February 3, 201313 yr I am reading the Times at the moment,there is a review of the latest Honda CBF125 motorcycle....looking at the content of this bike with its engine,gearbox,4pot caliper brakes,fairings,fuel tank,lights,indicators,exhaust etc all put together in a teenage attractive package....128kgs for £2600. Compare that with almost any high end ebike which is basically a windscreen wiper motor hung between a simple frame with simple brakes .....25kgs for £2700. I just don't get it. Dave Kudoscycles
February 3, 201313 yr I just don't get it. Volume production for the world wide market rather than nich ?
February 3, 201313 yr I am reading the Times at the moment,there is a review of the latest Honda CBF125 motorcycle....looking at the content of this bike with its engine,gearbox,4pot caliper brakes,fairings,fuel tank,lights,indicators,exhaust etc all put together in a teenage attractive package....128kgs for £2600. Compare that with almost any high end ebike which is basically a windscreen wiper motor hung between a simple frame with simple brakes .....25kgs for £2700. I just don't get it. Dave Kudoscycles Laura has been saying the exact same thing to me for about the past 6 months. (she is a friend who likes to argue about things). In this though I have some sympathy with her view. I might add that one can also purchase a 2002 Yamaha R1 with 152bhp for less than both the vehicles you mention. The world is a strange place.
February 3, 201313 yr Supply and demand? Motor bikes sell by the million, ebikes by the hundreds, I suppose. Ebikes still lack the reliable home & back range of motor bikes. Motor bikes will carry a passenger. Some motor bikes even keep their value (I sold my last bike, a BMW R45 for more than its cost price when I came to sell it about 20 years later.) My neighbour bought a Chinese 125cc scooter for about £1200 twelve months ago. It transports him to work ( about 40km away ) daily through our wet summer and horrible winter without fault. My Honda C90, sold to a friend yonks ago, still plods on. The value of our beloved bikes lies elsewhere. Ebikes swop 'Value for money' for 'value the grins per mile', I would suggest. May the ewind be ever at your back! Tom '
February 3, 201313 yr ...and who has not considered a stunning scooter by Honda for less than £2000 ? If getting from A to B were my perogotive It'd be my way to go. In my case I just want a little exercise, I don't realy want to go anywhere.
February 3, 201313 yr As others say, volume of production, and also the clearly defined competition which makes prices more competitive. Motorbikes are much more easily compared in bands by capacity and type. E-bikes have no settled types of appearance, motor positions, voltages, bike specifications etc. This confused picture makes some wild price variations possible which only add to prospective purchaser's confusion.
February 3, 201313 yr Author Whilst i understand the production volumes having an effect,the volumes of ebikes should have grown out of a niche market, but I think Flecc has nailed it...the ebike is an evolving business -technology and styles are changing at such a rate that no particular type has been settled upon to allow volume production of that type and the components within. Dave Kudoscycles
February 3, 201313 yr Whilst i understand the production volumes having an effect,the volumes of ebikes should have grown out of a niche market But have they. Motorbikes as with cars have evolved into a few big players with massive volumes compared to bike manufacturers (even most Chinese bikes are made under license hondas,suzukis and yamahas). For some reason bicycles (and even more so e-bikes) seem to have a very large number of totally independent manufacturers producing small runs and hence cant be made as cheap. Not sure why this is as it is completely different to nearly every other really mature product where over time the number of manufacturers has reduced.
February 3, 201313 yr "..the ebike is an evolving business -technology and styles are changing at such a rate that no particular type has been settled upon to allow volume production of that type and the components within." Come on Dave. You sell perfectly good bikes yourself - a half decent mountain bike with half decent brakes, motor and battery - what's the big deal here? There is no new technology, that is just marketing bull**** again. Market them properly and halve the price and soon you will find yourselves breaking even again. The UK ebike market is absurdly cost-prohibitive for most. The bicycle market here is dominated by component snobs. best wishes h.
February 3, 201313 yr Market them properly and halve the price and soon you will find yourselves breaking even again. The UK ebike market is absurdly cost-prohibitive for most. The bicycle market here is dominated by component snobs. best wishes h. Bicycle prices are absolutely bonkers for what they are - I initially thought eBikes were a racket until I looked at a half-decent bicycle and realized the whole bike market is priced up way more than it warrants for what it is. Component prices are astronomic as anyone who tries to cost out building pretty much any bicycle other than a hybrid commuter up knows (unless they've been looking at places other than I have) ... a nice frame at 50% off and groupset parts on special offer and then try to pop some decent hydraulic brakes in you're still into the thousands and likely more than a 2012 sale bike or average eBike before you've even thought about electrics.... and there is plenty of demand for bicycles so it's not down to volumes it's down to astronomic supply chain mark-ups. Scooters / mopeds are better value for money by miles and can be run on next to nowt over shortish distances (last time I hired a 125cc scooter I used 0.60Euros of fuel in a day going the same sort of distances I'd go on an eBike in that time). It's only the TAX, licencing and insurance which make it costly to own one, but there are no batteries to replace. What they don't give you is exercise and they don't give people who aren't allowed to ride them for whatever reason freedom. People who sit in either category are left to choose between a regular bike or an eBike.... or wind up waiting for the local bus. Many would pay a fair amount not to have to do the latter ..
February 3, 201313 yr Certainly, the economies of scale of mass production will play a large part in the price differentials of motorcycles and ebikes. However, I suspect that dealer margins and distributor profit form a much larger percentage of the final retail cost. I guess this is driven by anticipated cash turnover and the number of items likely to be sold. Wages, cost of premises, business rates and general overheads are likely to represent a far greater proportion of gross sales value. I know that quite often, a new £10,000 motorcycle may be sold with a retail profit of only a few hundred pounds or less. Any shortfall will be made up from volume of sales and bonus payments made to the retailer by the manufacturer based on sales numbers against target levels. There is also the likely ongoing income from clothing and accessories, servicing and parts sales, which in the case of ebikes is unlikely to be a reliable income stream. As well as the economies of scale of mass production, there are economies of distribution. It would likely be much cheaper to import an ebike if you could fill a whole ship with them, and be confident they will all be sold in short order. Lastly, there is the "Market Price" factor. Most products will be sold at the maximum price that the manufacturer believes the market will pay, regardless of cost of manufacture. After all, why sell an ebike for "£x" if the market is happy to pay "£y"?
February 3, 201313 yr I can't say that I have researched the subject thoroughly, but whilst browsing around Carrefour in Marrakech recently............like you do, I came across these Chinese clones of the legendary Honda Cub, converted to Sterling the price is £604:eek: I have no idea if they comply with EU regulations, but I saw thousands of them wizzing around Morroco, just like they do all over the Far East and usually laden with an entire family. In contrast there were just as many Yamahas of a similar design, but with a horrible two stroke motor belching clouds of smoke. The phrase cheap as chips comes to mind. [ATTACH]4997.vB[/ATTACH][ATTACH]4998.vB[/ATTACH]
February 3, 201313 yr A lot of it comes down to price for something that looks like a glorified pushbike . Motorcycles have been around a long time and if looked after will outlast cycles . My Suzuki X7 and Suzuki Roadie 50 are 31 years old and my modern Aprilia Leonardo 250 is a mere 10 years old . All have needed over time replacement lead acid batteries ranging in price from £12 to £40 , obviously apart from petrol and oil . Contrast that with the price of replacement batteries for Ebikes ranging from £200 to £500 after as little as 3 years . Whereas most Motorcycle Owners can fettle their machines , Ebikes are the unknown with little support , the Electronics especially . Woosh Bikes and Kudos bikes with their reasonable replacement battery prices and Probike with their Servicing claims might help buck the trend . If someone tried to sell me an Electric Car and mentioned that the replacement battery pack was £12,000 , he would have a hard time convincing me , especially if the new car price was £30,000 plus . This is what Ebike sellers are up against .
February 3, 201313 yr Petrol. Petrol. Petrol. If ebikes needed petrol they would be cheaper to buy. Multinationals, venture capitalists, stock brokers, bankers and Conservative politicians (oh and the OFT of course) are all in it together...... bit like cereal and milk, cheese and biscuits or condoms and venereal diseases
February 3, 201313 yr If ebikes needed petrol they would be cheaper to buy. I'm pretty sure you're right there wissy. Silly thing is though a scooter uses so little petrol and you can fill it up from a jerry can in the garage - it's very hard not to think it's all a conspiracy. After all, with an eBike you're buying all your fuel up front in the form of a battery and still use some electricity which they get tax off ... but I guess they can't tax those quite as much !
February 3, 201313 yr Interesting pictures John of Chinese built Honda 50/90 clones in Morocco . Riders of Yeovil have the nearest to that . They have 50cc and 110cc models which are very nicely finished and of course are Chinese . In the crate are £925 and fully built are £1250 OTR . The details and pictures are on their site . For past Honda 50/90 Owners it will be a sight for sore eyes ! In the flesh they look better than the originals .
February 4, 201313 yr Because I want to pedal my bike and enjoy it, but have some assistance when I need it, it's as simple as that. So for me e bikes are better value than motorbikes and so much more pleasure. Edited February 4, 201313 yr by johnc461165
February 4, 201313 yr Author I am not going to make any friends in the bicycle industry with this posting but I must say I find the prices of some of these high end sports bikes absolutely bonkers. Walking round the sports cycle section of the London Excel Cycle Show I found the snobbery of some of these high end salesman amazing,ITS A PUSH BIKE!!!! I think there is an element of 'my bike costs more than your bike so I am superior to you',syndrome-the UK Cycles guy (whatever that is,is it a magazine?)was so up himself in trying to keep electric bikes off the track mixing with 'my wonderful Pinarellos or Specialized' It so reminds me back in my Ford days that we used to badge engineer every car...a basic Fiesta with a bit more trim and a couple of cheap extras and a Ghia badge on the back,costs £500 more, a nice little earner!!! The high end sports bike has become a marketing mans dream....just look through the descriptions of some of these products .....Magnesium RST Vita Hydraulic Suspension forks with lockout.....Xtasy black anodise alloy riser bars with ergo support grips...Pinarello RoKh Ultegra Di2 SM Elec 10S. It strikes me that the more suffixes you can add to these descriptions you can justify charging just a few thousand euros more. Kudos's latest model is the Stealth SF12-XCM-MLO,Auriga e-comp hyd 180,TCM Pulse Drive-that should be good for at least £3k..... Dave Kudoscycles
February 4, 201313 yr I want one of those Dave , but at £3,000 it`s a bit cheap and therefore can`t be much good ?
February 4, 201313 yr The high end sports bike has become a marketing mans dream....just look through the descriptions of some of these products .....Magnesium RST Vita Hydraulic Suspension forks with lockout.....Xtasy black anodise alloy riser bars with ergo support grips...Pinarello RoKh Ultegra Di2 SM Elec 10S. A decent set of forks I can understand charging a couple of hundred more for, and looked at ergo support grips - the ones with ergo risers are quite nice actually for about £50. It's the Ultegra Di2 which has become the new shifting system fad (electric) and most bikes with this come in about £1k more. Despite the fact that if your battery goes on your shifting system you're a bit stuffed. Wonder whether it will last lol. On the plus side the bikes with Ultegra 6700/6750 which were £1k more about 18 months ago (it's a lovely system) are now ... definitely ... not ... and 2nd hand prices will be driven down commensurately this year (even though sellers are having trouble accepting this it seems and some buyers are in for a bit of a shock when they trade on in a year's time I think). When a groupset alone is £1250 with 25% discount it's not hard to see what is driving up prices of push-bikes aside from the silly prices of most carbon frames (even 2nd hand ones which have been through heaven knows what abuse) : Shimano Ultegra Di2 Compact Groupset Gloss Grey Internal Cable But this is where I get narked by some of the eBike prices. There are no £1,000 Rohloff hub gears, £1.5k groupsets or £1 - £2k carbon / Titanium frames on the underlying bikes in most cases to let you see what's actually costing. Rather there are often hybrid-style or lower-end MTB shifting systems which cost peanuts - you can get Tourney on a £200 bike FHS, £80 brakes and a basic groupset because you've got a £60 freewheel. Some Deore XT versions are very affordable now as components (but they are often seen on top-end bikes which you'd think would have XTR at those prices - but very few eBikes have XTR (probably some out there but I've never clocked them). So somewhere along the line someone is cashing in big time - and in the eBike market it's probably Bosch. For a system which is so widely used the economies of scale must be enormous and they must be seriously cleaning up.
February 4, 201313 yr So somewhere along the line someone is cashing in big time - and in the eBike market it's probably Bosch. For a system which is so widely used the economies of scale must be enormous and they must be seriously cleaning up. So no change there, ever looked at Bosch prices for their other products? They often even import cheap Oriental and Italian makes of domestic electricals, stick the Bosch name on and price OTT. And as for their battery prices................
February 4, 201313 yr just look through the descriptions of some of these products .....Magnesium RST Vita Hydraulic Suspension forks with lockout.....Xtasy black anodise alloy riser bars with ergo support grips...Pinarello RoKh Ultegra Di2 SM Elec 10S. I find that simple ignorance can be a great money-saver - I haven't a clue what most of the above are! Best wishes, Tom (wallet firmly in pocket)
February 4, 201313 yr So no change there, ever looked at Bosch prices for their other products? They often even import cheap Oriental and Italian makes of domestic electricals, stick the Bosch name on and price OTT. And as for their battery prices................ Indeed - and back full-circle to my comment on another thread to the effect that having seen how rubbish some of their other products are in domestic electricals when I first started looking at eBikes in the non-kit market, I wrote anything with that Brand involved off as a no-go area. With a manufacturer into so many different things obviously you can't necessarily draw balnket assumptions but if they are capable of these practices in one area then I wouldn't trust them in another. The "you get what you pay for" and "buy cheap buy twice" assumptions does not hold these days in many areas ... you get cheap stuff in both expensive and cheap products and some expensive products fall over even faster than their cheaper competitors. Also translates as "most of what you buy nowadays is a load of junk" lol. Mistrustful as I am of large corporations, default position is big brand averse until persuaded otherwise lol.
February 4, 201313 yr There are 1000s of Chinese assemblers of E bikes - some large, most small. They have jumped on the bandwagon over the past 5 years with the rapid increase of sales especially in Europe (and notably Holland) because that is what China has done for years. As already stated on here, the economies of scale that can now be achieved by the motorbike manufacturers simply cannot be achieved by the E bike assemblers - not yet. It is like the early days of the IBM clone (PC) back in the late 80s. A PC cost a fortune and you could get one built by any one of 100s of different companies - now its either a Dell or a Dell and costs peanuts. Give E bikes another 15 years and they will be mainstream, made by 4 or 5 of the big guys and probably sold in Tescos for a quarter of what they cost today. They'll all look the same, though and if they go wrong you'll be dealing with the call centre...but that's the price of turning niche into commodity and getting your pricing down. This doesn't mean that there isn't an element of ripping off in some cases when there's a 'what the market is prepared to pay' attitude. And as long as people 'are prepared to pay' (because essentially they think that the more they pay, the better the product so social status goes up, you only have to witness the cost of branded trainers for example), prices will remain high. With more and more sales of E bikes I think we'll see less of this blinkered attitude- better for everyone all round. Hatti
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