Torq or Swizzbee

[Minnesota]

Hi I am new to this forum. I came across it while doing research on bikes and was really impressed with all the useful information.

I really like the Torq, but from what I have read, hills are not what the Torq is known for. I have seen a little bit of information on the Swizzbee and it seems like hills are not a problem. Does anybody have any thoughts on the Swizzbee. Also, and perahps even more important, do you know if a Swizzbee could even be purchased from the states. I live in frigid Minnesota and while we have lots of choices for snowmobiles, these types of bikes are non-exsistent.

Thanks
Neil

 

[coops]

Hi Neil & welcome to pedelecs!

I found this forum the same way as you & was likewise impressed.

Sadly I don't own a Torq, and I'm not familiar with the "legendary" Swizzbee but before Torq & Swizzbee owners speak, I can say something about the Torq.

Its true that the Torq is not the best known for hills, but it does have a powerful motor (albeit geared for speed, not climbs) & can handle moderately steep gradients better than many weaker motors, & at speed too!

It really depends how hilly the terrain you want to cover is, how fast you want to go & given what you say about your climate, how they handle cold & snow I guess!

As to availability in the States of the Swizzbee again, I'm sorry again I really have no idea - but they seem a rare breed even in the U.K. & maybe most of Europe too! (I've heard they're quite pricey?).

There maybe other options open to you & readily available in the U.S., that meet your needs, though I'm not sure what special requirements the cold & snow would bring? (battery warmers perhaps?) Perhaps others here from colder climes may help with that one.

First thing is, how hilly do you want to go on your bike? If you can quantify the steepness & length it helps, like percentage gradients if you have them

Stuart.

 

[Minnesota]

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your reply. I am not sure what the hills are in terms of gradient. From everything I have read, the Torq really seems like the best bike for most situations. I am just concerned because of the number of hills I have for my 15 mile trek each way to work. I intend to pedal as much as possible. The hills are what really wear me down. I am not concerned about speed as much as I am concerned about the Torq making it up the hill. Have you heard anything about the IZips? I have been curious about the Street Enlightened. What brand do you have or what is of interest?

Thanks
Neil

 

[coops]

You're welcome hope it was useful.

Sounds kind of hilly then others will be able to say more, but how well the Torq performs in hills depends a lot on the gradient: though it benefits from generous pedalling its just not geared (motor or drivetrain) for low speed & steep hills just require more power to climb faster...

Your best bet if you're seriously considering the Torq is to gauge your steepest climbs & from that estimate if its doable in a pedal-assisted torq, I'd say .

Quite a few interesting bikes around here at the moment: odd you mention the Izip as I'm looking into one right now, but its a 2006 model from the U.S. I think its from the Currie Mongoose range - comfort bike, with 450W peak power output & 15mph (U.K. legal) top motor speed. Heavyish steel frame but a useful looking budget bike.

I'm guessing the Street Enlightened is part of the new Izip range in the U.S.? Not seen them here - yet! Look nice, bet battery upgrades will be pricey though with the custom design? Couldn't tell what sort of motor they use - hub or Currie?

P.S. I meant to add that for a 15 mile each way journey, you'll probably have to think about your ebike range carefully, especially as power for hills drains the battery faster & reduces the usual "ideal flat & windless terrain" range estimates proportionally.

P.P.S Here's a useful guide to measuring you hill's percentage gradient from this forum .

P.P.P.S I should also add that, if you are buying an ebike in particular to help with hills, then that's another reason to choose carefully - all ebikes are definitely not equal when it comes to hills!

 

[Minnesota]

The more I read, the more it appears that the Torq might not be the best bike for me. I know from biking the route on my current bike that I am nowhere near the 12 mph you mentioned that is needed for the Torq to work mph. I am going to research the I zip and see what the good ole internet has to say about them. I want to get some good exercise in, but those darn hills are doing me in. Have you heard of any other bikes that can tackle hills?

Neil

 

[coops]

I wouldn't worry about doing 12mph - the Torq will take care of that, and besides, peak power output for the restricted torq (in the U.K. - probably different in the U.S. though - higher speed limit there?) may be quite a bit less - sort of scaled down speed & power by about 1/3? You'd only have to put in enough pedal power to keep it at that speed which, depending on the hill, may or may not be doable as you say....

Maybe if your hills are really steep (Torqs here, depending on fitness, level of rider input & weight, can attain up to 1 in 10 (10%) or more, but none too easily!) you're better off with an ebike more designed for hills, with more torque & acceleration.

The best rated bikes for sheer climbing ability are ones like the Giant Twist (though they are rare now & discontinued range) & I think the Swizzbee too, which have motor drive through the same chain as the rider: it powers via the same gears & can thus maximise power for each gearspeed - also very efficient & economical - almost twice as economical as most hub motors in average terrain, probably more so in hills... however they are also limited by the speed of the bikes gears - so lower hill climbing speed too.

Most common now are hub motors which though limited to one "gear" can be good climbers if they have high peak power output & are highly gear-reduced internally to put maximum power at rather lower speed (some hub motor "kits" such as some of the Heinzmann ones do this), or alternatively geared normally but put in smaller wheels, so giving higher torque e.g. the ezee Quando, which has the Torq motor in 20" wheels & does ~15-17 mph on flat but climbs very steep hills - up to 1 in 7 or 8 & steeper has been said (12.5-14%).

That's what to look for in any hill bike really - sufficient peak power output (say, 400-500W peak minimum) at a moderate speed should do for motor power, & appropriate gearing for legpower to assist .

The Currie motors (used on Izip? - I'll check those out to see) have good power & torque for climbing, but as I said, you'll have to keep an eye on the range too for your journey - & the more power you use for hills, the less you'll have for range, and ebike batteries can be pretty weighty, though some carry a spare (when needs must for range) with no problem & they can be very easily & quickly swapped over (while stationary ).

There's lots of information on this forum as you say, though more info is needed on bikes available in the U.S. & other countries. I'll have a look too & if I find anything useful I'll post it here

Many Ezee bikes can handle steep hills very well - the Quando, Sprint, Chopper, Liv, all good, but U.S. availability I don't know? Bionx, the Canadian venture, is a popular conversion where available (it is in the U.S.), but not best for hills like the Torq I fear (the 350W version may be ok... but still not ideally suited).

The bike I'm eyeing here is a Currie Izip (mongoose type, CB) which would be useful for hills, but a bit heavy framed & the older lead acid type batteries might not do even your outward leg.

However, don't be disheartened, hill climbing is possible with ease with the right bike - read here more for proof so fingers crossed you find what you need .

I hope others may suggest bikes you can get in the U.S., but the ezee range if you can get may be a start hope that helps

Stuart.

 

[Minnesota]

Stuart,

Do you know if the Giant Lite is anything like the discontinued Giant Twist? I was looking on the website nycewheels.com and they sell this one along with the Torq. There were a couple of favorable reviews on the Giant Twist. I also read a that guy who rode is bike from Minnesota to the end of the Mississippi I am sure he must have hit some hills along his check.

I haven't found any dealers that have the I Zips. On the Izip website, I see they have a bike called the Trekking LI uses a Lithium battery. I wonder how this one would do on hills.

 

[coops]

I've had a quick look at the izip street enlightened & I'm a bit confused? It says the hub motor is a Currie, except it looks to me from the spec to be an average/low-powered & high geared hub motor bike - best suited for good speed on flat/gentle terrain, not good for moderate or steep hills - probably less so than the Torq.

Currie do make motors differing in power, but most are quite if not very powerful, and I've not heard of a Currie hub motor before, so it may be worth enquiring about the peak power output (not input!), though the speed is still a bit fast to make it a good hill contender.

It seems very similar to some ebikes here, except faster at 18mph. Looks quite stylish though, but that won't win the hill over .

 

[coops]

Sorry Neil, missed your last post somehow

The Giant Twist/Lite etc. confuse me since the original Twist powered through the drivetrain as I said, but the "2007 Twist" is a shadow of that (apparently, I've heard) and has a hub motor instead, so beware of going by the name alone! Not sure about the lite - others will know more, but if you search here its been mentioned I'm sure. I think there's a Giant Twist Lite, may be similar to the twist with different gearing?

EDIT: I checked the "Giant Lite" at Nycewheels, looks the same type of bike as the highly-rated Twist, but check what else has been said about the Lite here to be sure what are the differences - as I said I get confused by same name different bike & vice versa going on!

As I said, the Torq can do moderately steep hills, and speed too! - it has a powerful motor of 570W peak input, (around 450W output).

From what I read here, Lithium batteries are not as good for hills as NiMH, which are also much cheaper, albeit a bit heavier.

P.S. From the IzipUSA site, seems to be an amazon retail outlet for Izip?

P.P.S. The Izip Li trekking NuVinci is an interesting bike to see there - it uses a new innovative variable geared hub (for motor or pedal gears, I'm uncertain), been discussed here & may be used in more bikes in the izip range in future - looks pricey esp. with lithium batteries, but definitely one to watch... I'm interested to see whether reviews are favourable.

 

[coops]

In case you're at all interested in a budget (& also "upgradeable") option Neil, since it may be still available in the U.S. for a low price (~$300?) there's a current thread on the Currie/Izip CB mongoose 2006 model in which among other things I've suggested it could be upgraded to NiMH batteries in the existing battery case, doubling the range to ~30miles, fairly affordably - possibly around another $350 with the charger, excluding cost of other modifications of connectors etc.

Also, I was just about to start a thread "Izip or Liv" though when this thread appeared! Since here we're expecting a major dealer - 50cycles - to get first delivery of the new Ezee Liv (new, less expensive ezee model - about half price of the Torq) on Monday, and that's my other main choice of quality "budget" ebike: it has a good spec - a quite powerful, reliable 36V motor with high capacity (9Ah) NiMH batteries (25-30 miles range with pedalling), & quite light alloy frame (29.2kg including battery & motor). I wonder if any U.S. Ezee dealers (Nycewheels?) will get this model, & soon?

Both these bikes are, I think, quite well suited to your needs & on a budget if the hills aren't too steep & if the izip batteries are upgraded, though both may require either some recharging or a spare battery (easier for the Liv than Izip... though izip with 12 or 13 Ah NiMH may just need a little recharge or none at all) .

P.S. though some of the info (battery weights) seems dated, you may find this page I came across interesting, especially the descriptions of the main e-assist bike types, use for hills, the U.S. legal position re ebikes & at the foot of the page, the Australian Currie review!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I'm a Torq owner in a hilly area, and from what you've said it's not for you. It's designed for speed and achieves that at the expense of hill climbing. That's exactly the opposite of the concerns that you expressed, when you said you weren't worried about speed but it was the hills that troubled you.

The Torq uses the motor that was designed for the eZee Quando where it's normally geared and can climb a 12% hill with a 12 stone rider not pedalling at all. The Torq with that motor and rider could climb a 6% only with certainty, in other words only half the climbing ability. These are tested findings as I own both models.

On slopes it can climb with the rider assisting, the Torq is faster than the Quando up them, and on the flat also much faster. If you've ever driven a stick shift, think of the Quando being in 3rd gear and the Torq being in top. Then you'll know what I mean about hill climbing versus speed.

The new Twist is a mediocre hill climber and nothing like the Twist Lite. The old Twist Lite is superb hill climber since it drives through the hub gears, with 5 of those in your US models, so no limit to it's climbing and towing abilities. However, it's motor isn't very powerful, so it's not very fast up the hills, expect to climb at around 6 mph on the steeper ones. The old twist Lite is still available through many US dealers, Nycewheels being an enthusiastic dealer for them on this link.

Hope this is some help.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Torq Talk

Hi Minnesota:
I have had a Torq for a few months and being 77 I am very interested to know just what the Torq will do with me on it. I do not produce many watts in power nor do I do it for very long - a hill of 10% (1 in 10) has a serious detrimental effect on my humour. The local hill (my nemesis) is 10% or 9% and is 1 Km (1000yards) long at that grade. I have to have three bites at it to get to the top in a state of exhaustion.
You will need to consider many factors to determine whether a hill can be climbed by yourself with ease or not:

GRADIENT: for this you will NOT have to get 'down and dirty' on the road. There is a useful (I would not call it wonderful because it is difficult to read on the move,cross-eyed with fatigue) device called an INCLINOMETER marketed in the US by Brands Cycle and Fitness - Sky Mounti Inclinometer $22-99 + shipping. It functions like a builder's level with graduations of 1%. Close enough for this purpose. You will need to ride the route on your human powered bike to take measurements of grade and distance (length of each hill).

WEIGHT: This obviously is an important factor. I have tried to get Subscribers to this Forum to disclose their weight when posting details of their experiences with hills. Words and phrases like 'steep', 'hilly', do not convey any comparative information without the real factors.
Your weight + bike + luggage (including a spare battery) will disclose a lot by way of comparison. Age and by definition, fitness, are factors but widely variable ones.

RANGE: This is another comparative that needs to be used with care. I don't put in much effort and I have got a useful 28 miles in flatish (not a helpful word)) terrain with a 10Ah Li-ion battery. Experts on this Forum have suggested that for hilly terrain a NiMh battery is a better bet. If you have a dedicated route (commute) you'll soon know the battery's limitations - being able to re-charge at the turn round point would be useful - the Li-ion battery takes 5 hours to charge to full from empty but can be boosted for any shorter time.

So once you have got your benchmark of what you find comfortable without a motor, the motor is clearly going to be a bonus.
The Torq (in UK law) is a better climber derestricted (on the flat it is capable of 22 mph on the motor alone but will run faster by 1 or 2 mph where conditions are favourable e.g following wind, slight downgrade). That is largely because the motor will keep putting out its maximum power whilst it is running faster and loses speed less quickly. A modest effort from the rider will make a big difference.

Its power begins to fall off at 12 mph and there is not much at 10 mph. though I find I can get useful power at 8 mph on a 10% grade - my stats are:
Age 77 - weight 193 lbs clothed + bike 54.5 lbs (Total, say, 250 lbs) - but I am having to put in serious pedaling to keep it moving. So I reckon from experience I am comfortable on 7% grades for about 500 yards.
We have a wonderful map making/publishing organisation here in Uk "Ordnance Survey" which publishes maps of scale 50,000 (the best for cycling) and 25,000 (for contour clarity). Such a map will disclose the severity of gradients without you leaving your armchair.

The threads on this Forum which are worth scrutiny are:
Gearing on a Torq and I've Lost the Thread
Of course, nothing beats borrowing a Torq and trying it out on a specimen hill.
Peter

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Minnesota to New Orleans

Hi:
I also read a that guy who rode is bike from Minnesota to the end of the Mississippi I am sure he must have hit some hills along his check.

I thought it was "Downhill all the way"!!

I should not say this really but for many reasons it was a good work out for the Torq - but NOT as regards hills.

I am looking for an e-bike that will take me over the Route des Alps, in France (a dream!). There are many Cols used in the Tour de France on this route. Col d'Iseran 6% x 16 Km, Col de Telegraph 7.3%/9% x 11.5 km, Col de Galibier 6.9%/10% x 17 Km, Col d'Izoard 5.5% x 21.5 km and there are quite a few more and that's only half way. It's the road that runs closest to the Italian Border without actually crossing it and leaving France.
If I could do that on an EZee bike (and live) I would be able to dine off it for ever.

Does not help you, I know, but it makes interesting chat.
Peter

 

[Tim]

I've had a quick look at the izip street enlightened & I'm a bit confused? It says the hub motor is a Currie, except it looks to me from the spec to be an average/low-powered & high geared hub motor bike - best suited for good speed on flat/gentle terrain, not good for moderate or steep hills - probably less so than the Torq.

Currie do make motors differing in power, but most are quite if not very powerful, and I've not heard of a Currie hub motor before, so it may be worth enquiring about the peak power output (not input!), though the speed is still a bit fast to make it a good hill contender.

It seems very similar to some ebikes here, except faster at 18mph. Looks quite stylish though, but that won't win the hill over .

I took a short test ride one Street Enlightened last month and was surprised at how weak the assistance was. Sure, it looks OK, but the components are pretty standard - gears, rims, etc, it's only 24V and I wouldn't like to replace the NiMH cells hidden in that tube. They've dropped the NuVinci gear system by the way and I believe Lithium option is some way off. And yes, it does run on a standard front hub motor, which is a shame because the rear-mounted Currie motor on the cheapest Izip has more guts.

We were considering selling them through 50cycles but I have to say, they didn't stand up very well against the eZee bikes and seemed rather overpriced for what you get. They are basically just a mid-range Chinese bike with some careful US styling.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Torq range - there's more.

Hi Neil:
It was not very informative of me to say 28 miles on 'flatish' terrain.

The ride from home to Shaftesbury is 20 miles. There is this one very long 9% - 10% hill (2.5 km of which 1 km is 9%-10%, the rest is 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%). One could describe the remainder of the 20 miles as 'undulating' - up and down not above 4% except one stretch in both directions 7% x 300 yards.
I did that journey on 1 charge/battery(li-ion) and there was 'quite a bit left' when I got back home - not scientifically evaluated.

My chief thoughts on this subject at present are "How much difference does gradient make (for a given rider and his luggage) to the range of 1 fully charged battery?" Downhill, with the speed limiter 'on' as required by UK law one does not use the motor - road speed is well above 15 mph. SO! the range of the battery is only half the miles you get (what goes up must come down).
Just musing: 5 miles up + 5 miles down + 10 miles flat seems a reasonable assumption. So it's 10 miles (flat) + 5 miles (up) x (say) 4 factor for the hills = 30 miles flat.
I bet this gets a storm of reponses. Just what I need.
Peter
PS. with the speed limiter OFF the range is much reduced - about 15 miles on 0ne li-ion battery (I am informed) - that's wizzing along on the flat at 22 mph.

 

[Krow]

Hi Neil,

I just went through the same exercise as you in trying to select a bike. Seattle is quite hilly and I live on one of the bigger ones. Hill climbing was one of my chief concerns.

From reading this site, I figured out that power through the drive chain is more effecient.

What we former colonists call the "Giant Lite" is the same line as the early "Giant Lafree/Twist". The one that NYCEWheels is selling has the 5 speed internal hub. I have one with a 4 speed hub. Flecc says they have the same gear range, but there's one extra stop along the way on the 5 speed hub.

The US model is set up for leisure riding. It doesn't come with the integrated lights - which would be nice. It also needs flaps and a rack for commuting, but those are easy to get.

So far, I really like the Giant Lite. I haven't taken any serious rides yet, but it does smooth out the long high hills quite a bit.

Another option I considered was putting power assist on one of my existing bikes. There are lots of hub based motor kits available. I was interested in one that drove through the gears. If you're handy at all, you might look at the Cyclone kit - Electric Bicycle Motor Kits from Cyclone-USA.

The Cyclone looks to do a good job on hills and you can pick the bike you want to attach it to.

good luck,

keith.

 

[flecc]

Hi Neil,
What we former colonists call the "Giant Lite" is the same line as the early "Giant Lafree/Twist". The one that NYCEWheels is selling has the 5 speed internal hub. I have one with a 4 speed hub. Flecc says they have the same gear range, but there's one extra stop along the way on the 5 speed hub.
keith.

I don't know where you've got this idea from Keith, but I have NEVER said that. The 4 speed Shimano hub has 184% range, the 5 speed SRAM P5 hub has 252% range, and I've always known that. ??????????????????????

In fact that 4 speed has marginally less range than the 3 speed Shimano!

Here's the quote from my website:

" - - - - the rather poor 4 speed Nexus hub which had no more range than the three speed, so offering similar peformance but for the slightly greater weight. During the life of this model, Shimano discontinued the 4 speed Nexus and Giant were forced to go to the SRAM 5 speed P5 hub, which was very much better, though dearer. With the gear range increased from the 184% of the Nexus to the 252% of the P5 - - - - - "
.

 

[Minnesota]

Peter,

I appreciate all your information. To answer some of your questions, I weigh 150 lbs, and am 37 in pretty good shape. I would not be taking any extra luggage execept the battery charger. The route is around 15 miles. I am sorry that I don't have better information on the hills. I can climb them on my regular bike, but in a low gear and going pretty slow.

Based on your knowlege and the knowledge of all the wonderful people on this site, at the end of the day what would be your choice for me. It sounds like the I zip is out, and the Swizzbee is out for price and location. So it would be between the Giant Lite on NYC wheels or the Torq. I am still confused on the Giant Lite. Does anybody have any thoughts on which one is better for hills and of course over all performance.

Again thankyou all for all of your help. As I mentioned earlier there isn't any dealers or people with your knowledge about these bikes in the frozen tundra.

Neil

 

[coops]

You're most welcome Neil
I just hope I didn't confuse you too much earlier

I think that the "Giant Lite" at Nycewheels is the "old Giant/Lafree Twist Lite" Flecc referred to (Lafree was their "brand" name prior to "Giant").

To me then its no contest - for hills, Twist Lite; for overall performance (if you mean flexibility, efficiency, enjoyment of it as an ebike or pedal only, rather than all-out speed),Twist Lite!

I'd check out the Twist Lite ASAP before they disappear forever (oh, except getting parts/tech support in future may be an issue, since the range has been discontinued, but they are it seems very reliable & well designed & built... & the standard NiMH Twist battery pack can be re-celled ok) & make sure its right for you - the power control through the pedals is subtle but clever I've heard - more power when you pedal slower.

I think the possible lack of parts & support is the only thing counting against the Twist lite, and should be considered carefully.

The Twist would also give maximum flexibility: it would allow you to ride in terrain of wider gradient range than almost all other bikes & also can be ridden without power-assist like a normal bike, which most ebikes cannot it seems .

 

[flecc]

Peter,
Based on your knowlege and the knowledge of all the wonderful people on this site, at the end of the day what would be your choice for me. It sounds like the I zip is out, and the Swizzbee is out for price and location. So it would be between the Giant Lite on NYC wheels or the Torq. I am still confused on the Giant Lite. Does anybody have any thoughts on which one is better for hills and of course over all performance.
Neil

Some of this I've answered in my posting at the top of this page Neil, here's the link to jump back.

My Twist Lite is a better ultimate hill climber than my Torq, but at lower speeds.

In summary, the Torq's very high fixed motor gearing means that it's steep hill climbing is limited, but those it can climb easily it does very fast. The US Twist can climb just about any steepness, but only slowly, since to climb steep hills it's motor drives through the same gears that you change down for yourself.

In general terms, for routes with hills up to 10% (1 in 10) with a moderately fit rider, the Torq will have the overall best performance.

With much steeper hills of 12% (1 in 8) or much steeper, only a very fit regularly cycling rider will cope with the Torq, and for those with less fitness the Twist will be better since it will cope, albeit more slowly.

It's impossible to give precise answers without knowing the fitness level of the rider and the steepness of the gradients of course. If you have a look at this posting you'll get an idea of the Torq's abilities against more normally geared models with four fitness levels of rider.

Here's how you can check your hill gradients:

You need a spirit level, you may have one already in a set square or separately, but if not, buy a cheap one from a DIY or tool shop. If you haven't got one, also get an extending rule with centimetres on it. Then get a strip of straight metal or wood and cut it to exactly 50 centimetres long. Tape an expanding rule on one end so that the tape extends down against the end of the 50 cm strip. Tape the spirit level next to it on the top surface of your straight strip and secure it firmly with tape or rubber bands.

That's your measuring apparatus complete. If the hill you want to measure isn't at home, you can tie that strip to your crossbar to ride to your destination.

Now on a representative sloping part of the hill, rest one end of your strip on the road surface with the spirit level above and the bubble kept centralised. With the other hand, hold the rule extended and vertical against the road directly above the other end of the strip and note the number of half centimetres measured where it meets the underside of the strip right at the end. Thats the percentage measure of your hill, it's as easy as that, just the distance from the road surface vertically to the 50 cm point on the underside of your strip. If it's 5.5 cm, there's 11 half centimetres so it's an 11% hill. Just make sure the bubble is central as you read the measurement.

P.S. If no centimetre rule is available, you can just use quarter inches of course, a 25" straight piece and use the quarters to measure the percentage of the hill. Here's a picture of it in use: