Brangdon

I don't know anyone who isn't category 2 or 3. However, a lot of people seem very sure they help, and a lot seem very sure they don't, so both groups can come across as 1 or 4. Saying, "It is foolish not to wear a helmet" comes across as 4 even if you believe people have a right to be foolish. I'm a bit dubious about the arguments either way. I too would be interested in the answer to rooel's question, but it doesn't look like subevo has visited the site recently.

All the time. If I lift the front wheel off the ground and twist the handle slightly, it catches for a moment, and then cuts out again. So basically no load at all.

Are the codes the same for the Liv? On mine the motor has started cutting out; the ignition LED blinks 6 times, which the Torq list says means the battery needs charging, but it's been charged and the bike's indicator shows green. 50Cycles suggested checking the connections, which I've done, to no avail.

Correct apart from the last one. 100% means rising 1 metre in height over 1 metre horizontally. A vertical brick wall would have an infinite gradient.

I generally use a dual-use track on my commute, but I agree about the drawbacks. You lose right of way at junctions. In general I feel like a 3rd class citizen; cars treat me like a pedestrian rather than as a vehicle because I'm on the pavement. The track is only on one side of the road, so you sometimes have to cross two lanes of traffic to join or leave it. Also, the track ends too early, just a few yards from the industrial estate where I work. The track is shared with pedestrians. My local pedestrians seem to be training as ninjas. They wear dark clothing with no lights or reflective strips, and become all but invisible at night. They don't pay much attention to what's going on around them because they think the pavement is safe. By default they take up all the width of the pavement. When they do move aside, the track is so narrow that there is not a lot of room for error when passing them. The upshot is that you have to work a lot harder. The benefit is that most problems can be solved by slowing down and/or waiting, and if there is a collision it's less likely to be serious.

Does anyone know for sure if the lights included in the eZee Liv satisfy BS 6102/3? I had been presuming they do, but I just went out to check and I as far as I can see they are not marked with the standard, which I gather the standard says they must be.

Would the battery have lasted longer if the bike wasn't derestricted?

I'm a happy Liv owner. I take the battery out to charge mainly for security reasons. My garage is not secure, and if I kept the bike, battery and charger in there someone could nick the lot. (The bike is chained to a wall, but that wouldn't stop a determined thief.) I figure that if the charger is indoors, a knowledgeable thief is less likely to bother as they'd need to acquire a charger from elsewhere, which is expense and risk for them. If the battery is indoors overnight, so much the better. Together they cost £300 which is almost half the value of the bike. Of course an ignorant thief might take the bike despite it being worthless, and crime isn't really a problem in my area anyway so this is probably needless paranoia. But that's my reasoning. Incidentally, I've found that I've spent £100 or more on peripherals on top of the cost of the bike. The Liv comes with lights, bell and rack, but I also needed a lock, rack-pack, pump, tools and wet-weather clothing.

I've not seen the A2B article, but there was a widely reported study by Dr Walker which more or less says the opposite: that cars pass closer if the cyclist is wearing a helmet. This would make sense in terms of risk compensation, especially if the driver also supposes that the helmet means the rider is more experienced. Even if the helmet does offer real protection in an accident (which is doubtful if a car is involved), the safety benefits could well be undone if it also makes accidents more likely.

I did a trip last week on a Liv without pedalling, and although it got me home the battery light was orange after just a few of miles. As if it had 1/3rd the range. Gentle pedalling helps a lot, and I should think one-legged pedalling would help too. The usual advice is to keep the battery charged up, and that is especially true if you might have a bad day and rely on it to get you home. As you are in Derby, it is probably worth arranging to visit 50Cycles in Leicester and trying out a few bikes. (I'm in Nottingham, by the way.) I didn't like the feel of the Quando so wouldn't advise anyone to buy one without trying it.

I found that on what seemed like a flat road my Liv would do about 17mph in one direction and then about 15mph going the other way. I think the limit of its speed is strongly affected by very slight inclines, wind etc. (I'm not yet sure if having a fresh battery makes a difference; it's hard to tell with other factors.) I can reach 18 or 19mph by peddling. It's seems easier than it would be with a push-bike because the motor still seems to give some assistance at that speed. Getting to 20mph and above is hard on the Liv, even going downhill, because of its gearing.

Quite so. When I was running my new battery until it cut out, I had to peddle it up hill, and then I needed the lower gear. On the other hand, now that the battery is run in and my commute is under 5 miles, I shouldn't need to pedal with flat battery ever again. Or at least, it should be rare enough that I can walk up the hills if needed. On saddles, when I tested the Liv I also test-road a Sprint, and that had a much more comfortable seat. However, my commute is short enough that it doesn't really matter. Many decades ago, as a child, I had a mirror on my push-bike, and found it was useless. It was too small, and on a stalk that was too unsteady. So that put me off mirrors generally. However, I do miss the mirrors I have in my cars. Maybe it is just a matter of finding a good one.

Presumable some of the cost is R&D, and risk. Bike batteries may not be as esoteric as plane ones, but they are more esoteric than mobile phone batteries.

I have a new Liv. On the first two charges it did about 17 miles until it cut out. On the third charge it managed about 20. I gather it is normal for the range to increase over the first few charges (the manual mentions it). The amber light seemed to come on at 50% after the second charge, and a bit later for the third. It sounds like I got slightly better than you on my first charge and slightly worse on the later ones. That might be down to the way we use it. I tend to keep it on full throttle all the time, but also peddling moderately hard for speed. I think I was averaging about 15mph, although I've not measured it recently. The roads are mostly gentle slopes. It's been more windy recently than it was when I started. I'm planning to start more frequent charges now, and I'll probably do another range test after a month or so to see how it is doing then.

I've filled in a review form now, but my post here is much fuller.

I bought a Liv a couple of weeks ago. I have got 17 miles out of my first two charges. I'm told this will improve as the battery matures, but at the moment I wouldn't plan to do a 24-mile round trip without recharging in the middle. If it does go flat you can still peddle it home - it's just a bit heavier than a normal bike.

Thanks for the advice. Changing the spocket sounds like a good idea. What do you call a "full discharge"? The first time I rode it until the motor cut out. I've read elsewhere that it's not needed to go so deep, and probably best avoided for general reasons. The manufacturer notes say it needs 2 cycles to attain capacity, but doesn't say they should be full cycles. I wasn't sure whether to post the review here or in the reviews section. I figured here it would attract more attention. I hope to add to it and then copy it to the other section. I was surprised there are no Liv reviews already in it, as it is said to be a popular bike.

Would you rather have to keep pedalling, or have to hold a throttle twisted, to get the motor assist?

I bought an eZee Liv a few weeks ago. Here are my experiences. 50cycles in Loughborough are close to me and seemed respected on this forum, so I arranged to visit them late one Saturday. They are in a quiet area close to the edge of town (at least, it was quiet then). There was no company sign up, so you need to know the building number to find them. I had in mind the foldable Quando, or else the high-end Forte. As it happened they didn't have the Forte in stock, and I'm not good at delayed gratification so I forgot about it. They did have lots of Torqs, but I didn't like the look of them. I know everyone else thinks they are cool, but they weren't for me. They had a Forza, but with that one you have to pedal, which for me kinda defeats the object. (I've since learned the benefit is that you don't need to keep the throttle twisted with your hand, which must indeed be nice, but personally I'd rather not have to pedal.) I didn't test-ride any bike that I wasn't potentially going to buy, so I didn't try any of the high-end bikes. Hopefully I won't miss what I've never experienced. The first bike I tried was the Quando. I very much like the idea of a folding bike, but didn't like the idea of only one gear. It turned out not to matter because the bike felt wrong. I was too big, or the wrong shape, or something; it just didn't fit. I hated it. It was definitely worth a test ride to find that out. I then tried a Sprint. This was fine. Then I tried the Liv, and that was fine too. I couldn't really see what extra the Sprint would bring me; it has 7 gears rather than the Liv's 3, but the top gear didn't seem very different. So I bought the Liv for £700 rather than the Quando for £1000. I took it with me by loading it into my convertible with the roof down (which proved a slightly more tense drive home than I'd anticipated). My first act on getting it home was to put the battery on charge. The charger is beefy and has its own fan. It switched itself off after about 4 hours; I don't think it does any kind of trickle-charge. You have to fully charge the battery (which is also beefy) before first use. The bike came with 3 Alan keys for adjusting various bits and bobs. However, none of the 3 fitted the saddle, which did need adjusting. I presume this was an oversight. Not a big deal because I had my own Alan keys which fitted. It did not come with a tyre pump and the tyres are only partially inflated, so you need to use your own pump before you can ride the bike. To actually go anywhere you also need a bike lock, so that you can secure it at your destination. I had the sense to buy one of these at the same time as the bike. If you are under-age or think its suicide to ride without a helmet, you'll need one of those too. I'm not and don't so I didn't bother. (I gather this is a controversial area.) The Liv did not come with a trip-computer, but that's OK because I have a GPS which does the job. It does come with front and rear lights. These run off the main battery (ie not a dynamo). I'd describe them as adequate. The front one isn't especially bright, especially when you keep getting dazzled by on-coming car headlights, but it's enough to cycle by and keeps the bike legal at night. I was able to properly ride my bike the same evening, at around 11:30pm (did I mention I'm not into delayed gratification?) Basically, it works as advertised. My daily commute is about 5 miles in total. With my old push-bike I averaged about 10mph; with the Liv I average about 15mph and I am not knackered and sweaty when I arrive. I have used it for every commute since getting it, where-as with my old bike I really couldn't be bothered. Admittedly it's been nice weather - I don't know how I'll be when the clocks go back and the rain starts. The brakes work smoothly without any judder or squealing. If you are not familiar with eBikes at all, it is a bit like a motorbike in that you get a throttle on the left handle which you twist to make it go, and you don't have to peddle. It is unlike a motorbike in that if you don't pedal it only goes at about 16mph on the flat, and the range for the first charge was about 18 miles in total. (I'm told that will improve as the battery matures.) It is legally classed as a bicycle so you don't need tax, licence or helmet (if you're under 18) and you get to use cycle paths. You go faster if you peddle. This is where the gears come in - they apply to your pedalling not the motor. 16mph is just slow enough to encourage you to put some effort in, which is a good thing for health reasons. Although an eBike isn't as healthy as a push-bike, it's more healthy than a car and the more you pedal the better it is. The Liv has 3 gears. In practice I found peddling furiously in top gear got it up to around 20mph. I would have preferred top gear to be a bit higher. I find that fit athletes with sports bikes can overtake unfit me with a motor. I gather the lower gears are useful for hill starts. I don't do any of those. There are some slopes in my commute, fairly gentle (but they killed my on my push-bike), and they slow the Liv down a bit but that's just more reason to pedal. I can keep the bike in top gear all the time, using the motor to help get me started. Similarly I usually have the throttle either full on or full off. I am gradually learning to control it at slower speeds, when necessary (eg when negotiating past queuing cars). There is a switch which changes from "eBike" to "pedelec" mode, meaning whether the throttle alone starts the engine or whether you also need to pedal. The latter seems to be mostly a safety feature. I had planned to leave it in "eBike", until I accidentally twisted the throttle while man-handling the bike in my kitchen. Now I keep it in "pedelec" unless I am actually riding it. The throttle is on a spring so you have to keep it held even when peddling (unlike the Forza). There is a key for the ignition; you can't start the motor without it in place. I presume this is another safety feature. I find it a bit annoying as you need to keep clipping and unclipping it from your keyring (and it doesn't immobilise the bike, so you still need a separate lock and key). The key also locks the battery into place. When you remove the key from the ignition, you need to do so in the "off" position not the "open" position if you want to keep your battery safe in the bike. It took me a little while to twig that. The battery is too heavy to carry around casually so I keep it in the bike except when charging. Um, that's about it. I've no experience with other eBikes so I can't really compare it. Overall I am pleased with my purchase as it does the job.

They have a limited number of recharges; the range is given in your article here as 300-500. If this battery is being recharged twice a day, 5 days a week, it will have reached the upper end of that limit after 50 weeks, or about a year. So as it is over a year old it could well be nearing the end of its life. Speaking as one with no experience, I think recharging twice a day is very frequent. I gather a partial recharge is as damaging as a full recharge. Your article also says that for long-term storage batteries are happiest at 40% of full charge. I conclude that recharging too often is a mistake (albeit not as bad as recharging too rarely). My own daily commute uses about a quarter charge, and I plan to recharge at most every other day, at 50%, rather than every day, at 75%. There's an argument for every third day, at 25%, because that should be high enough to prevent damage from over-discharging, while reducing the number of recharges and letting the battery spend the most time around 40%. It all seems a bit of a lottery, though. And if my two-way commute was much over 80% I'd probably recharge in the middle too.

This article is quite interesting too: battery_level_monitor_tech_improvements. Bikes will switch off if they think the battery is getting too low, and they tend to be conservative about how they estimate that. A more accurate and confident reading should translate into higher effective capacity even if the underlying chemistry isn't changed.

I considered a Forza, but was put off by the "ingenious cruise control system". It sounds like you have to keep pedalling to get any assist. The Forte was temporarily out of stock and I didn't like the look of the Torq (I know, I'm so uncool), so I ended up with the cheaper Liv. With only 3 gears that probably wouldn't be enough bike for you. I'd recommend you contact 50cycles and arrange for a test session.

I bought an eZee Liv last weekend, for a 2-mile daily commute. I need to take some stuff with me - lunch, the bike lock, extra clothing etc. I am wondering what other people do about carrying this kind of thing. At the moment I am using a rucksack, but I'd rather not have something so heavy on my back. I'd rather something which clipped to the rear luggage rack. I'd prefer it to be quick release, and my impression is that such bags tend to have specialised attachment systems. How do I tell whether a given bag will attach to my bike? The rack seems to be a bit esoteric, since the battery makes an unusually wide gap between the rack and the saddle. Is it feasible to get a messenger bag or something which will be held by the rack's own spring? I sometimes carry my D-lock like that. On a related note, what do you do with the ignition key? I can't remove it from the bike when the ignition is on, and I don't like all my other keys to dangle from the side of the bike, so I don't keep it on my usual key-ring. Nor do I like to leave it in the bike when the bike's unattended.