Fish36

With regard to some members who have vast amounts of posts to their name and the value of their contribution to the forum, flecc saved me a fortune when looking to buy a pre-owned e-bike: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/selling-and-buying-second-hand-e-bikes.4311/#post55373 So too right as a newbie I don't know flecc from Adam as the saying goes, never exchanged a post with him, but I sure value the contribution he and folks like him make here. I would never bought an e-bike without the many contributions to this forum like his and their content. It's one of reasons I read the forum so much, bought an e-bike and eventually joined.

Couldn't agree more OxygenJames! Having taken a look through a few of the recent comments I would agree some of the technical discussion can seem a bit 'sterile' though to conduct the work/DIY chatted successfully and safely in some threads requires complete understanding of what one proposes undertaking...for one I will be eternally grateful to the many trade and non-trade members, and also the owners of this site for providing great assistance to me by just being able to read the existing threads through or now that I am a recently joined member have taken the time to directly assist me:) Those members who have made many thousands of posts and dedicated a considerable gift of their time to the forum members make Pedelecs to my mind so welcoming. A lot of us could probably learn a great deal from these folks (trade and non-trade) and not just on e-bikes as it is obvious many of them have held very interesting/senior positions in varied roles and have a great breadth of knowledge that most importantly they are willing to impart if asked. This particular thread was started because a trade member wished to be able to launch their new bikes in a highly visible place, that is what is being debated if I have things correctly? This thread is not about trade contributions on a 'I need a new bike, what do you recommend' thread which I have also found some of the contributions a bit 'cheesy' to say the least at times when I was just a casual reader and non-member of the forum. Though I for one welcome a really thorough and easy to find new bike launch thread per each new bike. A 'press release' elsewhere may be all bluster with no opportunity to critique, though a willingness to describe your new bike, why it was spec'd that way, who it is aimed at and suitable for...then allow everyone on the forum to Q&A on that bike directly underneath to me is priceless and actually takes some real belief in your product as a trade member as there are some seriously knowledgeable non-trade members here who will pull a 'bad bike' or poorly priced bike to bits for all to see. My first e-bike was pre-owned and selected with the help of reading many threads on this forum, that knowledge gained from just reading made my selection a great choice (for me) and I couldn't be happier with the bike and it will soon be back in action thanks to the kind gift of time and input from forum members, one in particular who to my mind deserves a medal for the quality of his input and the patience he gives that input with. My next bike is likely to be brand new and will cost between £1500 and £2500, and be used for something completely different to my current bike. Too right I want to know all I can about potentially suitable bikes before I commit that kind of cash...and a full-on bike launch in a visible place followed by 'expert' and newbie members questions will go a long way to swaying my purchasing decision. Then the owners can give input on the bikes straight into the same thread and we will all know if the bike and support lives up to expectations. Appreciate everyone in likely to want something different from this forum, at different times though I have found members contributions on their e-bike adventures super motivational and EddiePJ's posts on this forum almost single handedly got me into e-biking which I am loving...and it has already improved every area of my life! Though I read another thread just the other day from a chap who had purchased a new e-bike and it was brilliant to get a feeling of his excitement for his purchase, made me feel all warm and fuzzy on his behalf...smashing stuff:)

Brilliant d8veh, thank you. All understood:) Just looked on the HK website and see how ordering from the UK warehouse is done now. Would definately add a battery disconnect switch (one of the heavy duty car battery type ones we chatted earlier in the thread) between the battery and the first red square connector box indicated on your very kindly provided diagram, this would then disconnect positive power flow from everything connected to the battery. What size of fuse would you suggest please for my installation? The controller indicates a 14amp max for the controller. Would I put the fuse between the battery and the heavy duty switch?

Many thanks to d8veh as always for the input, and also Scimitar & KirstinS for your contributions. The Accucel 6 charger for the extra tenner to gain the fan cooling and cooler operation seems a fair idea, though I really am thankful to d8veh for spec'ing everything at the most affordable level in his post as he knows money is tight for me just now. Charging the batteries individually sounds like a good way to start then as you say d8veh I can monitor if each individual cell in each pack is 'behaving' then go on to using one of the suggested devices that lets multiple packs be charged at the same time once am happy both packs are all good. So, the little digital volt display and the higher featured 60V/100A Battery Balance LCD Voltage Power Analyzer Watt Meter are the either/or part of the 'kit'? With the watt meter giving more useful data to understand how the battery pack is being drawn upon during usage and enabling me to learn more about my e-bikes battery usage? The lipo alarms look like a good investment, and as you know am very much into my 'belt & braces' and as Scimitar mentioned, good DIY is properly done DIY...neat, professional, safe. Do the alarms just plug directly into the balance wire block connector during usage? Then a warning sounds if one cell in either pack starts to fail/have an above average drop in voltage? Am appreciative of the safety tips on handling lipo packs and also being very wary of bare wires during assembly, thank you. Would foam packing the battery packs with additional foam inbetween them in say a well made Tupperware type box with a secure lid help protect them from drops and bangs adequately? It would make for easy removal of the packs though good protection in use then just slide the box in a pannier? Using the suggested battery packs sounds pretty straightforward and would give me a much lighter battery pack, much more suited to my planned usage. If I have the above correct? Just a question on the voltage/watt monitoring please. It looks like the small digital volt display just plugs into the +/- feed then can run a single pair of wires up to the handlebars to keep an eye on things? But if I went with the watt meter it looks like the supply from the battery needs to run into the meter then the output wires from the meter need to go back down to the controller giving a run of 2x pairs of wires along the frame and a much longer length of wiring between the battery and the controller? If am correct in how it all connects up, does this say 3m length of wire from battery to controller via the meter on the handlebars make a difference to battery performance? Final Q, just on HobbyKing (HK), those batteries direct from the website, would they be despatched from the UK? I notice HK have a shop on Ebay, or at least there is a shop with that name on there selling the same stuff, the prices seem higher (as am sure they would be with Ebays margin on sales) though the shop states the batteries are despatched from the uk. Once my road bike if back being a happy bunny am still in two minds on my MTB e-bike. Half of me just says get a ready built bike and go and enjoy it...the other half says get a great used high-spec non-ebike MTB and put a kit/package on it yourself and enjoy the assembly process and knowing how everything works:) Once my knee and finances improve will make my decision and if I go self assembly them what I learn putting together my own battery packs becomes very useful and higher S's may well be interesting to put on the MTB:)

D8veh, am very appreciative of the very comprehensive reply including very helpful links to the required kits 'parts list', thank you:) Am also exceedingly grateful for the warning on the used battery pack as that is exactly the occurrence I would obviously seek to avoid. Okies, that seems like a potential goer as far as cost and relative simplicity goes, though as you probably expected, a number of newbie questions if I may please? Charging the assembled pack. Let me see if I can get serial and parallel the correct way around:) In usage the 2 packs would be serial (double up on voltage though same ah output as one battery?) but for charging they would be parallel as a pair with 2 balance wires plugged in at the same time, or each battery charged totally separately, one at a time? Does that battery supplier despatch from the UK, or would it be shipping from abroad with potentially higher P&P and some import duties? Would I need to manufacture anything on a PCB or is it all a case of careful soldering, attaching suitable connectors and just putting the suggested items in the correct place? Is it better to use 5S or 6S? My current 36v battery pack, though cream-crackered puts out 41+v. It seems 2x6S will do me 44.4v and 2x5S only 37v...with an in-use voltage drop on drawing power and a LVC on my controller of 31.5v, is 2x5S @ 37v going to hit LVC? I notice the battery packs are spec'd in 'C' ratings (spreads of from/to). This is something I have heard of in passing though know nothing about. Could you please give me an indication of what C 'spread' might be suitable for my standard 36v 250w Bafang hub? Is there a good lay-persons guide to C ratings you would recommend? As always, your kind input is gratefully received, cheers d8veh

Sounds like it was some sight!!

Am still smiling at the thought of three drive units and 4.9KW on launch!! No wonder things spin a bit and can get a little unwieldy! Back to batteries if I may please d8veh...is it possible for the 'average' person capable of using a soldering iron and a multimeter (though not much more) to put together a small ah capacity 36v battery pack from readily available in the UK parts? Something cost effective to assemble, safe to charge, compact and with reasonable longevity/charging cycles? I appreciate that the battery packs are unlikely to have a BMS so am taking it the charger needs to take over this role and therefor must be a bespoke, non-ebike charger? Something about 5ah would be spot-on. I see this guy on UK Ebay item number 261386759295 regularly selling these though I have no idea what is under the orange plastic and why the packs this particular person advertises are always 'used'. Would much prefer to have a new battery pack, do these packs come from r/c modelling? Apologies for picking your brains so much though it is obvious you have been there, seen it, tried it, done it and made it work!

Hehe, the Bristol event sounds like great fun...a long way from me though if I know it is happening I can do my best to get down there and make a weekend of it:)

Developing into a very interesting and highly pertinent thread with regard to the 'trade' input on the forum. When a prospective purchaser asks 'which bike is best for my specific usage model' which is basically the question all us newbies are asking/thinking/considering...to state the obvious it is a question about e-bike suitability. Every trade member on here no doubt represents some great e-bikes, be that bike £500 or £5k or anywhere in between. They are all no doubt great bikes to the right person. What really matters to the potential purchaser is the suitability of the available/suggested bikes. Quality of anything, in this case an e-bike, comes from that bike meeting the person in questions criteria of suitability, therefore by extension meeting their expectations. A 100% Chinese bike with lower end components sourced 100% off the shelf with quite a hefty weight and no external design input may still be absolutely ideal, meet the persons criteria fully and therefore be a quality purchase they enjoy for many years, THEIR expectations fully met. It is however unlikely to be capable or suitable for some other usage models, but that doesn't mean it is not a quality purchase (for the right person). I have seen some trade members contribute to a thread, understand the persons requirements and go on to recommend an e-bike from another supplier. There also seem to be some that recommend their brand regardless. So back to Dave's point...a full description of each new bike to the market on the forum in a very visible place would be a very valuable contribution to the site. A story of how the bike was designed, what were the considerations in relation to specifying the components, what the supplier envisages the bike is suitable for (road and light trails/mainly off-road/long distance touring etc.) would be of great assistance to prospective purchasers. A highly visible, really insightful description of new models has so many benefits to everyone (not just a few pic's and a spec, but as i said in my earlier post it needs to include the full back-story of development, how it was spec'd and why, and an overview of potential rider usage scenario suitability would be exceedingly helpful) and I can only see this type of posting enhancing what is already an excellent forum and place to learn about amazing e-bikes:)

Wow! They are both very impressive conversions...if you do use the 3-motored beast again in anger please let me know where the hill climb challenge is as I will do my best to be there, would love to see that bike in action...4.9KW is some serious take-off power!

As a forum 'newbie' I would like to contribute to this thread if I may please. Just thought a purely general public, new to e-bikes point of view might have some value? I suspect there are many people out there similar to myself...I started to look at e-bikes for a reason (in my case health related) and a search on a popular search engine brings up the Pedelecs site usually near the top of results. Click on one of those links and generally you are in to a good quality and highly informative e-bike discussion. Before I joined the forum I had read a great number of threads and 100's of very interesting posts by both trade and individuals. Many thousands of people no doubt read this forum and go on to make a buying decision from what they read without ever becoming a member or making a single posting. As this thread is trade related here is the relevance. It soon becomes clear some trade members contribute a fantastic amount of time to this forum giving great insight into their products, their bikes specifications, the spares situation and their route to market (ie dealer or mainly direct sale) giving a member of the general public a great insight into buying from that company and how the ongoing running of that bike may be. Do I want to buy from LBS or am I happy buying at distance? Do I want local dealer support in return for accepting that dealer of course quite rightly gets a margin from the sale? Those trade members that do commit this huge investment in time and effort are the ones I would personally feel comfortable to purchase a new bike from as I actually feel I know something about the company, their bikes, the efforts they went into on putting together a good spec for the whole machine, even their trips to relevant trade shows to view the latest technology that they may then go on to apply to their bikes. If they hadn't contributed to this forum or ceased to be part of it, then I would have no clue about their bikes and would be highly unlikely to purchase one because I would never have become familiar with their brand and given in consideration. It is important to me that when new technology that improves e-bikes in general (lighter weight, better spec, improved battery life/types etc.) is brought together in a new model that this information is available not just on the dealers website but here and is easy to find, not hidden away. But I don't want just a picture and a spec list...I want to know the 'story'. That the frame was manufactured in the same facility that builds 'XYZ' brands 'premium' frames, I want to know why something is better or improved...basically, why I would want to buy it over other choices available out there. Newbie's like myself are unlikely to have the 'inside' industry knowledge of why a BPM motor is better than a standard one etc. So for someone like me, I want to know there is a new machine available and I want to know about the thought process that created the spec behind it. This forum is to my mind perfect for that as long as the information can be found easily. I feel there is a big difference between a thread that announces a new machine going into great detail for potential purchasers benefit compared to the 'I need a bike to get to work' thread and dealers varying levels of 'contributions'. Oh, and yes, a separate section just for battery related stuff might be spot-on:)

Thanks once again d8veh, a closer look at the Deans connectors and can see they are much better suited for frequent connect/disconnect. Sometimes I'm a bit too much 'belt & braces' when there are simpler/better/lighter options out there so as always your wise advice is much appreciated. Going on to a totally different topic for a minute if I may, as am nearly there with the battery replacement project. Did think of doing a 2WD drive conversion on it, though to be fair it does what it is meant to do just fine as a very capable and comfortable A-2-B road bike and think I will look in a different direction for my next project...so... Did I read you had converted a bog-stock mountain bike, a Kraken? Would be really interested to see some pic's if you could point me towards a thread for the project, if it has one? Am happy to be getting there on road bike renovation though I don't see it as a potential off-roader, waaaaaaaay too heavy. Though the conversion of a light'ish weight MTB sounds interesting:) Used to be into all the enduro bikes KTM, Honda, Husky etc. though would be happy to be able to do some of that 'green lane' type of stuff on an e-bike...think EddiePJ is doing a great job of really getting out there on his bike and read his threads with great interest and it reminds me what am missing! Those Haibike's look amazing and the Kudos Eiger seems very well spec'd and capable, and very tempting!...though plenty of great MTB's for sale on that well known auction site just waiting to be converted once the budget allows.

Thanks d8veh, good food for thought there:) Sadly my on/off switch is moulded into the battery case so would mean cutting it out of the case and as I may yet in the future re-cell the case am reluctant to do that...idea 3 looks great though a bit beyond my skill level sadly (but thanks for the diagram)...and yup, had thought of the Anderson connector, so similar thing to the Deans but not sure on that spark and crackle each time it is unplugged! Might go with this idea if you think it would be ok? Ebay uk item 360790724566 mounting the terminals inside a Maplin box as you mentioned above...this should be ok?

Thanks for the pic of the Cyclamatic, yup that is exactly how I intend to mount the new battery, maybe in a small on-top-of-the-rack mount pannier to hide it away though cable tie the battery to the rack through the pannier for security. And yes, the Kudos team are really helpful and their battery prices are very fair. Their willingness to help owners of other brands is very nice also. Sadly my battery case splits open like a 'suitcase' so it has a seam next to the long downtube all the way down the case and another opposite the rear wheel though will certainly use the free space where the old pack used to sit for my nice chunky waterproofs as as suggested, ideal place for them:) So soon it will be a very discrete electric bike with nothing much electrical really visible. One quick question please if I may. I have removed the battery terminal connector that used to sit in the base of the frame for the original battery to slide into and will use this on the rectangular Kudos battery pack (cutting the 2-pin connector from the terminal so it can simply click in to the connector that goes into the controller). So great, that just leaves me needing to add a foot or so of similar guage wire to reconnect it all....BUT... The rectangular rack mount battery packs, unlike the behind the seat post ones don't look to have the on/off key switch in the battery pack (looks to be in the plastic box the battery slides into on the OEM bikes which i presume holds the controller etc) so this leaves me needing a way to connect and disconnect the battery current, yes? I thought about using a 'rally car' battery cut-off switch as these are high amp rated (Ebay uk item number 181308173871)...is there a better/cheaper way to fit an on/off switch between battery and controller please d8avh?

Hi Mike, agree with your thoughts...so will go with a brand new rack mount 10ah LiFePO4 battery and leave my original unit as a summer 'perhaps take a further look inside' project:) Though hope my taking a look at this battery and d8veh's excellent very helpful input might assist other electric bike newbies in deciding what best to do when a battery fails and is very expensive to replace via the OEM. Can always buy an upright behind seat post battery of the universal silver casing type at a point in the future if I go ahead with a 2WD project, though for the time being would just be happy to have the bike on the road in standard one wheel drive at an affordable price and the rack mount battery will achieve that admirably.

Thanks for the clarification on the 17v reading d8veh. Think it is more than likely those 2x low voltage cell groups do have u/s individual cells in them so as you say the only way to restore them would be a full strip down and replace. Point understood on testing the 10x cell groups individually under load to see what the voltage drop is on each of them under load to assess overall health of each group and the battery pack as a whole. Will go with the new rack mount battery for now as the price is very fair from Kudos Dave and take a look at the old battery pack in the summer when i can work on it outside in the warmer weather:) Thanks once again for all the input, very much appreciated:)

ah, thank you for that d8veh, photo's very much appreciated. So please bear with me as am a total newbie. It looks like I have 8x 'good' cell groups (good as in they are 4.2v per group though no idea if they can take a current draw) and 2x u/s groups (which are already way under voltage). So if 2x groups wiped out immediately under a current demand, that would still leave me with 8x 4.2v (33.6v) going into the controller. I gather my controller actions cut-out at 31.5v so the bike should still operate, though we are on the very fine line of ordinary voltage drop under load of the 8x good cells triggering the cut-off? Though having said that, the other day i measured overall voltage output after cut-off at 17v for the whole battery. So is there a chance even the 'good' 4.2v cell groups are worn out also? My pack could very well be just like the ones in your pics and I suspect there is a leak also which would explain the low reading from 2x cell groups. Anyones guess at the moment how many individual cells are u/s as the photo shows in your example 14 individual cells per 'unit'. So it could be from 2x to 28x cells gone. I didn't measure the actual battery pack itself though the inside measurements of the battery casing are 97mm x 88mm (the length of the battery pack itself is about 260mm including the BMS on top, so the battery will be about 220mm in length and is 36v 14ah). Take about 6mm off each of those width & depth measurements for external foam packing (between inside of case and pack), then remove say 3mm for the tape wrapped around the battery pack/any sheet material keeping the cells in place and that would make the actually cell pack measurements 88mm x 79mm...is the height of the cells in the pics anything like either of those measurements? If it is like above, sadly I do not have any surplus cells to replace the malfunctioning ones with and as much as I am maybe capable of soldering the cut individual battery connectors as you show above am not sure i would wish to as am a bit cack-handed at times! I also do not have any of the diagnostic equipment that might be required to kick-start individual cell groups. Even though this is Lithium Polymer battery which I gather has a good service life, I know the battery has been used hard (long hilly journeys) and the pack is now 3 to 4yrs old. Do you think it is worth repairing? Am in no hurry to spend £200 on a new pack though to repair this one I would need a kind soul like yourself to do the repair which means covering the cost of replacement cells and labour inputted. Then there is posting the battery there and back so the costs will soon add up:( I really like to recycle when at all possible, but it has to be cost effective and the end result be worthwhile. It feels a bit debatable on whether it is worth trying to repair?

ps... Current battery is Wisper 36v 14ah Lithium Polymer. Wisper replacements on the PowaRider website: 36v 11ah £449 36v 16ah £525

Thanks for the further input d8veh, appreciated. The battery pack is rectangular with flat sides so the chances of the cells being cylindrical might be quite low. As you say 2x cells have issues and it looks like it could be difficult to replace these. Also, just as a precaution if I strip the battery pack right down i would wish to do that outdoors and it isn't really the weather for it right now. Not much spare money laying around at the moment so will look at getting a rack/bottle battery now (was thinking the approx. £200 36v x 10AH LiFePO4 rack mount battery from Kudos Dave might be the best option?) as that is the best value, already in the UK, LiFePO4 I have found. Am aware Whoosh Hatti has the 'Big Bear' Samsung cell'd 36v 15ah Li-Po battery for £350 inc VAT and P&P though that may be out of my budget:( Think i will strip the existing battery case in summer and confirm if it can be repaired or not. If not, i can keep the case until the rack/bottle battery starts to run its course and then look at getting Ping battery to make a bespoke 10ah+ LiFePO4 battery configuration that will fit inside. Would like to try a 2WD conversion if funds improve in the near'ish future. So a rack/bottle battery now and a Ping battery inside my old case and job done as I would then have 2x 36v 10ah batteries and just need a front wheel kit:) Seem like a reasonable plan?

Ok:) went for a ride on the bike, turned on the battery, used pedal assist for 100m then wound on the throttle, within 2 seconds the low voltage disconnects the battery, cycle home and open battery pack. Check the underside of the spare balance wire connector i mentioned before, 10x black wires 1x red wire. Multimeter red lead onto the red wire in the connector then individually the multimeter black lead onto onto each of the 10 black wires. Starting with the black wire next to the red and working away from the red, readings as follows: 1- 4.17 2- 8.34 (4.17 difference) 3- 12.52 (4.18) 4- 16.69 (4.17) 5- 20.3 (3.61) 6- 24.3 (4.00) 7- 28.0 (3.70) 8- 32.2 (4.20) 9- 36.4 (4.20) 10- 40.6 (4.20) Battery charges to 41.1v maximum. Interesting that the readout was cumulative. Also, reading 5 and beyond required the multimeter to be upped from 20v to 200v so lost the accuracy of the additional decimal place sadly. D8veh, the BMS was where you indicated it would be at the top of the battery pack, thanks for the hint. Didn't unpack the BMS or battery pack any further as was getting the above voltage data without delving deeper. Would seem there are a couple of under voltage cells though as the battery hits low voltage cut-off within a few seconds of any 'draw' being put on it, would it be fair to say this battery has just done its days? I'm not the first owner and know the bike has been well used and covered a lot of miles.

Think your 'crystal ball' on this maybe being just a totally worn out battery is going to prove spot on, on this one. I have managed to test voltages, just need to write up the results and post them here which will do asap.

Agreed as am a little perplexed. Unlike the bottle battery you were working on which showed an under-voltage after charging this one seems to be ok voltage wise showing 41v after a charge, leave the battery a couple of days and it remains fully charged as in it will not take anymore charging from the charger unit which within a few seconds shows a green 'fully charged' light. Though go out for a ride on the bike and in under a mile there has been a low voltage cut-out and its the full leg power only cycle home. Will try get out on the bike today and let the battery cut-out, then come back and open the case and measure the individual voltages via the balance wires and let you know what that throws up. Am curious to see what the results will be. Cheers:)

Very appreciative of your kind input on my battery issues d8veh, cheers:) Had recharged the battery so will nip out on the bike tomorrow weather permitting and as you suggest, let the BMS cut off the power then open the casing and measure the voltage on what looks to be the spare 2nd set of easily accessible balancing wires. Point noted on accessing the cell pack negative pre-BMS once a cut-off has occurred, thanks for the heads-up on that and the other kind tips to make this task more straightforward. Will peel some of the battery wrapping to gain better access and see if I can locate the BMS. I will need to do this anyways if I cannot get voltages from the loose 11 wire connector. Actually, thinking on, it might just be worth removing the battery pack from the casing as currently it is unusable unless it can be repaired as this will give easy access to the cells and BMS. Once I can ascertain how many cells are not performing can make a value judgement on if the pack is saveable. Be nice if it was repairable as dislike the 'it doesn't work, throw it away' way of going on. Having said that, making electrical items very hard to repair/service isn't helping much. Will report back how I get on, thanks once again.

Great thread d8veh, was especially interested in your Battery and BMS layout earlier in the thread. Can I ask a quick newbie question please? My Wisper 905se battery (36v 14ah lithium polymer) will charge though runs out of juice within a few hundred meters triggering the under voltage cut-off having dropped to 17v (from 41v fully charged). I opened up the battery case to see if there was an obvious issue...nothing obvious to be seen though am struggling to locate the BMS unit. There are 11 black wires going into a connector which is taped over which I take to be the balance wires? Though there is nothing connected to this. The battery is still it its blue shrink wrapping, could the BMS be under this? Would appreciate your input please. Oh and Hi everyone...long time reader of this excellent forum, now joined and hopefully able to contribute a little over time:)