Torq owners: What is your top "motor-only" speed? (limited or delimited)

[coops]

Hi all,

Responses welcome from both limited & delimited Torqers!

15mph is the limited max "motor only" speed and I've read that one or two Torq owners on this forum do get 22mph on motor power alone on a delimited Torq i.e. no other assistance from slope or tailwind etc. so I just wanted to verify what is a normal top "motor only" speed since, though I've read 22mph is a theoretical delimited maximum & 15mph for limited, I have not achieved these speeds even under good, still & flat conditions.

I did go through the forum threads, but found none on this specific subject.

So as not to bias any response, I won't state my top speed yet, but my setup is as follows:

Original Kenda tyres, good pressure level ~50-60 PSI approx
Cateye Velo5 wheel size custom-set at 223cm
NiMH battery, new with several charge/discharge cycles ~40.7V fully charged.
Distance covered ~60 miles+
Unloaded (free-spinning) motor speed is about 26.7mph (full charge) - 25mph(low charge) & ~ 17.8mph (limited, full charge) if I recall correctly.

I want to reassure myself that my motor is performing comparatively normally; that's the reason for this request for information.

If you can state your top speed under motor power only, on a flat road with no significant wind if possible with say a fully or almost fully charged battery, and in temperatures like currently - around 15-20C, say, then that would be great, thanks! .

Although I think weight/size are factors, I don't think it makes much difference on the flat, but feel free to state your weight/height if you wish, & if it seems to be relevant I'll add my stats too .

Thanks,

Stuart.

 

[johnp]

Hi all,

Responses welcome from both limited & delimited Torqers!

15mph is the limited max "motor only" speed and I've read that one or two Torq owners on this forum do get 22mph on motor power alone on a delimited Torq i.e. no other assistance from slope or tailwind etc. so I just wanted to verify what is a normal top "motor only" speed since, though I've read 22mph is a theoretical delimited maximum & 15mph for limited, I have not achieved these speeds even under good, still & flat conditions.

I did go through the forum threads, but found none on this specific subject.

So as not to bias any response, I won't state my top speed yet, but my setup is as follows:

Original Kenda tyres, good pressure level ~50-60 PSI approx
Cateye Velo5 wheel size custom-set at 223cm
NiMH battery, new with several charge/discharge cycles ~40.7V fully charged.
Distance covered ~60 miles+
Unloaded (free-spinning) motor speed is about 26.7mph (full charge) - 25mph(low charge) & ~ 17.8mph (limited, full charge) if I recall correctly.

I want to reassure myself that my motor is performing comparatively normally; that's the reason for this request for information.

If you can state your top speed under motor power only, on a flat road with no significant wind if possible with say a fully or almost fully charged battery, and in temperatures like currently - around 15-20C, say, then that would be great, thanks! .

Although I think weight/size are factors, I don't think it makes much difference on the flat, but feel free to state your weight/height if you wish, & if it seems to be relevant I'll add my stats too .

Thanks,

Stuart.

HI Stuart
On my touq motor only I have got 22mph on a 2 way run up and back about 1/2 ml each way bike is standard 980 mls Li battery and I am 70kls
John

 

[coops]

Hi John

Thanks for the response & the info - wish I was that light! In a way I hope weight is a factor in this, that way it rules out any motor factors...

I should add that I'm very happy with the Torq, but just want to try to make sure all is ok before I do any major mods...

Thanks again for any replies

Stuart.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi coops
the set up on my torq is factory spec but i have changed the tyres to marathon plus plus saddle and removed mudgards rack and lights to give a sporty look which i think looks cool top speed has been 23mph on a smooth road surface with light wind NIGEL

 

[coops]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for all your information, though now I'm getting a bit more concerned that my Torq is underperforming?

I'm aware that batteries make a difference, but I thought that was more range than speed-related? 37V Li to 36V NiMH seems a small difference power-wise?

I'm guessing most of you use Li, but if you could specify that would be good.

I can't think of a major factor that should result in my top motor-only speed being lower? I won't say it yet, but wait to see if anyone has a different top speed from those quoted...

P.S. I'm just charging up at the moment, but when it's charged I'll re-check the fully-charged voltage. I don't think there's a battery issue since voltage & range seem quite normal...

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

23.2 mph Li-ion just off the charger and 22 mph NiMh, my weight currently 71 kilos and fairly small body frame so low wind resistance. Standard Kenda tyres.

I'm fortunate enough to have access to a large private estate so able to run derestricted for these test results. On a minutely negative road, have several times seen over 24 mph without pedalling, the motor perceptibly assisting to that. In fact it can go further in theory. On the Quando with the identical electrics and motor in a 20" wheel, I once saw 19 mph with a Li-ion just fresh off charging. Do the maths and you'll see that corresponds to 26.6 mph in the Torq 28" wheel. Of course it doesn't reach that due to both wind and other speed related resistances, but the potential to rev to that is there.

My speedos are set normally, then distance calibrated on an exact 4.9 mile route so are accurate. All the results are "best case" and in favourable conditions, when conditions vary even minutely the top speed can reduce to about 20 mph, and even just 1% of imperceptible incline slows the bike to 18 or below without pedalling.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

My statistics

Hi all,

Responses welcome from both limited & delimited Torqers!

15mph is the limited max "motor only" speed and I've read that one or two Torq owners on this forum do get 22mph on motor power alone on a delimited Torq i.e. no other assistance from slope or tailwind etc. so I just wanted to verify what is a normal top "motor only" speed since, though I've read 22mph is a theoretical delimited maximum & 15mph for limited, I have not achieved these speeds even under good, still & flat conditions.

I did go through the forum threads, but found none on this specific subject.

So as not to bias any response, I won't state my top speed yet, but my setup is as follows:

Original Kenda tyres, good pressure level ~50-60 PSI approx
Cateye Velo5 wheel size custom-set at 223cm
NiMH battery, new with several charge/discharge cycles ~40.7V fully charged.
Distance covered ~60 miles+
Unloaded (free-spinning) motor speed is about 26.7mph (full charge) - 25mph(low charge) & ~ 17.8mph (limited, full charge) if I recall correctly.

I want to reassure myself that my motor is performing comparatively normally; that's the reason for this request for information.

If you can state your top speed under motor power only, on a flat road with no significant wind if possible with say a fully or almost fully charged battery, and in temperatures like currently - around 15-20C, say, then that would be great, thanks! .

Although I think weight/size are factors, I don't think it makes much difference on the flat, but feel free to state your weight/height if you wish, & if it seems to be relevant I'll add my stats too .

Thanks,

Stuart.

I propose to treat this as scientifically as possible.
I will do mean speed tests in both directions (this will obviate waiting for a dead calm day - which is a rarity in March).
I was puzzled by temperatures currently 15-20C. You Mancunians are really lucky!!
I'll have to pump me tyres up and fully charge the batteries: check the calibration of the Velo 5 computer (I'd better not lose my recorded data), weigh meself and check me height.
Check the voltage output of the battery when charged.
Joking apart - I'd be pleased to do this but not tomorrow - on the next dry day.
Peter

 

[coops]

Thanks Flecc & Pete,

Bigger difference than I expected between NiMH & Li, and yes I'm glad you mentioned it can be difficult to find private offroad facilities for running derestricted, though even my top speed with limiter on seems rather below 15mph...

I get what you say about the difficulty of measuring the top speed accurately for many reasons - I've even wondered about whether the cateye is giving correct readings - I haven't made an exact distance route to calibrate on, but I may do that too. Maybe I've not tested in the most favourable conditions too, but they seemed quite fair, but I've not had the bike for long so it may be too early to tell....

Added to all that, you all seem to be very lightweight compared to me! My first instinct was to put it down to weight, but I don't think it can be: I rode wearing a 13kg backpack today as a test & it made little/no difference to the speed... but then maybe my weight already puts the Torq into enough difficulty!

Still, you all seem to get similar results, so mine look a bit suspect:

I often got 14.4mph motor-only when limited, and delimited I've found around 19.4mph is top speed, both ways on a local flat road in still-ish conditions...

So does that seem slow to you, or might it just be that conditions have not been quite good enough? How often do you get 22mph? Today for instance was quite mild & little wind, but I got no more than 19mph-ish on average?

I'm aware frame size & wind resistance etc. will make a difference at those sorts of speeds, but that much?

I'll see if my sister wants to try it out, see if it goes faster for her .

P.S. Pete - thanks, no need to be too scientific just an average top speed is fine.

P.P.S. I've found that a single long press on the cateye "mode" button (not "set") while its showing "max speed" or "dist" (not "odo") resets the max speed & dist info, but leaves the "odo" total unchanged.

I usually reset like this on each recharge, so I can tell how far I've gone since last charge &, knowing roughly the range per charge for me, how much range remains.

P.P.P.S I think my thermometer is round the bend - must be all the rain we're not getting here in Manchester at the mo .

Stuart.

 

[Django]

Torq as standard, full two month old Li battery, flat, no wind, decent road surface, 89 kilo rider (me), 21.4mph one way, 22.1mph the other.

Hope that helps,

Django

 

[flecc]

My results noted from earlier times Stuart, none are in current conditions, cold weather in particular affecting battery performance to some extent of course.

I think there is tolerance in the controller cut-out settings, and it may be that you're lucky to have one a touch low. Why? Well my bikes are I think both on the high side and I've experienced li-ion battery cut-outs in high load situations, but I'll bet you haven't. Given the choice of suffering the inconvenience of cutouts on long or difficult hills or losing half a mile an hour or so, I think the latter is better.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Top Motor Only Speeds

This are the pedantic details that I promised:

TORQ TEST:

Rider Weight 92.7 kgs
Height 6 ft 3 ins
Health (Scale 1:10) 1
Fitness (Scale 1:10) 1

Bike Type Torq
Weight 24.4 kgs
Wheels Nominal size 700c

Tyres Type Kanda 47/622
Pressure 45 p.s.i.
Size - Nominal 700 x 45
Size - Measured 28.5 inches

Battery Type Lithium Ion
Miles 341.6
Charge State Full
Output Charged 42 volts

Computer Velo 5 Setting 224

Weather Temperature º Celcius 13.6
Humidity 58%
Wind Speed 0 – 2 mph
Direction n/a

Test Results Speed - Unloaded Restricted 19.8 mph
Derestricted 27.3 mph
Speed - Loaded - Out Restricted 15.2 mph
- Back Restricted 16.1 mph
- Mean Restricted 15.65 mph
- Out Derestricted 20.2 mph
- Back Derestricted 21.4 mph
- Mean Derestricted 20.8 mph

Thank you Microsoft - that was a nicely organised table when I copied it.
Hope this is useful to you
Peter

 

[coops]

Thanks for all the info guys, thats very helpful.

Although I'm still a little bemused by my results, there does seem to be some variation & as yet I can't tell if its due to battery, controller, conditions, calibration, weight or a combination plus some other...

Django & Pete got slightly different results, both with Li-ion & both similar weights, but only a small difference & could still be due to any of those aforementioned factors...

But Pete's scientific results are closer to mine than any other, so could be as you say flecc, plus my battery I think may not be totally run-in...

Do you think weight could be a factor, given the sensitivity of the high motor gearing on the Torq? Mine is several kilos above Pete & Django, so could that really cause speed retardation?

Just to confuse things, I found today that the voltage goes from 42.4V down to 36.4V (full-empty), similarly unloaded motor speed is now 27.6 - 24ish mph, and I got around 20mph or so one way & 21mph the other, though that latter may have been a downhill bit.

So probably as you say flecc, the controller &/or weight, except is that useful to me - I'm on NiMH now (risk averse & pocket friendly!) & no major gradients at the mo, I suppose if I have to change to Li in future, and go somewhere hillier, it may be?!

In the light of those voltages & speeds, do you think that's a fair assessment?

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I think that's a fair assessment Stuart, and that voltage drop you mentioned is perfectly normal. It's the biggest snag with all newer battery types since lead acid on battery powered vehicles, the size of the variation meaning a decling performance on ever longer trip.

Weight shouldn't make any appreciable difference to speed, only it's effect on tyre drag for a given pressure being material to this. The tolerances in controllers are probably the main factor in slight variations in performance.

On the Li-ion worries, very few parts of the country have the conditions that might cause a problem, and for the vast majority of users, there's no problem at all, just the positive aspects of the bit of extra performance and the conveniences of charging at any time and no loss of charge while standing, no matter how long.
.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

By coops
I'm guessing most of you use Li, but if you could specify that would be good.
Hi all i also have Li on battery on my torq i also notice that once speed is over 15mph that wind resistance seems to be worse i wonder if there are any other ways to gain a bit more speed other then strong legs and going on a diet i weigh 14 stone DRAT

 

[coops]

Only 14 stone Nigel, you're lucky believe me!

I forgot to add, the speeds & voltages given in my last post were hot off the charger as it were: voltage drops from 42.4V hot off boost charge to 40.7 after few hrs unused.

Flecc, thanks for all the info, and maybe I'm being a bit dense, but given the battery voltage is ok, and the unloaded speed is similar, then how does the controller cut-off affect the top speed? by "cut-off" do you mean the current limit or the low-voltage cut-off? If so, isn't the speed limit a different matter? I thought that at max speed on flat the motor is lower power, so less chance of cut-off? Or is it that the voltage range permitted by my controller maybe shifted down compared to some, so limiting the top speed but allowing a bigger voltage drop in high drain use e.g. hills? If so, then maybe the controllers have been changed for lithium, or for better hill-handling etc.? (Except I asked for NiMH with mine!)

You're right, I've not had a cutout on a hill, but my hills are only slopes & not very high at that! Plus I'm using NiMH, so less likely to occur anyway...

Are there any other potential advantages you can think of if it is a low controller setting, since I've not noticed any range benefit and my speed seems lower, I'm aware speed isn't everything & 20mph is enough, but at the same time I'm not in need of the other "benefits" as I don't currently use Li-ion, and feel I'm missing out a bit performance-wise (doubly so - lower powered battery & lower set controller?) I'd rather just have the speed .

P.S. I may talk to 50cycles about this, to try to confirm whats going on (thanks for the reassurance its not weight by the way!) - though I don't see I have much recourse given the delimited speed, since its not "really" meant to be used that way (from the manual), I've found them to be very helpful & understanding, and if it doesn't reach the 15mph limit that may be another matter, or then again not?? It doesn't say anywhere that an electric will or must reach 15mph, does it? Except it is supposed to, with a degree of tolerance as you say, but I'd rather it was tolerance on the high side, not the low side .

P.P.S Sorry for all the waffle, but, unless you've specified, are all the speeds you've all kindly posted on a battery "hot off the charger", or charged hours/days before (though there's less self-discharge with Li vs NiMH, yes? so less of an issue if you're on Li) or part discharged i.e. after some use?

For how long would you expect to get those sorts of speeds on a single charge and what sort of top speed do you get at near full discharge i.e. the "range" of top speed as the battery goes from full to empty?

Thanks again for your help
Stuart.

 

[flecc]

No, the cutoff I referred to is only the low voltage safety cutoff at around 32 volts under load. This won't affect NiMh until the battery has operationally discharged fully. Under very extreme load conditions a Li-ion can drop voltage to cutoff point before being fully discharged. Neither condition affects performance in any way.

(Additional paragraph of info only if wanted: Then if rested it regains most of the remaining charge and can carry on, the longer the rest, the more the gain, but a proportion of the remaining charge is lost then. That proportion depends on how far the battery was discharged at the point where cut off occurs. Two of us have independently verified this on two different age Torqs.)

The only "hot off the charger" speeds were where I've stated that, all the others from earlier charging. However, one, I use my bikes very regularly so none has been after long standing, and two, Li-ion don't lose charge over time as NiMh do, about 1% per day with those.

On the decline in performance as the charge declines, I've never looked at that with the Torq as the rider component distorts. I find there's an automatic tendency to make up for deficits to meet expectations, that dratted psychological factor again! Instead the Quando with the identical power chain gives a far better indication since it's single gear doesn't allow pedalling to keep up with performance, so the results are all due to the bike as follows.

In still air and on a fully charged NiMh battery from earlier charging, my first stretch, nominally flat but slightly negative, is at 18.3 mph typically. Hot off the charger I actually once saw 19.1 mph, remarkable for this motor geared 40% lower than the Torq, showing the benefit of not over gearing. After nearly four miles of usage, representing 25% of the charge, the speed on the same stretch is typically 17.2 mph. That will give you the percentage drop in speed performance, but I'd expect that to be a bit greater for the Torq due to the much higher motor gearing.

At near full discharge I'm running in the other direction heading for home (!), but judged from the speed at that point, the other direction speed would be just about reach 16 mph, so about 16% down from the peak possible with a battery just off the charger.

Li-ion would give you about 3/4% gain in overall speed on the flat at most discharge conditions, unless it had just been chemically tired by some extreme loading as in very long and/or exceptionally steep hill climbing. Then it can temporarily give lower speed.
.

 

[coops]

Thanks for the further information Flecc,

I feel somewhat reassured that my battery is performing ok: I'd started to think I should have gone for Li-ion, but I think the NiMH is fine.

I got a bit thrown by your reference to the controller cut-out: I couldn't see how that related to the top speed, and to be honest I still don't see the connection, I'm sorry! Perhaps you could enlighten me?

The tolerances in controllers are probably the main factor in slight variations in performance.

To clarify, do you think that it's most likely just this then that results in my Torq going somewhat slower than some others?

I have found that if I "boost" the charge (needed for NiMH?) just before going out my speeds are only slightly less than Pete's Li-ions to begin with though, say 20ish mph falling quickly to 19ish then ending at 18ish, but those speeds are somewhat lower than some others are quoting... it seems slightly disappointing that my maximum speed is possibly lower than other's minimum speed (assuming theirs drop from 22/23 to around 20mph)?

Limited, I do get 15mph+ very briefly, but very quickly dropping below to around 14.4mph.

As you say, most will not notice the drop in performance over the miles, I suppose I've only done so due to awareness that my initial speed seemed a bit low...

And what will happen as my battery ages, will the speed likely decline further or just the capacity & range be affected do you think?

It may not seem much, 2mph or so, but sometimes it's enough to decide if you get through those next traffic lights before they change, or not!!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

My reference to controller variations wasn't to do with the cut off Stuart, just the possibility of slight differences in pulse timing, current flow etc, though these would be very small.

I don't think you have a problem at all and it's probably a case of variation in different individual settings. I hope Peter won't mind me observing that the wheel size he's given is almost certainly too big, and it may therefore be that his speedo is set high. He has given the diameter as 28.5", but my identical type of Kenda tyre isn't that size. It's circumference is 2231 mm, therefore a diameter of 710.5 mm which is 27.97". That means Peter's readings if his speedo is set to that 28.5" are 1.85% high.

Similarly, much depends on the accuracy of others speedo settings and whether they set the speedo at all, many don't, using as received. Tyre wear comes into it as well, since as the tread wears down the speedo should really be reset for absolute accuracy to be achieved.

The battery age doesn't change the voltage so your speeds won't decline, though the range will of course, though the decline is very slow with NiMh and you'll probably barely notice it happening.
.

 

[coops]

Thanks for your reply & for clearing that up Flecc

So possibly much ado about nothing then, you think?

I'd thought the speedo could be possibly not giving an accurate measure of speed, mine or others', depending on its settings. So I'd previously roughly worked out my wheel size as 223cm and set it, which seems accurate from your sums, and I think Pete said he'd set his as 224cm, so a difference but very small (< 0.5%). Is your Torq velo5 wheel size set to 223cm too then?

As received, mine was set to 700c if I recall, so for those who have not reset their speedos their top speeds are most likely underestimated since 700c is less than 223cm, hence less distance measured per rev? Unloaded limited wheelspin reads 19.6, 19.0 & 18.8mph for 223cm, 27" & 700c respectively, on a fresh charge.

I agree the variation between controllers should be small, so wouldn't explain around 7-9% difference between our Torqs on NiMH (your 22mph to my 20ish mph) - except I guess the temperature may be a factor there, given what you said about your results being noted from earlier (milder?) times!, still seems something of a discrepancy though, since I don't think that would account for ~2mph, would it?

Oh well, I suppose I wouldn't even be thinking about this if it wasn't for the velo5 & posts from others of their speeds... so maybe I'll just get on with doing some mods to assist use & be done with it .

Thanks again to all,

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes, mine's set to 223 cm Stuart, and all my readings were from very warm Summer temperatures (July to September) when battery performance is at the optimum. Winter is the worst time to do speed checks on any battery vehicle, since all battery types lose performance as temperature drops, with severe effects at zero degrees.

Another thing to bear in mind is that my batteries are charged and stored indoors in the warm, so when I set off and do a check, the battery is at the optimum all year round.

I'm sure that you have nothing to worry about, since we've accounted for several factors that might be coming into play. Here's one more for good measure:

Two riders on identical bikes and batteries, except for the tyre pressures being appropriate for their weight, set off side by side on the same journey and stay in that side by side formation. One rider is 12 stones, the other 18 stones. At the end of the trip and still side by side, the lighter rider will have travelled further, and therefore must have travelled a little faster. The reason is the slippage that occurs between a driven wheel and the road surface, which will be greater for the lighter rider.
.