When 15 mph isn't enough

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,842
30,399
my machine is designed for PERSONNEL transport, which like you say is a world of difference.
That I'd already accepted for your bike, it's not in question.

I can't say I'm entirely content with the Heinzmann motor though. Again there's no problem on the build quality, but having seen brushes give out at two years of personal use, I'd prefer a technically more up to date design, a Hall effect motor with the German build quality which would have less maintenance requirements, better economy, and could have a more useful flatter torque curve for the commercial load application.

It's just sad that such a thing doesn't exist yet.

And batteries are not really there yet with the features needed for bike use.
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I can't say I'm entirely content with the Heinzmann motor though. Again there's no problem on the build quality, but having seen brushes give out at two years of personal use, I'd prefer a technically more up to date design, a Hall effect motor with the German build quality which would have less maintenance requirements, better economy, and could have a more useful flatter torque curve for the commercial load application.

It's just sad that such a thing doesn't exist yet.
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...Exactly, which is why we have to go with the best of what does exist now.

With the current E-bike technology, we couldn't go with a 'hall effect' motor even if we wanted to, simply because of the type of work that a 'heavy utility and commercial use' E-bike in a majority of cases, would be required to do. That is, lots of slow speed work that would necessitate the use of a throttle control for smooth progressive power delivery.
As far as I am aware, the control units on the current crop of 'hall effect motored bikes', are not sophisticated enough to do this. Instead, the throttle on these machines, simply acts like a giant 'On and Off' switch - wherein you just get a surge of power with no reasonable way of regulating what you get.
Further more, as far as I am aware, there isn't a 'hall effect' motor yet that can match the torque you can get out of a brush motor - the version we are currently using, has 58Nm for 200watts, ( it's the same motor as used on the Deutsch post mail bikes ).

In addition to all this, the Heinzmann design may be old but it is proven, tested and very reliable. The simpler design making for easier and quicker diagnosis and fixing of problems should they occur, keeping 'down-time' for a working machine to a minimum. Of equal importance, is the easy predictability of when/if things are likely to go wrong with it, due to a long and well documented history of use.

Also, the way in which the Heinzmann controller (Ebike and pedelec versions) operates, is ideal for workbike usage. For example, it has a 2 second ramp up ( delay) and instantaneous ramp down, many others don't. The pedelec version has a 'start/walk assist' function, wherein the motor will power the bike up to 4mph, after that, YOU pedal - this being ideal if you have to dismount and walk a heavily loaded bike through a pedestrianised area or up a hill.

The MonVal Electra, although a new design, is powered by a proven and tested technology, simply because 'questionable reliability', is not an option.

... Back to the 'original posters' statement - 'when 15mph is not enough.' In the case of electric bikes especially workbikes, or rather Commercial use E-bikes like mine, IMHO it most definately is!!
... WHY? ... because although the E-bicycle has advanced, the braking technology hasn't and generally speaking, as most E-bikes are alot heavier than unpowered ones, they need a lot more force to slow them down. And one of the things that I have noticed that is regularly complained about on this forum, regardless of manufacturer, is the poor braking of many of these machines.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,842
30,399
As far as I am aware, the control units on the current crop of 'hall effect motored bikes', are not sophisticated enough to do this. Instead, the throttle on these machines, simply acts like a giant 'On and Off' switch - wherein you just get a surge of power with no reasonable way of regulating what you get.

Further more, as far as I am aware, there isn't a 'hall effect' motor yet that can match the torque you can get out of a brush motor - the version we are currently using, has 58Nm for 200watts, ( it's the same motor as used on the Deutsch post mail bikes ).
That's right, but simply due to using Hall throttles rather than the controllers not being capable. With the magnetic field strength being very non-linear an even response is near to impossible at the throttle sensor. Better throttles are easily possible but the cheaper option has won the day for the present.

Getting more torque from a Hall design is again possible, but until someone in Europe puts some money into motor design to enable what's wanted combined with quality, we only have the current Heinzmann for the purpose.
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Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
With the current E-bike technology, we couldn't go with a 'hall effect' motor even if we wanted to, simply because of the type of work that a 'heavy utility and commercial use' E-bike in a majority of cases, would be required to do. That is, lots of slow speed work that would necessitate the use of a throttle control for smooth progressive power delivery.
As far as I am aware, the control units on the current crop of 'hall effect motored bikes', are not sophisticated enough to do this. Instead, the throttle on these machines, simply acts like a giant 'On and Off' switch - wherein you just get a surge of power with no reasonable way of regulating what you get.
Further more, as far as I am aware, there isn't a 'hall effect' motor yet that can match the torque you can get out of a brush motor - the version we are currently using, has 58Nm for 200watts, ( it's the same motor as used on the Deutsch post mail bikes ).
Andrew,

That doesn't sound right. That sounds like an argument about sensorless controllers rather than about brushed versus brushless (Hall sensored) motors.

Also, whether a motor uses Hall sensors or not has nothing to do with the torque.

Nick
 

rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
That's right, but simply due to using Hall throttles rather than the controllers not being capable. With the magnetic field strength being very non-linear an even response is near to impossible at the throttle sensor. Better throttles are easily possible but the cheaper option has won the day for the present.

Getting more torque from a Hall design is again possible, but until someone in Europe puts some money into motor design to enable what's wanted combined with quality, we only have the current Heinzmann for the purpose.
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Erm - I don't think that's quite right, at least not in all cases. The throttle on the (current) Wisper 905s certainly gives smooth progressive power delivery, and is in no way an 'on/off' switch, though it doesn't start to deliver that power until well off its stop - though I personally don't find that a disadvantage. You can certainly get as little or as much as you need.

Rog.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,842
30,399
Erm - I don't think that's quite right, at least not in all cases. The throttle on the (current) Wisper 905s certainly gives smooth progressive power delivery

Rog.
As I said Rog, it is possible, though easier achieved with a non-Hall solution. But believe me, very few are like that, most almost on/off over a very small part of the centre of the arc.
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Andrew,

That doesn't sound right. That sounds like an argument about sensorless controllers rather than about brushed versus brushless (Hall sensored) motors.

Also, whether a motor uses Hall sensors or not has nothing to do with the torque.

Nick
Hello Nick

No argument at all, I think there must be some misunderstanding here, as I simply stated a fact that, if you needed a motor and controller ' that is available in Europe, compliant with regs and off the shelf,' that will also deliver progressively smooth power from the start and has high torque, then from the current stuff available on the market today, your choices are very limited - This we know from great personal expense having purchased various combinations to find out which would work best for our purposes.

The following quote from resident guru Flecc holds very true:
but until someone in Europe puts some money into motor design to enable what's wanted combined with quality, we only have the current Heinzmann for the purpose.
To give you an example:

The panasonic unit on the Kalkhoff pedelec range of bikes, the 'current' controller will only allow assistance once YOU start pedalling. Now, great unit that this is, it is not much good on a stationary, loaded down work bike pointing up a hill! Or, if same loaded down work bike has to do a lot of stops and starts in city traffic conditions.
The 'current' Heinzmann pedelec controller already has a walk/start assistance built into it for this very purpose.

By the way, regarding motors using hall sensors and torque, I made no such link.
I merely stated that generally, the Hall effect motors available are not as powerful torque wise as the equivalent brush motors and again cited the Heinzmann that we are using as an example of this. I am more than happy to be made aware of a 'hall effect' motor that has an equivalent 58Nm or more of torque at 200watts that is also fully compliant with regs. :)
 

Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
2
Warlingham, Surrey
The panasonic unit on the Kalkhoff pedelec range of bikes, the 'current' controller will only allow assistance once YOU start pedalling.
That is not entirely correct - It provides assistance from the moment you start to put pressure on the pedals - You do not need to have rotated the pedals or got moving for the power to kick in. It is specifically very good for getting you moving from a standing start with a heavy load (in my case a 2-year old daugter and 2 panniers)
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,842
30,399
That is not entirely correct - It provides assistance from the moment you start to put pressure on the pedals - You do not need to have rotated the pedals or got moving for the power to kick in. It is specifically very good for getting you moving from a standing start with a heavy load (in my case a 2-year old daugter and 2 panniers)
True, and in fact it's power and torque available can be the maximum at that point, hence the capability for wheelies. That was one of it's best heavy load towing qualities as in this Lafree load:


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That is not entirely correct - It provides assistance from the moment you start to put pressure on the pedals - You do not need to have rotated the pedals or got moving for the power to kick in. It is specifically very good for getting you moving from a standing start with a heavy load (in my case a 2-year old daugter and 2 panniers)
Hello Fecn

I am well aware that the panasonic unit tries to work on a 50/50 basis especially at very low cadence.

... But, the point I am making, is that the Heinmann pedelec system will provide this assistance WITHOUT you even touching the pedals up to a max speed of 4mph. A facility, very much appreciated by German posties. :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,842
30,399
Hello Fecn

I am well aware that the panasonic unit tries to work on a 50/50 basis especially at very low cadence.

... But, the point I am making, is that the Heinmann pedelec system will provide this assistance WITHOUT you even touching the pedals up to a max speed of 4mph. A facility, very much appreciated by German posties. :)
So can the Panasonic unit. :)

Long ago BikeTech of Switzerland introduced a full power walk-alongside throttle modification on some of their Panasonic models which operates to 6kph/4 mph. This has now been adopted by Panasonic and will be available as an option on the Kalkhoff bikes. (That speed limit is of course that for pedestrian controlled electric vehicles.) That's not to say the Panasonic is more suitable for your purpose, it isn't of course for several reasons.

There's an amusing by product of the walk-alongside throttle on the Panasonic system. On the high speed "S" versions of bikes using it that throttle operates to 12 mph, very illegal, and more a run-alongside, possibly suited to Express deliveries. :D
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Perbear

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 15, 2009
6
0
Hello Fecn
... But, the point I am making, is that the Heinmann pedelec system will provide this assistance WITHOUT you even touching the pedals up to a max speed of 4mph.
This is acutally allowed by the new European standard for Pedelecs (EPAC) EN 15194:2009

In chapter 4.2.4.3 Start up assistance mode is defined and allowed:
EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed