Every time a shop closes, it re opens as a shop with a foreign name selling foreign foods and alcohol.

 

That's happend here, where I live. The local flower shop closed down and re-opened as a Polish Shop. Strangely, there is not a single tin of polish to be seen. The place is full of sausages with strange sounding names.

As you all know, Lincolnshire has always been a back water. My father, for instance only went out of Lincolnshire once in his life. So all this migration into Boston has been a massive culture shock. I do not see myself as racist. My problem is that we have lost the essential "Englishness" of the place. We had a culture here of good manners, as in "after you sir" and "ladies first". That has all gone, and been replaced by every man for himself, and survival of the fittest. Every time a shop closes, it re opens as a shop with a foreign name selling foreign foods and alcohol. Every park bench, even at 7 oclock in the morning, seems to be occupied by immigrants with cans of beer in their hands. The empty cans are just thrown on the ground. The local councils answer is to remove park benches. Public urination and spitting and vomiting pass for acceptable behavior.

I suppose I should follow official advice, and "enjoy the enrichment of my culture".

 

The decisions that brought about what isn't liked date back hundreds of years, i.e. countries like ours deciding to invade others around the world and later the inventions of modern sea and air transport. So there's been plenty of warning from before we were all born and we can't just opt out of what we created in the first place. We were instrumental in making it one world and the clock can't be turned back.

 

Switzerland mentioned before as a desirable example amuses me, wholly populated by the peoples of three nations using four languages with many residents from other parts of the world. They are very multicultural.

That's happend here, where I live. The local flower shop closed down and re-opened as a Polish Shop. Strangely, there is not a single tin of polish to be seen. The place is full of sausages with strange sounding names.

 

I doubt Poland invaded the flower shop. No doubt it closed because all the English people didn't use it enough. Best be thankful that immigrants have kept it as a viable retail outlet instead of it being empty and creating an undesirable unwanted image to that area, leading to it's decline.

Mumbling as a lapsed Marxist and undecided Atheist I can't see what all this fuss about immigrants is, erm, about. My family is a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, French, Dutch and Indian. Even worse, my parents had a mixed marriage - dad was Lancastrian and mum was Cestrian. Most of my friends are African/Muslim, others are Quaker or lapsed Catholics. We're still one of the richest nations on the planet - most of us know where we'll sleep tomorrow night, have a bit of cash in our pockets and have received some sort of education. If we're ill the doctor checks our pulse, not our credit card. We even have some semblance of democracy, though how this lot came to power goodness only knows. Rant ove. I'll ask nurse if there's any cake left ... IO could go on about bike batteries if asked? No? Cake it is then!

I dont know....it doesnt matter what the topic is you are always looking for that nurse.....mind you.... cake is better than the usual medicine.....bit of moist carrot cake will do me nicely thankyou :D

 

Lynda

Likewise Tom, I'm from the immediate past an Anglo/Scot Italian with French branches of the family and with recent marrying in of Jewish faith and West Indian background people.

Does anyone know if UKIP's views are incompatible with forum membership?

Thought I better check.

Hahaa, you are trying to 'foster' a disputation ? ,

beware this thread may need to be 'taken into care' :)

 

It is a libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union

If that is all they are then I would vote for them, sadly they pretend to be a mainstream political party with a prospect, so they feel the need to have policies on all other aspects of our society and quite frankly they are totally bonkers in many of those other social interactions !

 

My advice to them would be - stick to one policy, if elected to then hold a referendum on EU membership, and to then resign and force a general election shortly after.

The result of that referendum would then force the hand of any other political party to vow to uphold the referendum result.

UKIP might not be the eventual party in power (phew! 5 years of them?! gosh, no way) but they would most likely achieve their desire - withdraw from the EU !!

 

On a similar theme -

I think England should hold a referendum on independence from the UK,

we should do this before Scotland has its ref.

that way it would leave Scotland and NI holding the baby !

Edited November 26, 201213 yr by Ptarmigan

Likewise Tom, I'm from the immediate past an Anglo/Scot Italian with French branches of the family and with recent marrying in of Jewish faith and West Indian background people.

 

Agree; years ago I entered into a debate with representatives of the B.N.P. who were advocating 'England for the English'. I asked them how they defined 'English' and offered as an example my mongrel pedigree. I think I failed the test!

Happy e-biking!

Tom

I can't agree with any attempt to draw a parrallel with what is happening now and the historical imigration trends of this country which go back hundreds of years. They are two completely different entities and there are no similarities.

 

Public services such as health care, education, justice, welfare and social services are currently stretched and working at a capacity way beyond their intended maximum. As a result of this, these organisations are unable to provide the level service which people have a right to expect. We are also facing the prospect of not having sufficient energy for the population in the very near future. The simple reason for this is that there are too many people living here, nothing else. The population of the country is expanding at a dangerous and unsustainable rate. Our present imigration policy, if there actually is one, can only serve to hasten the degradation of our services and infrastructure.

 

The migrant workers that I have come across seem to have a fantastic work ethic and quite frankly shame many of the indigenous population with their attitude towards work. Another phrase which is often quoted, "migrant workers do the jobs which British workers don't want to do." This is very true and not only that, many do it with enthusiasm. But what an appalling state of affairs this is. Think about it. Importing foreign human beings to do the jobs which we, the indigenous population, consider demeaning or beneath us is awful and will breed a deep rooted, seething resentment. It will come back to haunt us. We are doing no one any favours here.

 

The usual retort to silence people who voice these opinions is to either brand them a racist or to point out the fact that their ancestors are probably immigrants. Both are nonsense and highlight the fact that there is no logical counter argument to the fact that our present imigration free for all is at best, a very bad thing for all concerned or at worst a latent horror.

Define a immigrant ? or to be more preicse which immigrants do we draw the line at ? Also do we include descendants or just the immigrant ?. If we go back far enough there would be no one left at all

 

This country has always thrived by making use of immigrants. whats changed now to make us think this is no longer a good idea (Actually a dumb question as we have never liked them even when we need them).

Define a immigrant ? or to be more preicse which immigrants do we draw the line at ?

 

Any more entering the country after a near future date ( a line in the sand if you like). It's too late and it would be unfair to require anyone who has already entered the country legally to leave now.

Define a immigrant

 

Me and the wife.

 

Having had enough of W.London we emigrated in a northerly direction

I can't agree with any attempt to draw a parrallel with what is happening now and the historical imigration trends of this country which go back hundreds of years. They are two completely different entities and there are no similarities.

 

Public services such as health care, education, justice, welfare and social services are currently stretched and working at a capacity way beyond their intended maximum. As a result of this, these organisations are unable to provide the level service which people have a right to expect. We are also facing the prospect of not having sufficient energy for the population in the very near future. The simple reason for this is that there are too many people living here, nothing else. The population of the country is expanding at a dangerous and unsustainable rate. Our present imigration policy, if there actually is one, can only serve to hasten the degradation of our services and infrastructure.

 

The migrant workers that I have come across seem to have a fantastic work ethic and quite frankly shame many of the indigenous population with their attitude towards work. Another phrase which is often quoted, "migrant workers do the jobs which British workers don't want to do." This is very true and not only that, many do it with enthusiasm. But what an appalling state of affairs this is. Think about it. Importing foreign human beings to do the jobs which we, the indigenous population, consider demeaning or beneath us is awful and will breed a deep rooted, seething resentment. It will come back to haunt us. We are doing no one any favours here.

 

The usual retort to silence people who voice these opinions is to either brand them a racist or to point out the fact that their ancestors are probably immigrants. Both are nonsense and highlight the fact that there is no logical counter argument to the fact that our present imigration free for all is at best, a very bad thing for all concerned or at worst a latent horror.

 

 

Well, my mam and I (lol) are sat here agreeing with every word tillson......and the crux of the matter is as long as we pay benefits at the level which encourages the population of this country NOT to work this problem can only get worse.

I am very definitely NOT a rascist in any way, its nothing to do with rascism, the simple fact is that if more people who are already here, were forced to work there would be NO work available to encourage more immigrants to enter this country......along with, of course, not paying out benefits hand over fist to anyone who comes looking.

It is totally crazy to allow this to happen, we need a political party who are strong enough to put a stop to this before it gets any worse...this is crucial to the welfare of our country.

 

When I moved to Spain we had to prove that we had enough money in the bank to support ourselves if we were retiring or whilst looking for work if we were younger, before being allowed to stay there, also we had no rights to any benefits at all until we had been paying into the system for a certain amount of time.

If you cant afford to support yourselves why should any country allow anyone to enter and become a drain on their system......we are mad to allow it to happen

 

When are we going to wake up to this and when are we going to get a political party with the guts to change things whilst there is still time.

 

Lynda

Ukip maybe a one issue Party who's sole purpose is to remove Britain from the EU, its ambitions are to firstly force a referendum which has been denied by successive goverments, as they fear the possible outcome.

Clearily there is support within the Tory party and to a lesser extent within the labour party, unite those forces under one banner then there could be a new politcal force which i have no doubt Ukip would be part of, rather than become a sole ruling party. I hope one day that we can all have a vote on the matter and let the people decide, democracy would be the winner, irrespective of the outcome.

a debate with representatives of the B.N.P.

Debate and BNP, isnt that an oxymoron ?

I can't agree with any attempt to draw a parrallel with what is happening now and the historical imigration trends of this country which go back hundreds of years. They are two completely different entities and there are no similarities.

 

I certainly wasn't doing that. I'm speaking of parents and grandparents from other countries, not hundreds of years of history. Too many English people live in a dream world believing that most around them are English going back hundreds of years, the truth being that immigration has been a continuous large scale process making a high proportion recently mongrel. You should also take into account the huge numbers of the English who have left in recent decades. London alone has been losing over 200,000 people every year for around a decade, mostly English, many going to other countries and being replaced in London by immigrants, keeping our population fairly constant but with slight growth. How do you feel about the huge numbers of the English who move abroad to live, is that ok but the other way round not ok?

 

there is no logical counter argument to the fact that our present imigration free for all is at best, a very bad thing for all concerned or at worst a latent horror.

 

Do you believe we have some sort of God given right to a better life that other human beings? If not, consider what happens if all borders are open worldwide. What happens is that the process of chasing the best prospects eventually results in a world where we all have equal prospects and living standards and population densities gradually even out. These immigrants from much warmer countries really don't enjoy living in our cold, wet climate and when given an economic chance quickly move back to where they feel more at home. In a similar vein large numbers of Poles who've failed to find consistent work here have been taking advantage of a coach service now provided to take them back home.

 

And a little footnote to all about those Northern Europeans who have been pouring in. It was that archetypal, cricket loving Englishman John Major who fought hard within Europe to enlarge the EU to include the old Warsaw Pact countries in the union. Many of the mainland EU countries were not very keen on them entering, illustrating once again that care should be taken when apportioning blame for change.

.

Edited November 26, 201213 yr by flecc

Debate and BNP, isnt that an oxymoron ?

 

I have to confess - it did attract quite a crowd in the town centre ...

 

Tom

I certainly wasn't doing that. I'm speaking of parents and grandparents from other countries, not hundreds of years of history. Too many English people live in a dream world believing that most around them are English going back hundreds of years, the truth being that immigration has been a continuous large scale process making a high proportion recently mongrel.

 

I think most people are aware of this, but immigration has never been at the level we have seen over recent years. There is no dream, it's a stark reality that the country can't sustain the immigration fuelled population expansion that we are currently experiencing. The country's infrastructure and services are buckling under the strain. A percentage of the immigrants coming into the country are unable to financially support themselves or their families and as a result have to depend on welfare benefits. At the same time, people who have lived in this country all of their lives, people who have worked and paid taxes for 50 years are being told that their retirement plans are now in tatters because there is no money left in the welfare system to pay their pensions. There has to be some correlation here.

 

You should also take into account the huge numbers of the English who have left in recent decades. London alone has been losing over 200,000 people every year for around a decade, mostly English, many going to other countries and being replaced in London by immigrants, keeping our population fairly constant but with slight growth.

 

More people have come to live in this country than have left to live in another country. The population has been swelled by immigration.

 

How do you feel about the huge numbers of the English who move abroad to live, is that ok but the other way round not ok?

 

It's up to the countries where these people have chosen to reside to decide. If a particular country closed its boarders because they were worried about the detrimental effect of mass immigration, I would accept that with a hint of envy that our own government were not doing the same. The same, if a country imposed a certain level of employability value or personal wealth before allowing entry.

 

 

Do you believe we have some sort of God given right to a better life that other human beings?

 

No. I believe that we should provide help, support and opportunity to other human beings and do it to the best of our abilities. This does not extend to shovelling money into the pockets of the lazy or those who choose not to take advantage of opportunity (native or immigrant). What we certainly should not do is provide a something for nothing free for all.

 

If not, consider what happens if all borders are open worldwide. What happens is that the process of chasing the best prospects eventually results in a world where we all have equal prospects and living standards and population densities gradually even out.

 

I think what happens in reality is that people chase what they believe are better prospects and pay gang masters to get them to where they believe the better prospects exist. A percentage then end up being sold into slavery or prostitution. A horrible situation. Much better we put up the No Entry sign, have very secure boarders and remove any false hope.

Edited November 26, 201213 yr by tillson

I agree with much of what you say Tillson, we definitely are over-populated and nationally currently have more immigrants than emigrants, though probably not historically. I also agree about the dependency culture that the welfare state has brought about, instead of the safety net it was supposed to be.

 

But we can't go back in time, to get back to what you would like is not just a matter of puttig up no entry signs. Much as you might not acknowledge it, the problems are historical. Joining the EU brought with it acceptance responsibilities and chinks in our borders, our old empire still brings responsibilities as does the commonwealth. And of course the biggest elephant in the room is globalisation and all of it's implications, controlled not in any way by us but by the USA's insistence on it's existence.

 

We'd need to get out of Europe to truly get control of our borders, but as I observed elsewhere to Morphix, that would leave us much poorer, since when we joined we abandoned our old trading partners to their disgust and they won't be coming back. Leaving the EU would really upset the USA too, the "special relationship" would soon look very flaky. The best outcome we could hope for out of the EU is a poor man's version of Switzerland, and then you really would see old peoples pensions suffer and state cutbacks on a huge scale. It would of course prompt many immigrants to abandon ship then!

Population Densities per sq.km:

UK = 244

USA = 31

israel = 309

Greece = 81

The Gambia = 149

Somalia = 14

Malta = 1,277

 

Take your pick; nice and warm in Somalia at this time of year ... any takers? Not much of a problem with immigrants.

Tom

Shows we aren't as overcrowded as some imagine. As I remarked earlier, we still have plenty of space but perversely choose to crowd together in confined areas giving a false impression. Not just our problem of course, it's true of countries all over the world.

Shows we aren't as overcrowded as some imagine. As I remarked earlier, we still have plenty of space but perversely choose to crowd together in confined areas giving a false impression. Not just our problem of course, it's true of countries all over the world.

 

The whole point flecc is that we may have the SPACE for them.....but we dont have the MONEY to support them all......

 

Get those long term skivers into work...any work... stop giving them enough money in benefits to allow them to lounge around at the expense of the real hard grafters of this country of which there are still many.....but the percentage is getting lower year by year...it has to stop......SOON

 

People need to learn that it is their responsibility to provide for their families....NOT the governments.....benefits are there to protect those truly in need, not to support a generation who seem to think the world owes them a living.

 

We seem to have a generation who expect to be supported from cradle to grave.

 

Lynda

The whole point flecc is that we may have the SPACE for them.....but we dont have the MONEY to support them all......

 

Get those long term skivers into work...any work... stop giving them enough money in benefits to allow them to lounge around at the expense of the real hard grafters of this country of which there are still many.....but the percentage is getting lower year by year...it has to stop......SOON

 

People need to learn that it is their responsibility to provide for their families....NOT the governments.....benefits are there to protect those truly in need, not to support a generation who seem to think the world owes them a living.

 

We seem to have a generation who expect to be supported from cradle to grave.

 

Lynda

 

I agree Lynda, we're FAR TOO SOFT and have created this "something for nothing" culture in UK that attracts people from far and wide here. I live above people in my flat who just live one long daily party on welfare, blowing their welfare on drugs and booze. This situation shouldn't be allowed to have continued for so long..and it's directly linked to most of the anti-social behaviour problems communities face. People get locked into this poverty trap created by Labour of just living on welfare and don't see any future for themselves, and the government just leaves them be.

 

The government says its going to reform benefits and crack down on people who abuse them who can work. For a start, stop calling it BENEFITS and making it so easy to get on them. I think as you say, people should have to WORK or contribute something to their communities to be eligible for social welfare, unless they're genuinely physically or mentally disabled. Even old people retired are working and doing their bit, yet we have lazy sods who think the country owes them something and to whom work is an alien concept.

 

No wonder our public spending is spiralling out of control. Major crack down required. Some have suggested making social welfare restricted to only allowing buying food and paying utility bills, household items etc, I think that's a good idea, or at least preventing it being used to buy alcohol, cigs and drugs by putting the money on a special card which only certain outlets will accept.

 

Then there's well-off families who claim working tax credits/child tax credits who don't really need them. That needs to be means tested. Some rich retired people with private pensions or considerable wealth even get generous state pensions they don't really need.

 

If I was in charge, I'd shave billions off that welfare bill and put a LOT of people into productive community work or work training, give them the option of that or paid national service. I think many would soon find a regular paying job or being self-employed a more attractive proposition.

 

Another thing too.. I read a report suggesting most of the cost on NHS A&E emergencies and hospital services is alcohol or cigarette related. Why not make these people pay for their treatment? Especially binge drinkers and the youngsters! They'd wouldn't do it if they faced a £150 A&E bill every time or a bigger bill for surgery ;-)

 

The next thing that needs tackling too is this corporate and rich people tax-avoidance scams,right under the governments nose. Companies like Amazon, Tesco, Starbucks, eBay etc. registering off-shore companies to avoid UK VAT and even corporation tax. Off-shore companies and trust funds for wealthy individuals who minimise their tax and avoid paying their fair share, yet enjoy all the benefits of the UK economy. I can't understand how or why the gov has turned a blind eye to these activities for so long and doesn't crack down on them.

 

Ok rant over!

Edited November 26, 201213 yr by morphix

To my mind we have the luxury of choice - 'they' don't. We can, of course, pull up the drawbridge and plug our ears.

We can accept whoever lands on our beaches. Many will tackle a dangerous and difficult journey with great courage.

We can accept the 'deserving' and throw back the 'undeserving' - good Victorian practice.

Or we can look for ways of helping people enjoy their own countries - direct help with health and education and trade. Of course it will cost - letting people starve is the cheap option. J & I put our money where our hearts are. We fund education and supply medical materials to a couple of West African villages - and every flight out to The Gambia has its quota of similar people doing the same.

The town we live in here in England (Land of the free!) grew rich on the by-products of the slave trade. Not by dealing in slaves but by manufacturing trading goods, by supplying copper sheeting to protect the hulls of the slave-traders ships from attacks by sea worms. We traded cotton - we didn't get our hands soiled with the blood of slaves of course. Not directly. I doubt if there was a family in the county that didn't benefit in some way. I can't not help.

Rant on hold.

Tom

To my mind we have the luxury of choice - 'they' don't. We can, of course, pull up the drawbridge and plug our ears.

We can accept whoever lands on our beaches. Many will tackle a dangerous and difficult journey with great courage.

We can accept the 'deserving' and throw back the 'undeserving' - good Victorian practice.

Or we can look for ways of helping people enjoy their own countries - direct help with health and education and trade. Of course it will cost - letting people starve is the cheap option. J & I put our money where our hearts are. We fund education and supply medical materials to a couple of West African villages - and every flight out to The Gambia has its quota of similar people doing the same.

The town we live in here in England (Land of the free!) grew rich on the by-products of the slave trade. Not by dealing in slaves but by manufacturing trading goods, by supplying copper sheeting to protect the hulls of the slave-traders ships from attacks by sea worms. We traded cotton - we didn't get our hands soiled with the blood of slaves of course. Not directly. I doubt if there was a family in the county that didn't benefit in some way. I can't not help.

Rant on hold.

Tom

 

I agree Tom.. I don't think the UK can, or is even in a position to, just help everyone who come from poor countries. I sympathise with their plight, but we have to think of the needs and interest of our own country and people too. There has to be clear limits and only very exceptional cases should be granted asylum. Most of these people pass across several safe countries to get to UK and we have no legal obligation under international law to even accept them.

 

I agree with your comment that perhaps we'd be better off using these massive "foreign development aid" contributions we make, billions every year... to directly assist these very poor countries in very practical projects that help support the British economy and growth in these poor countries so they can support themselves rather rely on handouts or just abandon their countries. The British Commonwealth is a huge opportunity I think, for the UK and UK industry to work with poor parts of the world, and invest in them. Projects like the solar power program in north Africa etc. Obviously there are challenges some of these parts of the world are very war torn and unstable politically, but the UK has the resources to move people around the commonwealth and it could be worked out as the commonwealth has good close working relations. Like a modern day empire ;-)

 

America has successfully created it's global corporate empire by investing and expanding all over the world.

 

NOTE: There is a project (kiva.org) someone setup on the web which aims to directly assist the poorest people in the world who need money to improve their lives and work. It's a great idea, as the loans are very low interest and flexible, so people can pay them back over a longer period and they have regional people on the ground to assess people and support them. It has transformed many lives and allowed people to establish successful businesses or get training to find jobs etc. Some individuals in UK and in rich countries (and companies) form "lending consortiums" to pool their money and choose to focus on specific countries, or industry areas etc. This is more effective than governments just giving millions to dodgy governments that doesn't really benefit poor people.

Edited November 26, 201213 yr by morphix