Upgrading a Lafree Twist

I own a Giant Lafree Twist with the 3 speed Shimano hub gear & I am thinking of having a new wheel built with the 8 speed Shimano hub gear fitted.

1. Has anyone out there done that: is it straightforward, if not what are the snags?

2. The Lafree has a single leg "kickstand" on the left & would like to fit a double one, can this be done & if it can which make would you recommend?

Derrick - Llanberis

I changed mine from the Nexus 3 speed to the SRAM 5 speed hub Derrick.

I'm not sure of the exact cable arrangements on the 8 speed, but it's easiest if you can use the existing outer cable, threading through the inner that comes with the new control. Otherwise it means stripping the cowlings off to route the cable through. It's certainly practical to change though. Here's the link on my site on fitting the SRAM hub, which gives bits of information you might find suitable for the other hub.

SRAM Fitting

The stand that suits the Lafree Twist best is the Esge model from Pletscher, and A to B magazine fitted that to their Lafree. It's difficult to get hold of, but St John Cycles stock it. You'll see this stand on my Q bike, both folded up with both legs to the left, and erected, if you use this link and scroll well down.

It comes in two leg lengths, and you need the one for 27" wheels since the frame twin tubes on the Twist are higher up than standard. Here's the webpage with the right one:

St Johns Cycles

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Edited September 14, 200718 yr by flecc

What do you think of the The SRAM Dual Drive for the twist?

Someone suggested that to me.

It's apparently very good prState. William Morrison of Los Angeles has fitted one to his Giant Lite (Twist), which also has the extension Xtracycle frame. William tells me he's delighted with the DualDrive and the high speeds he can now achieve on his daily commute.

Here's a photo of William's bike just before he fitted the DualDrive.

Xtracycle Commuter

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Edited September 14, 200718 yr by flecc

I would be very interested in having this done to my bike (I have been waiting for the no longer stocked 16T sprocket from Fisher for a long time now).

Do you think its something a standard bike shop could do for me?

John

The 16 tooth x 1/8" sprocket is stocked by St Johns Cycles, John, and you can see it on this link.

As for the conversion, do you mean the DualDrive or a different hub gear?

Any competent dealer can do a hub gear conversion, though given the motor cowlings on the Twist series, one of Giant's listed "electric" dealers would be the best bet.

The same applies to the Dual Drive, but since that adds the extra dimension of a gear hanger to convert the frame for the derailleur part, some dealers might start raising objections. They're a conservative lot in the cycle trade! The Shimano conversion gear hanger can be very difficult to get hold of, but once again the excellent St Johns Cycles stock them.

However, it is possible to have the DualDrive, but some precautions are necessary, since the rather soft frame drop-out area of the Giant alloy frame needs careful treatment if it's not to stretch out of shape. If you find a dealer prepared to do it, I can give the odd tip to avoid that trouble which might be appreciated.

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Thanks Flecc

It does sound a bit troublesome to fit that dual drive. And to my knowledge there is no Giant electric dealer within 20 miles.

I would like something that give me a higher potential top speed as I am doing my 10.3 mile commute now in 41 to 43 mins and I just cant get any more out of that gearing. I seem to be permanently at 16.4 mph on the flat.

What would you recommend as a change that could be done by a normal average bike shop to push up that top end, anything?

John

PS - St Johns have previously told me that they do not stock any offset sprocket less than 17T

Edited September 15, 200718 yr by JohnInStockie

I think a 16 tooth without offset will run ok on the SRAM P5 hub John, though I'm not certain. A 14 tooth definitely won't.

There's nothing else you can do on the Twist/Comfort, since the cowlings prevent chainwheel change, though an SRAM 7 speed will give a higher gear.

With that your 16.4 mph would become 18.1 mph, all other things being equal.

A much cheaper option, costing nothing in fact, is to practice higher pedalling cadences. On the same setup as yours, SRAM P5 and 17 tooth sprocket on my Twist with the same MP tyre, I comfortable pedal at 18 mph for very long periods, and up to 20 mph for several minutes. On down slope bursts of a few hundred yards, I spin it up to 26 mph and have touched 27 once.

So you can see that there's a huge margin for gain with that method, and it's much better for the long term well being of your knees. Even if you split the difference and only go half of the way, you'll easily get up to 18/19 mph.

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Dropouts on the Lafree Twist

Can anyone tell me the angle of the dropouts on rear of the Lafree Twist?

Derrick - Llanberis

Odd question Derrick? However, you can judge from this photo of the dropout area on the Comfort owned by David Henshaw, A to B editor. (The spindle securing plate in the photo is to overcome the widening of the soft dropout due to the spindle spinning previously).

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/flecc/images/Dropout%20Repair.jpg

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A much cheaper option, costing nothing in fact, is to practice higher pedalling cadences. On the same setup as yours, SRAM P5 and 17 tooth sprocket on my Twist with the same MP tyre, I comfortable pedal at 18 mph for very long periods, and up to 20 mph for several minutes. On down slope bursts of a few hundred yards, I spin it up to 26 mph and have touched 27 once.

 

So you can see that there's a huge margin for gain with that method, and it's much better for the long term well being of your knees. Even if you split the difference and only go half of the way, you'll easily get up to 18/19 mph.

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I have tried to increase my cadence but find it very uncomfortable. Not sure why, but I think I am between 80 - 90.

Unfortunately I have started getting some discomfort from my right knee - dont know if its down to the cycling but I am suspious. Could it be due to my standing up while pedaling uphill in top gear??

John

Not such an odd question

Nexus 8 Fitting Kit

The fitting kit includes CJ-8S20, and right and left nuts, anti-turn washers, snap ring and drive cap. You have to specify fittings for;

Horizontal and 20” dropouts (SM8R20H)

20” and 38 degree dropouts (SM8R20)

Vertical dropouts (SM8R20V)

This is why I wanted to know.

Derrick - Llanberis

Nexus 8 Fitting Kit

The fitting kit includes CJ-8S20, and right and left nuts, anti-turn washers, snap ring and drive cap. You have to specify fittings for;

Horizontal and 20” dropouts (SM8R20H)

20” and 38 degree dropouts (SM8R20)

Vertical dropouts (SM8R20V)

 

This is why I wanted to know.

 

Derrick - Llanberis

Understood Derrick, thanks.

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Esge propstand

The one thing I doubt about this propstand is that it can be used i.e. parking the bike, whichever side of the bike you are on?

On my present Lafree you must be on the left to use it.

Derrick - Llanberis

That's right Derrick, it's only suitable for left side operation, the penalty for having no chain line interference problems.

I don't know of a twin leg rigid that's been fitted on a Twist, though I'm quite sure many would be ok with the hub gear high chainline unlikely to interfere. The main thing to watch out for is the need for slightly longer leg length than normal on a 26" wheel bike, a consequence of not having a normal bottom bracket and the rear frame tubes being a bit higher than usual.

What makes the Esge especially suitable is the longer leg length option, and the fact that the legs are marked at 10 mm intervals for accurate trimming to the exact size needed, a thoughtful touch.

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I have tried to increase my cadence but find it very uncomfortable. Not sure why, but I think I am between 80 - 90.

 

Unfortunately I have started getting some discomfort from my right knee - dont know if its down to the cycling but I am suspious. Could it be due to my standing up while pedaling uphill in top gear??

 

John

Yes, that's extremely likely John, and it's how most cyclists knee troubles start. Using top gear uphill and compensating by standing on the pedals to use body weight and muscle strength together puts a huge pressure on the knee joint.

Best to change down and spread the load across more pedal strokes. That said, it's unfortunate that your Lafree Comfort doesn't allow high cadences and maximum assistance, but it shouldn't be necessary to use top gear for climbing. The answer is still to use as low a cadence as bike demands, but in a much lower gear and climbing more slowly, since slower climb speed radically reduces the power required. Since the Panasonic motor contribution at a given cadence remains the same, the contribution required from you will drop substantially, reducing the pressure on your knee joints.

Your cadence isn't remotely close to the 80 - 90 you mention. At the 16.4 mph in top gear that you mentioned before as the maximum when you feel that your spinning as fast as you can, the cadence on your bike in top gear is 62.3. At a cadence of 80 in top gear, you would be doing 21.11 mph, at a cadence of 90, 23.76 mph.

If you climb at 10.5 mph in top gear, your cadence is only 40, very low, and likely to cause knee trouble. Using the same cadence in 4th gear would ease the strain and reduce the speed to 8.5 mph, or in third gear with a big reduction in strain, 6.7 mph.

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Edited September 16, 200718 yr by flecc

Thanks for that Flecc, lets hope I've caught it before (too much) damage has been done. I tried this morning to increase my cadence, found myself sweating profusely (which isnt a bad thing totally as weight loss is one of my goals). I didnt get any symptoms today, but its only Monday.

Its not easy to get to the higher cadences, it felt as though I was really straining and pushing to keep the speed up, but then that could be down to wind drag (felt a bit if a head on breeze this morning). Hopefully it will get easier with practice.

John

It does John, the more you do it, the easier it gets. It's small children with their shorter legs who naturally spin very fast on their small, low geared bikes, but most people returning to cycling in adulthood feel happier with slower cadences in keeping with their slower adult leg actions in other functions like walking. So training is necessary to naturally adopt the faster cadence.

However, don't try everything at once and over stress yourself, too much too suddenly can cause other, more abrupt health problems. Combine some increase in cadence with a drop in gear and speed on hills at first. That achieves the same knee pressure reduction while you gradually train your body into higher cadences. If you find a combination that allows a climb without getting out of the saddle, that will tend to keep the pressures low enough to avoid damage.

If it's still stressful and causing profuse sweating after moderate trying for a while, best to have a checkup with your doctor to get further advice on how to proceed.

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Edited September 17, 200718 yr by flecc

John

In addition to Flecc's advice.

I have knee problems. I believe they are as a result of cycling. I used to cycle with a really low cadence, always pushing against the pedals. I also had a bike for a long time that was equipped with Shimano Biopace chainrings, which some people have suggested are bad for one's knees. Additionally, I have always used clips or cleats. There is some evidence to suggest that these may be harmful as they do not allow the knee to move freely.

I am sure that if you persevere with the higher cadence you will enjoy your cycling more and protect your knees in the longer term.

Steve

Thanks for the good advice guys. I too have moved onto the mini clips as well thinking that they would give me better 'posture'. Do you think that these are a contributor, or is it just the low cadence?

John

The low cadence is the major thing John, but as Steve has said, anything that can impede the natural settling of the knee into it's most comfortable position is to be avoided.

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Second thoughts

The one thing that makes me nervous about spending money on my Lafree Twist viz. the Shimano 8 speed hub gear, which would (guess) cost me about £200 including a new wheel, is if the main circuit board packed up, or parts that can only be obtained from Giant, the cost of these parts, or whether they can be got anymore!

I would hate to spend this amount of money only to find it completely wasted.

Perhaps it would be better to put it towards a new bike, where spares are readily available & cheaper than Giants outrageous prices. But I do like my present bike!

Derrick - Llanberis

Edited September 20, 200718 yr by derrick7

No motor unit spares are available from Giant UK any more Derrick. Until recently they had some of the 14 tooth motor sprockets, once about £6, and at £30 lately, but recently they've said no more. Batteries are £250 (6.5 Ah). The 14 tooth sprockets are still available in mainland Europe at 81 euros (over £56), a staggering price.

The circuit board has never been available, simply because it's encapsulated and sealed into the RH alloy side casing with silicone rubber, and Panasonic have never made other parts available as far as can be seen.

The only answers to most failed parts are scavenging from another Twist, or buying a complete replacement unit at £450 plus fitting.

For that reason I've been warning for some while that second hand Lafree twist series bikes are a risky buy. There's further details on the repairs pages of my site.

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Edited September 20, 200718 yr by flecc

The only answers to most failed parts are scavenging from another Twist, or buying a complete replacement unit at £450 plus fitting.

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Can something like the 14 tooth motor sprocket be custom made by a laser lathe? I would have to contact a third party, but I've seen ads for custom work if you send details of what you need. I'm sure it's probably not cheap though.

I seem to remember when Schwinn, manufactured their bolts and stuff with unique thread patterns. You couldnt just pick up a replacement anywhere -- very aggravating. Of course, i guess they were trying to lock in customers at the time.

Also, have any guess how long the original sproket should last on average?

It would be very difficult prState, due to the quite small shaft diameter it sits on and it's internal splines. The outer part of the sprocket would be easier. The lowest cost way would be to have the centre splined area cut out and the outer of any 14 tooth sprocket welded on. A laser lathe could easily do that cutting of course.

The sprocket is the fastest wearing part of the unit, but it's life depends on how well the chain is lubricated. The teeth reach the end of life at anything from 3000 to 6000 miles usually, and the chain starts jumping then.

A temporary fix that can last a very long time is to remove it's securing circlip and turn the sprocket round to use the reverse of the tooth faces. Doing that makes it impossible to replace the circlip, but the sprocket is kept on by the chain coming straight off the secure chainwheel position.

Thanks to Senior Member Leonardo's invaluable help in using his much greater language skills on my behalf, we've been scouring Europe for spares and can get the sprockets at the moment, but at that hefty price reported above. However, any repair method would probably be at least as expensive.

Unfortunately Panasonic's latest unit appears to use much smaller sprockets of between 8, 9 or 11 teeth, depending on the bike wheel size of course.

I'll be updating the Repairs section of my site shortly with the latest information and will add to that from time to time as any changes occur.

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Edited September 21, 200718 yr by flecc