGT) The GuardianWikipediawww.rossmartin.co.uk.
2. HMRC Investigation & Settlement

3. Breach of Ministerial Code

  • Most politically damaging was Zahawi’s failure to disclose the ongoing HMRC investigation when he served in senior government roles—including Chancellor and Party Chair. This was deemed a serious breach of the ministerial code The GuardianAP NewsITVXBBCWikipedia.
  • Following an ethics investigation by Sir Laurie Magnus, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak dismissed Zahawi from his posts in January 2023 The GuardianAP NewsITVXWikipedia.
4. Attempts to Silence Criticism

  • Zahawi’s lawyer attempted to suppress criticism of his tax affairs. The lawyer was later fined by the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal for trying to block publication of materials related to his tax situation—a case that raised concerns about SLAPP (strategic lawsuit against public participation) tactics The TimesReuters.
 

Woosh

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The main issue here is whether she ought to resign (as she demanded Zahawi resign) over a mistake.
You jumped to the wrong conclusion. She did not owe CGT so it wasn't a mistake nor a reason to resign at the time she was compared to Zahawi. She has never been a smooth talker like Jenrick so she got herself mudstuck by the media.
This time, she did not pay the correct amount of stamp duty. Receiving wrongful tax advice is not good enough. I expect she would be gone soon. It's a bit of a shame. My daughter in law works in her department and said she is a good boss.
 
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Tony1951

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Rayner is probably on the hook for stamp duty of around £40,000 plus penalties and maybe also second homes council tax.
 

Woosh

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Rayner is probably on the hook for stamp duty of around £40,000 plus penalties and maybe also second homes council tax.
she does not owe £40,000. ChatGPT made it £21,500. I don't think penalties apply for this sort of cases. Stamp duty does not affect council tax.

ChatGPT:

HMRC penalty framework

HMRC looks at:


  • Reasonable care – no penalty if the mistake was genuine and a person took reasonable steps (e.g. relied on professional advice).
  • Careless error – up to 30% penalty.
  • Deliberate understatement – 20–70% penalty.
  • Deliberate and concealed – up to 100%.

On top of this, statutory interest is always payable on the underpaid tax.
 

Woosh

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Your lover has it wrong.

It's possible.

Grok:

Based on expert analyses and HMRC's penalty framework for Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) underpayments, the probability that HMRC fully accepts Angela Rayner's explanation—treating the error as non-punishable due to reasonable reliance on professional advice, with no penalty imposed—is estimated at around 20-30%. This assessment considers her self-reporting, the nature of the initial advice, and precedents where penalties are often applied even when advice was sought.

### Key Factors Influencing HMRC's Decision
- **Classification as Careless vs. Deliberate**: HMRC distinguishes between "careless" errors (up to 30% penalty on underpaid tax) and "deliberate" ones (70% or higher). Rayner's case appears unlikely to be deemed deliberate, as there's no evidence of intent to evade tax; she relied on initial advice from a conveyancer and trust experts, later corrected by a tax barrister. Experts like Sean Randall and James Quarmby agree it's probably careless, reducing the chance of severe penalties but not eliminating them.
- **Reliance on Professional Advice**: HMRC may waive or suspend penalties if "reasonable care" was taken, such as seeking qualified advice. However, Rayner's initial advisers were not confirmed tax specialists, and experts note that blaming advisers isn't always a defense if the advice was "obviously wrong" or details (e.g., about her son's trust) weren't fully disclosed. Precedents show penalties upheld despite advice, like a case where a 19.5% penalty was imposed on a careless SDLT return.
- **Self-Reporting and Disclosure**: Her unprompted contact with HMRC after media scrutiny could mitigate penalties (0-30% range for careless unprompted disclosures). But HMRC issues thousands of penalties annually for careless errors (e.g., over 18,000 in one year across taxes), suggesting waivers aren't routine.
- **Expert Risk Assessments**: Tax specialists describe a "significant" or "high" risk of fines (e.g., 20-30% of the £40,000 underpayment, or £8,000-£12,000). No experts predict full acceptance without repercussions, though political scrutiny might encourage leniency.

### Potential Outcomes
| Outcome | Description | Estimated Probability | Rationale |
|---------|-------------|-----------------------|-----------|
| Full Acceptance (No Penalty) | HMRC deems reasonable care taken; error excused with only back tax paid. | 20-30% | Low due to non-specialist initial advice and HMRC's scrutiny of disclosure quality. |
| Reduced/Suspended Penalty | Careless classification with partial waiver or suspension (e.g., conditions like improved compliance). | 50-60% | Common for self-corrections; HMRC can suspend careless penalties. |
| Full Penalty Imposed | 15-30% fine on underpaid amount, plus interest. | 20-30% | High if HMRC views advice reliance as inadequate. |

These probabilities are subjective estimates derived from expert commentary and HMRC patterns, as no official statistics exist on waiver rates for similar SDLT cases. HMRC has up to 12 months (or longer for careless errors) to assess, so the outcome may evolve. If new details emerge, this could shift.
 
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