Wisperbikes to be made in Germany!

[Kudoscycles]

One factor nobody has mentioned is shipping costs,it costs £15.00 to ship a bike from China but the cheapest I can bulk ship bikes to Germany across the channel is £50.00 per bike. That's not a problem if building bikes to be sold in Germany but it is a problem for bikes being shipped back to the UK.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Woosh]

One factor nobody has mentioned is shipping costs,it costs £15.00 to ship a bike from China but the cheapest I can bulk ship bikes to Germany across the channel is £50.00 per bike. That's not a problem if building bikes to be sold in Germany but it is a problem for bikes being shipped back to the UK.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Dave,
I agree with you on the pricing you have quoted, but shipping costs are only part of the overall cost. Warehousing is substantially lower in Germany than in the UK, and Germany being the centre pretty much of EU trade it would make sense to base the operation there. Furthermore shipping from Germany to the UK is cheaper than the other way round.
On a slightly different note, I am not sure about the 'Made in Germany' label. I thought you needed more than 17% of German made components in order to claim that label, and the reduced range of 3 bikes would still be essentially the same as before. Comments anyone?
Lastly, you have also talked about Chinese crank drives making their debut at the Eurobike show. Can we expect to see any of them in the Kudos range soon? We have been looking at Bofeili bikes recently but cannot understand the fascination for crank drive (unless you have very weak legs and very steep hills....)?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hatti,
I never ship from Germany to the UK so was not aware that shipping costs in that direction are cheaper,but the bikes still have to come across the Chanel and that seems the expensive link.
We are currently testing 2 crank drive bikes,1 appears at this stage to be very good.
But we have a new system fitted to our latest hub drive bikes which absolutely transforms the low speed hill climbing ability,it may make crank drive only attractive if living in a very hilly area,the new system is ideal for riders who spend most of their riding on the flat or slight hill but occasionally have a steepie to climb,which is quite a common requirement.
For obvious reasons I do not wish to go into further details excepting to say that despite the higher specification and technology we will still maintain about £1000 price point,Kudos cycles is determined to make e-biking affordable to all.
Dave
Kudoscycles
Ps. About to jump on a plane back to the UK

 

[Wisper Bikes]

One factor nobody has mentioned is shipping costs,it costs £15.00 to ship a bike from China but the cheapest I can bulk ship bikes to Germany across the channel is £50.00 per bike. That's not a problem if building bikes to be sold in Germany but it is a problem for bikes being shipped back to the UK.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Wow, £10,000 for a bulk delivery seems a bit excessive Dave?

I assume by bulk you mean a 40' container?

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

There is nothing wrong with assembling bikes in China, we have been doing this for nearly eight years.

However......

As Flecc has correctly pointed out, due to a number of factors including rising wages, the reducing differential between assembly costs in China and Europe have made the reasons for not having production closer to home far less compelling. With more increases in the pipeline and the specter of the 48.5% ADDITIONAL dumping tax on the horizon, moving to Europe seemed to me to be a sensible move, providing a stable base for the future. I agree such a move would not be easy in a lot of respects for those companies that simply rebadge Chinese models. Having new models and developments in the pipeline we at Wisper need to pay close and constant attention to detail. Having spent many hundreds of hours flying back and forth between UK and Shanghai over the last eight years, I find the prospect of being able to "pop" over to the factory and back home in a day most appealing. This means that instead of quarterly production and development meetings in Shanghai, I can now visit the factory on a weekly basis if necessary. (My wife is not happy though, she loved all those airmiles!)

We intend to take full advantage of the massive market for our bikes just over the channel. In Germany especially, the "Made in Germany" badge is massively important. However people in Germany understand that a lot of components used to build "Made in Germany" bikes (and cars!) come from Asia, but importantly assembly and quality control is to European standards. The Germans feel more comfortable with the ultimate responsibility for production being close to home, it is a shame we in Britain don't feel the same. If we did maybe we would start to see factories opening again?

Components for our bikes come from all over Asia and will continue to do so, but now some of those components will be made in Europe. Companies such as Shimano have factories all over the world they simply follow the cheapest production possibilities. Who can blame them as long as they have control of quality?

I am very comfortable with the move, I think it will help us to continue to expand and improve.

All the best

David

 

[eddieo]

well done David makes absolute sense to me...i have seen the kudos bikes in the flesh and they are Chinese junk in my opinion.

Just a shame you could not bring the production home, but Germany probably the best place to insure quality and control

 

[Kudoscycles]

David. First of all I must compliment you on trying to sell bikes to the germans and I also agree that to be succesfull you have to be a german business or certainly perceived as such.
At the Eurobike show I was amazed that even the established sports bike manufacturers such as Scott or Specialised have joined the pedelec market and the number of smaller pedelec producers was so numerate,you must have something very special intended for Wisper to break into such a mature market.I know its a 400,000 unit business but there are a lot of players chasing it.
Out of interest what crank drive motor are you intending to use?
I am going to concentrate on the UK market,I think the volumes are slowly but steadily building.Big groups such as Raleigh are stimulating the market,which is good for all but I think there will always be room for an innovative small player such as Kudos,us Brits want a different style of bike that can only be satisfied by a niche supplier.
I enjoy my trips to China but they are annual not quarterly.
If the 48% anti dumping duty was imposed on the chinese suppliers I think I would look at shipping parts and final assemble in the UK,virtually all the frames come from China anyway.
Good luck with your german adventure I will follow it with interest,
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Woosh]

David,
I 'm not sure you are correct. If I understand correctly, the ADD @ 48.5% has been applied for bicycles under commodity code 8712 0010 since 2008 and will still be in force until October 2016. The electronic parts (eg battery code 8506) will remain at 4.7% if invoiced separately.
If and when e-bikes are placed under the same or similar ADD, the extra duty would only affect the mechanical parts of the bike originating from China, not from Taiwan (eg tyres & brakes). For bikes costing under £1000, this is not a big portion of Chinese made bikes.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

If the 48% anti dumping duty was imposed on the chinese suppliers I think I would look at shipping parts and final assemble in the UK,virtually all the frames come from China anyway....... Dave Kudos

Thanks Dave, if and when the dumping tax comes in, we should talk.

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David,
I 'm not sure you are correct. If I understand correctly, the ADD @ 48.5% has been applied for bicycles under commodity code 8712 0010 since 2008 and will still be in force until October 2016. The electronic parts (eg battery code 8506) will remain at 4.7% if invoiced separately.
If and when e-bikes are placed under the same or similar ADD, the extra duty would only affect the mechanical parts of the bike originating from China, not from Taiwan (eg tyres & brakes). For bikes costing under £1000, this is not a big portion of Chinese made bikes.

Thanks Hatti, I had not read that but it sounds sensible, where did you find the information?

All the best,

David

 

[Woosh]

Hi David,
As you probably know, the 48.5% applies to commodity codes 8712 0010 90, 0030 00 and 0080 90 (cheap no brand push bikes) whilst e-bikes fall under 8711 90 90 @ 6%.
I do not think there is much to fear from this 48.5% duty lark because:
Firstly, the original application for AD1778 was made in 2004 and took 4 years to implement. I don't see Chinese e-bikes ever forcing German factories to close, so even if ADD was introduced on ebikes, I don't think it would be before 2018 and would be at a much lower rate. Secondly, the ADD is already apportioned to the average input of 8712 that is part of an 8711, in the previous hike from 2.5% to 6%.
Thirdly, at worst, if we have to import separate parts, the major cost is from electrical components, subject to 4.7% duty, frames, which almost everyone sources from China as Dave at Kudos has pointed out, would be subjected to 48.5% and since they are the cheapest major part of the bike there would not be huge sums to pay. With separate BTAs for branded mechanical parts (eg parts originating from S. Korea have 0% duty), I think it would average about the same 6%. So...no need to alarm everyone!

On the matter of your pending move to Germany to ensure (amongst other things) much improved assembly and QC, I am surprised - you must have been on a constant mission over your 8 years to improve this? We have seen constant improvements from our suppliers over the course of just the past 12 months and like Kudos, we are now seeing remarkably good products with correct assembly and QC procedures and still at very competitive prices.
We also very much agree with Dave at Kudos that the British market is not quite the same as the European one. Life styles, terrain, traffic policies, disposable incomes and perceptions all come into play and will be certainly be met by the more niche suppliers like Kudos (and us).

All the best for your German operation, and yes, it is a lot nearer to Blighty than Shanghai, I definitely can't blame you for wanting that. Wurst and beer might also be a refreshing change from Peking duck and a Chinese pint. Enjoy!

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave,
I agree with you on the pricing you have quoted, but shipping costs are only part of the overall cost. Warehousing is substantially lower in Germany than in the UK, and Germany being the centre pretty much of EU trade it would make sense to base the operation there. Furthermore shipping from Germany to the UK is cheaper than the other way round.
On a slightly different note, I am not sure about the 'Made in Germany' label. I thought you needed more than 17% of German made components in order to claim that label, and the reduced range of 3 bikes would still be essentially the same as before. Comments anyone?
Lastly, you have also talked about Chinese crank drives making their debut at the Eurobike show. Can we expect to see any of them in the Kudos range soon? We have been looking at Bofeili bikes recently but cannot understand the fascination for crank drive (unless you have very weak legs and very steep hills....)?

The Bofeili motor was installed in several bikes at the Shanghai show,I visited the Bofeili factory-its a small business,classic family business-dad is the engineer,mum is the accountant and their daughter is translator/marketing. They produce complete e-bikes or sell motors to other assemblers,I think they gave a number of bikes to other booths at the Shanghai show,hence the reason so many booths had almost the same product. I would love to buy the Bofeili equipped bike but so many of my suppliers have rejected the motor citing needs further development and won't put a guarantee on the motor,some indicated alignment problems,at this time I cannot take the risk,which is a shame because the people at Bofeili are very nice to deal with.
I am sure you are aware that some 10 plus chinese hub motor suppliers are working on crank drive,many of them had stands at the Eurobike show,some using the MPF system of Taiwan that seems the most advanced. We are currently testing 2 of them but only one shows promise and it still needs the bugs ironed out-Bosch is a big company and I am sure they went through an extensive testing r&d program to bring their crank drive to its current developed stage,even the AEG system released at Eurobike still needed development and the price structure is similar to Bosch,it does have aftermarket potential not requiring a bespoke frame.
Why the fascination with crank drive-it allows you to ride up hills slower but with optimised power-the only weakness of hub drive is that the motor works best(peak torque)if the bike speed uphill is maintained at minimum 8 mph. If a rider allows the speed to fall to say 4 mph then the motor is straining,its below its optimum speed,the rider goes down in the gears,the bike goes slower and a negative loop is created. With crank drive the motor speed is constant and the power fed through the gears,combined with the rider power allows full power at a slower speed,this is particularly useful for an unfit rider.
Sram released a combined hub motor/gearbox that auto shifted between 2 gear sets so that slow speed riding in the lower gear would be possible and then a higher gear shifted on the flat-the problem is that the power only comes in at 4kmh so no help on hill starts,cannot see the point with that limitation.
We are working on a system,patent under consideration,that should bring the torque reaction of a hub drive at low speed hill climbs up to the power afforded by crank drive,avoiding the cost and complexity.
Not that it bothers me but if you are serious about selling e-bikes to germans you have to offer a crank drive bike,Bosch have done such a good marketing job that anything else is considered low technology. We both know that the current Bafang hub motors have been developed to the point of doing a good job of all but the steepest climbs and 26" wheeled hub drive bikes with some rider input impress most customers,but the germans are technocrats and love all the technology,even if at times it is superfluous.
2013 will be an exciting year for e-bike development.
Dave
Kudoscycles