The part of your posting that Ferdinand was querying was this bit:

 

I don't think he's questioning the ratio of women to men being killed, but seeking evidence for men having learned the dangers and adopting a different approach to avoid it.

 

Michael

 

Michael has it.

 

The arguments I want to counter are around the belief that the correct answer is always +only+ to do things to motorists, whether it is banning them, hanging and and flogging them, or whatever. And to face down the claim that advocating anything else is 'victim blaming', or in this case soem sort of gender bias.

 

Those crude suggestions are red herrings, and prevent the reasons for the casualties being addressed from both cycling and driving sides.

 

Police assessments at the scene are that blame and mistakes are shared.

 

What I really need are:

 

Death and ideally Seriously Injured stats for London cyclists, by type of vehicle, gender, and ideally type of accident, over a period long enough to show the growth and fall off in male numbers, then the growth in female.

 

Ferdinand

Anybody got the figures for other large UK cities?

Do they also show the same disproportion of male/female deaths?

 

 

I've looked previously with no success Mike, but there is the odd comment that suggests there is a small degree of national element in this problem.

 

But it is mainly a London problem for two reasons. First the huge growth in London cycling commuting following the introduction of the congestion charge. Second, the number of very large long term construction projects the central area of London has been suffering. For example:

 

The Olympics Park

 

The Thames Water ring main tunnel.

 

The international rail station, effectively the reconstruction of Paddington Station and an attached hotel.

 

The immense Crossrail project, cutting tunnels right across London east to west, and building it's underground stations which connect to tube stations. This is still going on and is the largest construction project in Europe.

 

The Thames Tideway sewage tunnel project exploratory work and following main work. This is another east-west huge tunnel under London. All these tunnels have to have numerous access points throughout the central area for removal of spoil.

 

The complete refurbishment of the London Undergound system, a many years project.

 

Numerous new office blocks etc being built in the City and some surrounding areas.

 

New East London housing.

 

All these have needed hundreds of large construction trucks working continuously, making them a major element in the traffic.

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Edited June 24, 201510 yr by flecc

What I really need are:

 

Death and ideally Seriously Injured stats for London cyclists, by type of vehicle, gender, and ideally type of accident, over a period long enough to show the growth and fall off in male numbers, then the growth in female.

 

Ferdinand

 

I've found it difficult to enough information on this, all too often there's partial and somtimes misleading information. I wish I'd kept the collection of scattered details I'd managed to assemble previously so that I could have repeated them.

 

However, the reduction in male deaths is very obvious when one of their four-fifths have been killed this year while six of the one fifth of female cyclists were killed. Such previous figures that exist show a similar disproportion in many years.

 

The female figures have been very variable, as I remarked before, in one year about four years ago every HGV related death was female, so they haven't necessarily been increasing on average.

 

I've been ignoring car related deaths since there are far less of them and very often the drivers have been convicted, making it not an issue for cyclists to attend to. However, they have been mainly male deaths as one would expect, given the proportions.

 

Hence my only being interested in the one issue, female HGV related deaths which are a big problem. That's not just me saying it, the BBC have highlighted it twice now and TfL have said as much.

 

By all means search for information on the internet as I did previously, but it took me a very long time and I don't want to do it all over again. There's enough information already to see what the problem is.

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Thanks Flecc,

I get the impression that many, not all, accidents are tipper lorries and as you say, London is heaving with these at the moment.

Buses, and other low sided vehicles probably tend to push many victims away rather than sweeping them underneath.

On thing that many do not realise is that the back wheels do not follow the front wheels around a corner. Length makes this worse, so a car driver may be unaware of the problem that a longer vehicle has.

Seems to me that the only answer is to fence off the cycle lane near the junction, make it go left around the corner for about 5 yards, so that cyclists are left with a simple problem of crossing the road.

Obviously, the London hooligan lycra will ignore this and stay outside the fence, but law abiding women will probably use it.

We do have a Police force, their primary duty is the protection of life, so they could take up station at such places with power to arrest, confiscate bikes etc.

Buses, and other low sided vehicles probably tend to push many victims away rather than sweeping them underneath.

 

Buses and coaches have also figured among the HGV deaths over the years, so they don't protect as one might expect. That's why I disregard suggestions for side fences on trucks, since any long wheelbase vehicle needs a few inches of central clearance to cope with traffic calming humps and potholes. That's enough to crush and kill as has happened.

 

Seems to me that the only answer is to fence off the cycle lane near the junction, make it go left around the corner for about 5 yards, so that cyclists are left with a simple problem of crossing the road.

 

Many of the roads involved have no cycle lane at that point, too narrow. It's then just cyclists alongside trucks in the same lane.

 

We do have a Police force, their primary duty is the protection of life, so they could take up station at such places with power to arrest, confiscate bikes etc.

 

The Metropolitan Police had an intensive action program for a couple of months last Autumn after the sudden spate of cyclist deaths within a couple of weeks. You may remember my posts at the time. During that they were watching all traffic at junctions, stopping offending drivers and cyclists and warning them of the dangers. They also issued many warnings and tickets, I seem to remember about 15,000 of them, roughly equally divided among cyclists and drivers.

 

There was some pointlessness in this though, since cyclists were warned for crossing with pedestrians on a red light, one of the very things that keeps them safe!

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Edited June 24, 201510 yr by flecc

I know someone knows her personally. Hope her family is ok

I know someone knows her personally. Hope her family is ok

 

That's one of the worst aspects, the terrible effect on family and friends. Some of the young women killed this year and last were EU working immigrants, their families living elsewhere in Europe and needing to come over here after the tragic death of their daughters.

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Flecc,

One point of interest in your reply is that cycling has increased enormously in London because of the congestion charge.

I do not suppose it will ever be possible to find out, but I do wonder just how experienced these female cyclists were. Also, did they have driving licences.

A lack of road sense and danger awareness is a possible factor.

Slightly away from the topic, a local family in my village raised two sons to adult hood. Both were right scallywags and seemingly unaware of danger. Both got themselves killed, but tellingly, I noticed that the young son of one of them also has no sense of danger and was riding his 3 wheeler alone on the main road, 400 yards away from home at the age of 5 years.

So, Men as well as Women can exhibit a lowered sense of awareness, just that the London figures at least suggest that women are more prone to this.

I do not see this as sexist, no women suffer testicular cancer, no men suffer ovarian cancer. It is a simple fact that politicians must face and take action.

the London figures at least suggest that women are more prone to this.

 

Much more than suggest though Mike.

 

I have done some back research on the numbers from January 2008 to date. I cannot absolutely guarantee precision since one document's author acknowledges a discrepancy of 1 and I also know there is an error of 1 female and posibly 2 in last years figure.

 

However, the totals of HGV-cyclist related deaths found from January 2008 to date is 26 male and 30 female.

 

Since females form between 20% and 25% of the cycling commuters, depending on who you believe, the problem is very obvious. Taking the higher figure, the 25% of female cyclists have suffered 54% of the HGV related deaths, the 75% of male cyclists the remaining 46%.

 

And the problem is getting worse. In 2009 when there were far fewer cycle commuting, 8 HGV related London deaths were of females. This year in under six months it's already 6 deaths, on target for 12 female deaths for the whole year. But the overall London cycling death rate hasn't risen, staying around 14 each year.

 

That's why I raise this issue, in the hope that notice is taken and these deaths don't carry on.

 

Here is the most dramatic way I can think of to show the seriousness of this problem, expressing the death rate by commuting journeys using this year's deaths to date.

 

Females: One death per 1.4 million commuting journeys.

 

Males: One death per 50.4 million commuting journeys.

 

Data used:

 

HGV related deaths 2015 = 1 male, 6 female.

 

Number of cycle commuters 280,000, doing two rides each day.

 

Proportion of female cyclists = 25%

 

24 working weeks of 5 days = 120 days.

 

Data source: TfL (Transport for London)

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Edited June 25, 201510 yr by flecc

Thanks Flecc,

Females: One death per 1.4 million commuting journeys.

 

Males: One death per 50.4 million commuting journeys.

Just to be clear, this is one death caused by an HGV over those journeys, not simply one death over those journeys. For that statistic you'd need to use the overall cyclist deaths this year including the one other male - it still adds up to a compelling statistic.

 

Michael

Just to be clear, this is one death caused by an HGV over those journeys, not simply one death over those journeys. For that statistic you'd need to use the overall cyclist deaths this year including the one other male - it still adds up to a compelling statistic.

 

Michael

 

 

No Michael, it's exactly as I stated:

 

1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)

 

1 male death per 50.4 million journeys (i.e. male journeys)

 

And I avoid saying "caused by HGV" since it implies driver blame.

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No Michael, it's exactly as I stated:

 

1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)

 

1 male death per 50.4 million journeys (i.e. male journeys)

 

And I avoid saying "caused by HGV" since it implies driver blame.

.

In which case you need to use the ratio 2 to 6 male to female this year, not 1 to 6. There have been 8 fatalities this year.

That's a good question:

 

Are cyclists with driving licenses more likely to be KSI than those who do not have one.

 

F

In which case you need to use the ratio 2 to 6 male to female this year, not 1 to 6. There have been 8 fatalities this year.

 

No again Michael, I made it clear I was speaking of HGV related deaths, since that is the only issue I have been raising throughout the thread. The ratio is 1 to 6 for those deaths. As I posted earlier, there is no large gender imbalance in car related deaths so this issue does not apply in relation to those.

 

The second man you mention was a few days ago and in collision with a car in the outskirts of London. The car driver has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving.

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Edited June 25, 201510 yr by flecc

That's a good question:

 

Are cyclists with driving licenses more likely to be KSI than those who do not have one.

 

F

 

No idea Ferdinand, to my knowledge this has never been raised in association with cyclist deaths.

 

The nearest to the issue has been exercises to get cyclists to appreciate what a driver can see from one of these high cab trucks.

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No again Michael, I made it clear I was speaking of HGV related deaths, since that is the only issue I have been raising throughout the thread. The ratio is 1 to 6 for those deaths. As I posted earlier, there is no large imbalance in car related deaths so this issue does not apply in relation to those.

Actually the thread has covered all fatalities not just those from HGVs. That notwithstanding, if you make the overall statement of "1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)" you have to make it valid, i.e. consider all RTA fatalities. On the other hand if you are confining it to accidents involving HGVs you must qualify the statement and say "1 female death involving an HGV per 1.4 million journeys". You can't have it both ways.

To put it another way, women are 12 times more likely to be killed when cycling in London then men based upon 2015 fatalities (and that's not limiting it to HGVs).

Actually the thread has covered all fatalities not just those from HGVs. That notwithstanding, if you make the overall statement of "1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)" you have to make it valid, i.e. consider all RTA fatalities. On the other hand if you are confining it to accidents involving HGVs you must qualify the statement and say "1 female death involving an HGV per 1.4 million journeys". You can't have it both ways.

 

For goodness sake Michael, what is you agenda here?

 

I made it clear I posted on HGV related deaths, in my post with trhe data you are commenting on, I stressed four times that I was speaking of HGVs. I'm not having anything both ways:

 

One woman lost her life in an HGV related accident for every 1.4 million female commuting journeys.

 

One man lost his life in an HGV related accident in 50.4 million male commuting journeys.

 

Those are the facts which your obfuscation cannot alter.

.

To put it another way, women are 12 times more likely to be killed when cycling in London then men based upon 2015 fatalities (and that's not limiting it to HGVs).

 

 

If you wish to post on all deaths, by all means do so, but don't quote me in any of those posts as you've been doing after I've repeatedly made it clear that I am posting about a gender specific problem.

 

And the way you've posed this is clearly misleading, since the proportion of the relevant female cyclists and journeys is far smaller than male ones. 12 times doesn't take these into account

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Edited June 25, 201510 yr by flecc

For goodness sake Michael, what is you agenda here?

 

I made it clear I posted on HGV related deaths, in my post with trhe data you are commenting on, I stressed four times that I was speaking of HGVs. I'm not having anything both ways:

 

One woman lost her life in an HGV related accident for every 1.4 million female commuting journeys.

 

One man lost his life in an HGV related accident in 50.4 million male commuting journeys.

 

Those are the facts which your obfuscation cannot alter.

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Absolutely no agenda, save wishing your statement to be correct with respect to context, which they now are as you state above. Google searches may bring up this thread and stat snippets like the ones you made for the sake of drama should be in context. I qualified the snippets in the post after yours but we seem to have gone down a route of befuddlement after that.

 

All that notwithstanding, this is a very important point. Are there links to the stories in the press where the female aspect is starting to be drawn out?

 

Michael

.

All that notwithstanding, this is a very important point. Are there links to the stories in the press where the female aspect is starting to be drawn out?

 

Michael

 

None I know of offhand. On the web I've previously found a reference to the BBC raising it a few years ago. Also TfL have raised the issue in some of the things they've said, including their assessment of the causes which I've also commented on in agreement.

 

Nothing from the government, the nearest they have got to the issue was in a 2009 report on the causes of cycle accidents nationally in which this paragraph appeared:

 

Heavy goods vehicles (HGVs)

 

HGVs present particular challenges for cyclists and are over-represented in cyclist fatalities (18% of fatal cycle accidents involved an HGV, compared with 4% of serious accidents). These accidents were more common at junctions where the main collision configuration was the HGV driver making a left turn while the cyclist was going ahead. ‘Vehicle blind spot’ and ‘passing too close to the cyclist’ were judged by the police to be key contributory factors. From the data, it appears that this is a particular issue for London and it has been the subject of recent research for Transport for London (Keigan et al., 2009). Ongoing work being carried out here will provide important lessons for other authorities.

 

But no later mentions of the gender disparity, even when every HGV related London death (8) was female in one year, which I think was 2009.

 

P.S. A search has revealed this Guardian article from 2010.

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Edited June 25, 201510 yr by flecc

I've seen some commentary on it, but mainly in the frame as women as victims society etc etc.

 

There was a long conversation on ctc recently.

 

I think the information is around for London to meet my question but the cross tab analysis will involve reading a lot of consecutive annual reports, which is tedious.

 

Ferdinand

I've seen some commentary on it, but mainly in the frame as women as victims society etc etc.

 

There was a long conversation on ctc recently.

 

I think the information is around for London to meet my question but the cross tab analysis will involve reading a lot of consecutive annual reports, which is tedious.

 

Ferdinand

 

Unfortunately the CTC tend to divert anything raised on this subject back to an issue of trucks and drivers or traffic in general. I've always found them too biased to look dispassionately at any cyclist involvement aspect.

.

There was something about it on the BBC this morning, where somebody was being interviewed. The BBC guy asked why it seemed to be more of a problem for women than than men. I don't think a lot of antisexists would have liked the answer from the cycling safetyexpert or whoever he was, though he was probably right.