Yes, however, the reviews I have read show that most of its power still lies in the lower rpm range, and the assist level at high rpm is not that impressive. So maybe they pushed the limit a bit, but it still seems that the torque drops significantly past 90 rpm.
Which crank motor to choose? And is Active Plus better than STEPS E6000?
- Thread starter TomNO
- Start date
I'm not really worried about the range that much. It's interesting that Cube has put the Active Plus on a MTB bike, so initially I thought this motor can perform. Yesterday I went through some forums again, and saw a guy claim that the Active Plus climbs worse than E6000 (apparently he had tested both), which is so disappointing.
Nefarious, can you confirm that your E8000 cuts off sharply at exactly 25km/h mark? After looking at the eMTB units, it seems that E8000 might indeed the best choice for me, since it has a regular chainring, lots of torque, lighter and smaller than CX, user upgradable firmware, and I saw you can even tune the assist levels through E-Tube. But I read in several reviews that it cuts off the speed very suddenlty at 25km/h, when CX, for example, does it smoothly after 26km/h, and cuts off only at 27km/h. Is this how your unit operates as well? This hasn't been improved with firmware upgrades?
are you sure Skippy? I have the Bosch and I feel no resistance after the cut off point or with the unit switched off (unlike my Suntour Hesc which was a nightmare)
Mike
Hi Tom. I'd say that the cutoff only really feels sharp when you're in the 'wrong' gear. when I first got the bike I rode up a really steep hill in Boost mode in a very high gear. When I hit the cutoff, it felt like a lead weight. However, in a more sensible gear, I find the transition much more gentle. I think it's just a matter of learning how to get the best out of the mechanics. Frankly, if I can keep to 25kmh up steep hills then that's fast enough anyway. Hitting the cutoff on the flat or downhill is noticeable but not abrupt and it's very easy to power on to much higher speeds.
By the way, I haven't tried to play with adjusting the settings yet, though I have successfully updated the firmware and all is well! You can probably tell, but I'm really impressed with this bike/motor/etc so far!
My wifes 2018 Gazelle Ultimate T10 has the Bosch Performance Line (63Nm) and I have the Shimano E8000 (70Nm) on a 2018 Merida Espresso 600 EQ
Her motor is slightly quiter than mine but when I test rode a Trek Powerfly 5 with the Bosch CX (75Nm) is was more noisy than the E8000
The below link might be of interest, although it is not reviewing the Active Line Plus motor vrs the E6000. I agree finding a review of the Active Line Plus is difficult
http://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/e-mtb-mid-motor-shootout-bosch-performance-line-cx-vs-shimano-steps
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Thanks. I have seen this page, I probably have seen them all now, having been researching this now every evening for a week.
It's true that it's hard to find more info on the new Active Plus, but I'm leaning more towards E8000 now anyway. The only problem is that the E8000 is not nearly as common as the CX (here at least), so it's hard to find a bike with E8000 at a decent price. I actually searched for e-bikes with E8000 yesterday, and I found the Espresso Steps 600 EQ 2018, and thought it was a really nice bike. You usually see the E8000 only on MTBs, but the Espresso 600 EQ is an exception, and it just looks like a really nice bike. The problem is the price, it costs like 3200 EUR here. It's not the price itself that's the problem, I don't mind investing in a good bicycle I will use for years instead of my car, the problem is the difference in price between E8000 and CX. You can get a bike with CX for under 2000 EUR now, so spending over 1000EUR just for the E8000 seems foolish. :-(I looked at some local e-bike reviews, and there was the Cube Cross Hybrid Pro with CX which I considered, and it got one of the lowest scores in the test, it actually had the second worst score. The biggest minus for this bike was, according to the review, the loss of pedal force, which they measured (not sure exactly how) to 32%, which they meant made the bicycle hard to pedal without assist. I thought maybe that's specific to that particular bicycle, but this was the only bicycle with CX motor on that test (7 other bikes were tested), and it had the highest loss of pedal force in the whole test. The best in the whole test, and with least loss of pedal force, was the Haibike Sduro Trekking 6.0 with PW, it scored 21%. So I am leaning more and more towards the E8000, but, unfortunately, the E8000 is just not that common here. :-(
90 is good
And I also get the impression that many people think 60 is 'high' !! (in fact, even turning the pedals at all is considered a 'high cadence'
)Absolutely stay away from the Yam PW motor then. I have one in my family, and while its a great system otherwise, I'd say you only get decent power under 80rpm. I've ridden a PWX motor, but not in anger up long hills, so I'd be worried that the extended cadence range still might not be increased enough to provide adequate support around 110rpm (even if the charts show power up to 120rpm). I'd categorically HAVE to test drive one properly before buying if high cadence is a priority.
Safe bet is the good old Bosch CX.
Although as a wild card, if you are more of a 'normal' enthusiast cyclist and want to ride in as natural and unimpeded way as possible (cadence wise), just with some assist, then I find a torque sensor hub drive gives a much more natural feel (as well as DD versions being virtually silent with the lowest maintenance). I'd see if you could test drive an s-pedelec Stromer just to see how you like that kind of system (even if you decide the price is way too high!!). I bet if you tried one you'd want one!
Thanks. Yeah, I am not considering Yamaha at all now.
S-pedelecs in this country are considered electrical mopeds, and therefore are not allowed on the sidewalks, cycling paths etc. You also have to have them insured etc. So it's out of the question.
I am not sure if Stromer also make regular pedelecs, but at least here, the only Stromer e-bikes I have seen/can find in stores have been s-pedelecs. Also, most of the e-bikes with hub drives I have seen here are either cheap/bad quality bikes, or illegal/overpowered (or both). I haven't looked into hub drives that much, and don't know if there are high quality hub drives out there that can compete with a good mid drive (and be legal 250W/25km/h), but you have to understand that this is a small country with very limited choice in products. Thanks. Sure, I wouldn't mind keeping stable 25km/h up steep hills as well
I have some long hills which I can't manage to climb at over 20km/h with the old E6000, hopefully with a more powerful unit like the E8000 I could keep steady 25km/h. But it would be really nice if it actually went up to 27km/h (which apparently Bosch does, and is within the legal +/-10% range). I saw that you can "hack" the cutoff speed on E8000 by using software called eMax, so you don't have to use any hardware at all, but you can't use the latest firmware on the bike then. It would be nice to raise the cutoff limit by a few km/h, but the software costs 150 EUR...But I really like the idea of being able to connect to the unit using bluetooth to upgrade firmware on all components, to adjust the assist levels etc. It sounds like a great feature to have.
Yes, it is a really nice feature. I get the feeling that Shimano are always improving their product and, being able to update it easily yourself, you get free and easy access to that development. I strongly suspect that if Bosch are exploiting a little wiggle-room re maximum assisted speeds that Shimano will not stand idly by!Thanks. Sure, I wouldn't mind keeping stable 25km/h up steep hills as well
But I really like the idea of being able to connect to the unit using bluetooth to upgrade firmware on all components, to adjust the assist levels etc. It sounds like a great feature to have.
Tom, if you're keen on the E8000, have you looked at the entry-level Focus Bold2? The LTD version starts at £2k so must be less than the prices you're quoting. While I went for a slightly higher spec, they all have the same frame, motor, etc and I'm hugely impressed with it so far. You can get 29" wheels on that too, which help the compromise between on and off-roadThanks. I have seen this page, I probably have seen them all now, having been researching this now every evening for a week.
I looked at some local e-bike reviews, and there was the Cube Cross Hybrid Pro with CX which I considered, and it got one of the lowest scores in the test, it actually had the second worst score. The biggest minus for this bike was, according to the review, the loss of pedal force, which they measured (not sure exactly how) to 32%, which they meant made the bicycle hard to pedal without assist. I thought maybe that's specific to that particular bicycle, but this was the only bicycle with CX motor on that test (7 other bikes were tested), and it had the highest loss of pedal force in the whole test. The best in the whole test, and with least loss of pedal force, was the Haibike Sduro Trekking 6.0 with PW, it scored 21%. So I am leaning more and more towards the E8000, but, unfortunately, the E8000 is just not that common here. :-(
Yeah, saw Focus Bold 2 yesterday, a cool bike, but expensive here. They have it on "sale" now for about 2750 GBP, both 27,5 and 29" :-(
That is expensive! The LTD version is £1999 here including taxes and delivery! That's a shame...
Yes, I see you can get it for that in the UK now. Most things here are more expensive than in rest of Europe. It's a small bike store that is selling it, claiming that it's a "sales" price. The small shops here usually don't have any good deals. Luckily, the big sports store chains here often have some really good campaigns, but the problem is that they practically have no E8000 bikes in their sortiment. And the ones they have are usually some really expensive MTBs, like full suspension that usually cost like 4000+ EUR, so even if a deal popped up, it wouldn't be within my budget anyay. But you can get some simple MTBs with E8000 here for like 2300GBP, but I still can't justify spending that when you can get Bosch CX for like 1650 GBP now.
There was a good discount on a E8000 bike here recently, called White XC-E PRO 275. White is a brand owned by the largest sports store chain in Norway, called XXL. They also have stores in Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Austria. The bike looked ok, not fan of the colour though, however, for about 1550 GBP I would have bought it without hesitation, if they had my size in stock.. :-(
I must add though, that we have very strict consumer protection laws here, and that products that are meant to last significantly longer than 2 years, are covered by warranty for 5 years, according to law. This definitely applies to drive units on e-bikes, so I believe dealers/distributors bake this in the price a bit (I just assume). If you're a sports store that imports e-bikes from abroad (there are brands that have no official dealers/importers in this country), and you sell the bike to a consumer, and in 3-4 years the drive unit fails, you will have to cover the repair. So I think Norway can be a bit tough market for the manufacturers. For example, I know Bosch give 2 year warranty on their motors (at least I have heard), but if you sell it in Norway and have to cover it for 5 years, you probably will raise the prise on the unit, which means higher price for the consumer. However, this is not always true, and some products cost about the same as in other European countries, and if not, you just have to wait for deals, and you may end up getting it cheaper than in other countries, with a 5 year warranty. I know this very well, as I work in consumer electronics.
And if you get your DU replaced within the 5 years, you get brand new 5 year warranty on the new unit. It's the law. It's a tough market for the manufacturers/distributors/dealers here.
The CX will be about 20-25% faster on climbs. But Plus would be nicer on flat and gentle hills. Really depends how much of your rides involve climbing.
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