The OP asked how to get more people into e-biking.

These people could come from present cyclists wanting a bit of help or non cyclists who want a lot of help.

For the first category, the proportional pedelec is ideal.

For the second group it is a non starter.

The pedalec system on my bike gives full power no matter how hard or slow you pedal.

 

Which one is that? The Panasonic system doesn't and neither does the Bosch or Yamaha. I'd have thought they were the rubbish that power most pedelec systems

 

I never said hub drives were rubbish. Where did you see that in my post

 

You ride a hub power bike and that leads you to say that all pedelec systems are rubbish. So from that premise, I extend it to say that since I ride a pedelec, if I take on your perspective, I must think that all hub bikes are rubbish. It's irony.

 

I don't say anywhere that you think hub bikes are rubbish.

 

On the original point, I think there are four things that would drive up e-bike sales.

 

1. Celebrities seen riding them. If Kate Middleton, Tom Cruise and David Beckham and Stella McCartney were seen regularly riding ebikes, sales would rocket among younger people.

2. lower prices

3. longer range

4. more speed.

 

I don't see any of these coming to fruition in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

things that would drive up e-bike sales.

 

1. Celebrities seen riding them. If Kate Middleton, Tom Cruise and David Beckham and Stella McCartney were seen regularly riding ebikes, sales would rocket among younger people.

 

Yes, that's very effective. A few high image Hollywood stars like DiCaprio owning and driving the Toyoya Prius did wonders for it's sales

A few high image Hollywood stars like DiCaprio owning and driving the Toyoya Prius did wonders for it's sales

 

I hadn't actually thought of Tom Cruise and the Prius as a concrete example but yes, that probably did more for it than Toyota's advertising spend. I doubt that Cruise pays for his Prius - I wonder if they pay him?

 

If Stella McCartney was seen around town sensibly but stylishly dressed, turning up at a fashion show or restaurant and chaining an ebike up outside, what that would do for the image of the things.

 

Years ago I went round to photograph Stirling Moss in his house(s) in Mayfair and he told me never used a car in London, too slow and too hard to park - this 40 years ago!

 

I photographed him with his Vespa scooter scooter outside his house and zipping through traffic and it brought in shoals of letters amazed that such a man would ride a scooter. Must have ramped up Vespas sales in the short term at least.

 

Moss is a man totally unconcerned with 'cool' or image. He was a busy and successful businessman who needed to waste as little time as possible getting around central London. These days with parking problems with two wheelers as well, an e-bike would fulfil the same function but better. But how to get people to appreciate that, that is the question?

Regarding throttles and power delivery: I'm with Jimod on this one. I've said it before on this forum that it makes me wonder if any of the software designers ever actually ride the bikes using their controllers. The lack of being able to travel with minimum or no effort will definitely put off a large percentage of prospective e-bikers, i.e. those that don't want to or are unable to make any effort. Present systems are fine for cyclists that just want help up hills and into the wind or to maintain a slightly higher average speed.

To me the ideal system is one that gives adjustable power as soon as you start pedalling, the power being adjustable between zero and full power by means of a power control knob or panel. Then, the addition of a throttle that can over-ride the pedal control system so that you can travel without pedalling if you want.

If I remember, the Storck Raddar had something similar, but when I rode it, I only used full power for hill-climbing, so I didn't really get a chance to explore it, The Bosch-motored Haibike wasn't bad simply because it gave a lot of power, so you didn't have to pedal very hard, but without throttles, neither would be suitable for unfit non-cyclists.

It seems to me that most of the efforts in the industry seem to be directed towards existing cyclists. They need to think about other target markets. Some have tried with the electric scooter types, but with only a nominal 250watts, they're pretty useless when it comes to hills.

neither would be suitable for unfit non-cyclists.

 

I think you are flogging a dead horse there. Someone so unfit is better served by the present range of cheap to buy, run and insure 50cc scooters.

 

Their overall cost is no greater than running an ebike and they are faster, more comfortable and have unlimited range. Certainly if I become so unfit or overweight as not to be able to pedal at all, I'll ditch the ebike and get a petrol scooter to back up the car.

 

I can see immense advantages in doing so now, as a matter of fact - except that I enjoy cycling.

 

The reason ebikes don't sell in quantity is that they are a niche product. If you are fit you don't need one. If you are unfit, a petrol scooter is better in almost every way - it can even have weather protection.

 

Leaving people like me and you who are not only willing to pedal and pay quite a heavy price for a bit of power assistance but enjoy it too.

 

Anyone who offers a bike with the kind of power you are envisaging will be trying to sell a machine with a very expensive high capacity battery or otherwise a very short range. It's just not practical in my view. The average guy will take one look at the price or the range and see that petrol power is far more practical than the present day and foreseeable future ebike technology.

 

I personally don't mind whether people buy ebikes or not as I'm not a dealer. We neither design or build them in this country so in the end we will accept what our continental and Asian cousins who are still capable of design and manufacture deem we should have. That is the fact of it.

 

My heart is with you but I am afraid my head is not.

Lemmy, either you or I don't understand 'torque sensor systems' My bike is a simple pedal sensor, it senses when I move the pedals, it doesn't care how hard or soft I'm pedaling as long as they're going round. It then works the motor and it will give full power. A torque sensor, as I undestand it, will sense how much pressure you're putting on the pedals and will give power assistance depending on how much you have set it to. I'm sure the Kalkhof has that and gives up to 2 or 2.5 times what you put in.

To get more people onto e-bikes. I believe the simple pedal sensor is the way. As soon as most people hear that they have to put in lots of work they won't want an e-bike.

I never said all pedelec systems were rubbish. I really like mine complete with its hub motor.

 

If I've misunderstood torque sensors then I appologise but I'm only going on what I read on a site about Kalkhoffs.

You are quite correct Jimod, that is how the torque sensors on most crank drive systems and some hub-motor bikes work. In other words, these systems are directly related to the physics of normal cycling, more need is answered by more effort, but jointly from rider and motor. The motor is there to assist the cyclist's contribution, keeping the bike as true to cycling as possible by making the rider's muscles effectively bionic in output.

 

The system you and many others prefer is more moped like in character.

.

Edited December 23, 201114 yr by flecc

Interesting thread Mark and I like your site and the research you're doing, very interesting and useful stuff.

 

In the town where I live in Worcestershire with a 100k population I've only ever seen one other electric bike owner (aged 50+) although I see many cyclists daily of all ages, mostly young men but occasionally women too. I haven't checked, but I doubt there's even a single local seller of e-bikes in my town with the exception of Halfords.

 

People who have seen my bike act as though it's the only electric bike in existence and something I've just "invented" myself!

 

I do think there is a genuine lack of awareness among large sections of the general public about electric bikes still. That said, there is a lot of interest on YouTube with people making videos of their bikes and rides now which is starting to generate more interest. I've had questions and requests from people who have seen my own videos.

 

It feels like the industry is still in its infancy phase even though in reality its been established a while now. Like someone else said, once people see how much fun they are to ride they usually want one. Each customer or ebike owner is effectively an advertisement then for the product. Perhaps the industry should be incentivising "referral" business from customers and looking to grow that way if the money isn't available to do mainstream advertising.

 

Now we are living in economically challenging times I guess its a good opportunity for the industry to get people to swap their cars or use them less, in favour of e-bikes, if businesses can be persuaded to support the cycle to work finance scheme. I know we keep saying it, but I feel the government could be playing a bigger role and giving the industry more help.

I think you are flogging a dead horse there. Someone so unfit is better served by the present range of cheap to buy, run and insure 50cc scooters.

 

Their overall cost is no greater than running an ebike and they are faster, more comfortable and have unlimited range. Certainly if I become so unfit or overweight as not to be able to pedal at all, I'll ditch the ebike and get a petrol scooter to back up the car.

 

Though true in vehicle terms, it's not always true in human terms. The common bogeymen are the needs for a driving licence, CBT, m/c helmet, insurance, MOT and other legal compliances like parking.

 

A high torque e-bike solves all those problems and is often suited to the older people who don't have a suitable licence, don't want complications and don't want to career around at any great speed. If the removal of e-bike power restriction goes ahead, I think that market might expand.

What the industry needs is a real boost like a big contract from Royal Mail or some other corporates..or from the public sector..and maybe wider use by the police and other local services..I heard they're trialling e-bikes in some areas? Or a Christmas present from the government to the industry like VAT off e-bikes or some other tax-break incentive to get people spending cash on them in the new year

I think you are flogging a dead horse there. Someone so unfit is better served by the present range of cheap to buy, run and insure 50cc scooters.

 

Their overall cost is no greater than running an ebike and they are faster, more comfortable and have unlimited range. Certainly if I become so unfit or overweight as not to be able to pedal at all, I'll ditch the ebike and get a petrol scooter to back up the car.

 

I can see immense advantages in doing so now, as a matter of fact - except that I enjoy cycling.

 

The reason ebikes don't sell in quantity is that they are a niche product. If you are fit you don't need one. If you are unfit, a petrol scooter is better in almost every way - it can even have weather protection.

 

Leaving people like me and you who are not only willing to pedal and pay quite a heavy price for a bit of power assistance but enjoy it too.

 

Anyone who offers a bike with the kind of power you are envisaging will be trying to sell a machine with a very expensive high capacity battery or otherwise a very short range. It's just not practical in my view. The average guy will take one look at the price or the range and see that petrol power is far more practical than the present day and foreseeable future ebike technology.

 

I personally don't mind whether people buy ebikes or not as I'm not a dealer. We neither design or build them in this country so in the end we will accept what our continental and Asian cousins who are still capable of design and manufacture deem we should have. That is the fact of it.

 

My heart is with you but I am afraid my head is not.

 

Lenny's observations make sense but in a cold and practical sense... how can you compare a petrol bike to an e-bike though..think of everything you would lose? All the flexibility of e-bikes and the lack of restrictions makes them unique. I guess as an owner though I'm biased and Lenny is putting it across from someone from the point of view of someone with no experience as a simple cost and range decision.

 

I think as flecc said too there is definitely a market between bicycles and petrol bikes where e-bikes can provide a solution that's more accessible and flexible for many people.

Regarding throttles and power delivery: I'm with Jimod on this one. I've said it before on this forum that it makes me wonder if any of the software designers ever actually ride the bikes using their controllers. The lack of being able to travel with minimum or no effort will definitely put off a large percentage of prospective e-bikers, i.e. those that don't want to or are unable to make any effort. Present systems are fine for cyclists that just want help up hills and into the wind or to maintain a slightly higher average speed.

To me the ideal system is one that gives adjustable power as soon as you start pedalling, the power being adjustable between zero and full power by means of a power control knob or panel. Then, the addition of a throttle that can over-ride the pedal control system so that you can travel without pedalling if you want.

If I remember, the Storck Raddar had something similar, but when I rode it, I only used full power for hill-climbing, so I didn't really get a chance to explore it, The Bosch-motored Haibike wasn't bad simply because it gave a lot of power, so you didn't have to pedal very hard, but without throttles, neither would be suitable for unfit non-cyclists.

It seems to me that most of the efforts in the industry seem to be directed towards existing cyclists. They need to think about other target markets. Some have tried with the electric scooter types, but with only a nominal 250watts, they're pretty useless when it comes to hills.

 

 

My bike does pretty much what you describe..I can adjust the pedal assist finely between 6 levels..on the highest level I have to put in hardly any effort just basically make sure the pedals are turning and the motor does all the work even up the steepest of hills...in fact it's hard to keep up with the motor so I keep my gear permanently in 6th

 

There are the legal constraints on manufacturers to consider though in all this discussion.. the legal view of e-bikes as that they should not break out of the pedal-assist model and start behaving like mopeds. But I agree more intelligent controllers and control panels is definitely the way forward to allow more flexible power delivery based on fitness and hill climb etc.

I'm not in sales but if I were, I'd be marketing 3 different ways to 3 different audiences. To lazy old beggers like me I'd be mentioning that the bike will do 15MPH on the flat with me turning the pedals slowly. To more fit/less lazy people of my age who might have been cycling for years I'd market it as a bit of assistance on hills which makes your journey easier and more fun. To commuters I'd mention the fact that a bike can get you through the rush hour and an E-Bike does it without you getting out of breath and sweaty.

 

I love my e-bike and I've been places on it I just wouldn't have gone on a push bike, mostly because I wouldn't be buying a push bike. I've never used my bike on the road in anything less than power level 5, if I had a power level 6 I'd be using that. As I said in a previous post, I don't see the point in me buying an E-bike and then me doing all the work.

 

E-bikes as a concept I think are definitely not niche products as jmod illustrates with the 3-markets approach..and then he added a 4th market, those who want to ride further than would be humanely possible for many of us, to visit new places and explore the countryside etc..

 

I bet there's loads more markets too if you think about how people use bikes and the type of work and jobs people do in particular.

 

Manufacturers can either try and make niche e-bikes for these specific markets, or try and make mass selling "suits everybody" bikes that have maximum flexibility and affordability.

I own a petrol 50cc scooter which i use for work,i have just bought a used e.bike for leisure use and there is no comparison between the two,on the e.bike i just glide along with no noise along cycle paths/river paths etc,on the scooter i am in the same enviroment as i would be in the car.To sum up i feel that the e.bikes future is for leisure use only,scooters for urban commuting,cars for medium to long distances that dont involve cities and trains for long distance inter city journeys.On the continent all these can be integrated but not or never will be in the UK.

The e-bike offers freedom in a way that a petrol bike cannot. At least in the UK. As avronb says above, cycle paths, canal paths etc.

Of course, if you live in London, then maybe in some areas there are few advantages, but where I live there are miles of such paths from which all motor vehicles are banned.

Lenny is putting it across from someone from the point of view of someone with no experience as a simple cost and range decision.

 

Yes, exactly. The thread was about getting more people onto ebikes. I am merely saying that if I were a non-cyclist a small scooter would appear much the better buy. I think some people here don't appreciate the gulf between people who cycle and those who don't. Most people who do not cycle have good reasons for not doing so, among them that it appears dangerous and uncomfortable. There is truth in that. For committed cyclist like us, that is overcome by the tow path factor and so on.

 

Then, most of those who do cycle see no need for electric power. It flies in the face of all the things they like about cycling, simplicity, exercise, lightness of touch and control. In London, the biggest market for cycles, the trend for bikes is for narrow, single gear ultra-lightweight bikes. The absolute antitheses of an ebike.

 

I enjoy riding up tow paths and so on and I don't think anyone would question my enjoyment of ebikes. But they strike me as a niche market. I personally enjoy riding my Brompton more than my ebike, simply on account of its light and nimble performance. It feels more like a proper bicycle than something with batteries bolted to it. At nasty junctions I can just pick it up and walk across them. It swerves and accelerates with ease and its running costs are a big ZERO on an annual basis.

 

Someone mentions it would be good for industry if there were more ebikes. Yes, it would, German, Japanese and Chinese industry. In terms of the country, we are simply looking at more imports of technology we can no longer hack.

 

Then, most of those who do cycle see no need for electric power. It flies in the face of all the things they like about cycling, simplicity, exercise, lightness of touch and control. In London, the biggest market for cycles, the trend for bikes is for narrow, single gear ultra-lightweight bikes. The absolute antitheses of an ebike.

 

Indeed, that ultra-light single speed market has returned in a way never expected a short while ago. The ease of riding a really good light road bike can be a revelation after being on e-bikes for a while. Unfortunately, many of today's cyclists, having grown up with mountain bikes, MTBs, suspension etc, haven't a clue how good a normal bike can be.

The ease of riding a really good light road bike can be a revelation after being on e-bikes for a while

 

A small but sincere compliment, Flecc, it's remarks like that that make your contributions so valuable.

 

It's so easy to slip into a 'this good that bad' mentality and you never come remotely close to doing so. It's an open outlook that many people 50 years younger than you could learn from.

Thanks Lemmy. I've always tried to avoid the innate dangers of age, when young, seeing everything in stark black and white instead of many shades of grey; when old, getting set in one way, aka bigotry.

 

Those twin traps are all too easy to fall into.

The biggest problem with ALL bikes in the uk, pedal, electric and engine is the WEATHER, end off!

The biggest problem with ALL bikes in the uk, pedal, electric and engine is the WEATHER, end off!

 

How very true!

The biggest problem with ALL bikes in the uk, pedal, electric and engine is the WEATHER, end off!

 

Nonsense! Are you telling me that you like to ride in shorts and t shirt on a warm summers day, past singing birds and fluttering butterflies to a glass of ale outside an country pub? You really prefer that to wearing an oversuit, sweaters, thermals, gloves and four pairs of socks in sub zero temperatures on roads covered in black ice into gusting headwinds on dark winter evenings to do the shopping in Tesco's? Surely not!

 

That's what being English is all about. It's what leads to our proud national motto -'Mustn't Grumble'

 

What the industry needs is a real boost like a big contract from Royal Mail

Something like this, in fact which I snapped just outside Paris while Bromptoning around the area in the summer. I am afraid our PO does not have the vision to take up anything so, as they would see it, unconventional.

http://www.dthorpe.net/viewing/poste.jpg

The Royal Mail did plan on buying some 16,000 e-bikes and put out inquiries for tender both here and in Germany. They appeared to be favouring the German post bike.

 

However, the future methods of working they've eventually settled upon meant the e-bikes would not be suitable so they cancelled those plans. I happen to think they were right, since the trends in mail are making bike use less and less suitable.

I happen to think they were right, since the trends in mail are making bike use less and less suitable.

 

Right. If the French and Germans have invested in them, I wonder what is so different about UK mail trends?

 

Just musing but I wonder what would be the effect on ebike sales if batteries and wiring could be completely hidden in the frame and the motors were made as unobtrusive as utterly possible so that without close examination you wouldn't know it was an electric bike? I'm not speculating on whether it can be practically done but what the effect on sales would be if it were?

 

We're always taking about more power....what about less, minimum battery size, minimum motor size weight and complexity just to give a boost on hills? With the only control being an on/off button.

 

That might bring in more new ebikers than trying to sell more of what in general they don't want as we are trying to do now.