I don't think that sexism is involved, other than by those with a political agenda.

My Mother, Wife and Sister have passed away, but I have a daughter and Grand daughter and female issues are important to me.

The Evening Standard has written an article on this issue. No real conclusions or recommendations as such, but it is starting to be talked about it seems.

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/why-women-seem-to-be-more-vulnerable-around-traffic-blackspots-in-london-10341420.html

 

Michael

Seems to be summarising old analysis and copying blogs not doing legwork.

 

In particular Rosamund Urwin, the journo, repeats the "Circle of Death" cluster thing, which doesn't prove what she says. Do a sensitivity test - make the circle slightly different - and the numbers shift dramatically.

 

Dr Sarah Wollaston MP (who I don't like, should admit) - grasping only one end of the stick:

 

“This is gendered,” argues Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative MP for Totnes who has long campaigned for better cycling infrastructure and more funding. “I don’t think the Secretary of State can ignore this any longer: there are specific dangers to women from HGVs in London — and there’s something he could do about it tomorrow. I’m not saying we ban [lorries] all day, but let’s not have them out there at peak times for cyclists.”

 

When are peak times in London? HGVs are curently banned from I think 9pm to 7am for the peace of residents.

 

What is the rush hour proposal? How are builders supposed to start work at 7am or 8am? Will Londoners pay the extra building costs?

 

F

Seems to be summarising old analysis and copying blogs not doing legwork.

 

In particular Rosamund Urwin, the journo, repeats the "Circle of Death" cluster thing, which doesn't prove what she says. Do a sensitivity test - make the circle slightly different - and the numbers shift dramatically.

 

Dr Sarah Wollaston MP (who I don't like, should admit) - grasping only one end of the stick:

 

“This is gendered,” argues Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative MP for Totnes who has long campaigned for better cycling infrastructure and more funding. “I don’t think the Secretary of State can ignore this any longer: there are specific dangers to women from HGVs in London — and there’s something he could do about it tomorrow. I’m not saying we ban [lorries] all day, but let’s not have them out there at peak times for cyclists.”

 

When are peak times in London? HGVs are curently banned from I think 9pm to 7am for the peace of residents.

 

What is the rush hour proposal? How are builders supposed to start work at 7am or 8am? Will Londoners pay the extra building costs?

 

F

Nothing about educating women cyclists then?

Nothing about educating women cyclists then?

 

 

No, as ever. On the BBC TV program "The Sunday Politics", MP Jeremy Corbyn raised the female v truck death problem, only for my MP, Gavin Barwell, to deliberately steer the discussion onto trucks, repeating the impractical suggestions of low front cabs and side fences and also talking about roads and legal measures. He'd successfuly derailed it, leading to nothing sensible being said.

 

Why they can't grasp that it's a simple education problem needing well targetted publicity I can't fathom. Do they insultingly believe women can't learn, or is it that they are just scared of offending the female electorate?

 

I would have thought the greatest offence a woman can suffer is being killed.

.

Nothing about educating women cyclists then?

 

It's a huge long piece, so there may be *something* in there.

 

It may require a fine toothcomb to find it.

 

F

Edited July 1, 201510 yr by Ferdinand

The message is spreading, today's BBC Radio 4 program "You and Yours" had a discussion about these deaths. The downside as usual was a government spokesman avoiding the gender aspect by speaking of the generic actions the government is taking, mentioning spending one billion pounds nationally over the next ten years on cycling facilities such as segregation.

 

When that was criticised as being very little over that time nationally, his response was that cycling facilities are cheap so the amount doesn't express the quantity. To my cynical mind what he said amounts to either very few thinly spread good facilities or widespread ineffective measures like more white lines on roads.

 

The main concentration of the program item was on low forward cabs, once again ignoring that the construction trucks that are involved in these deaths cannot use them on many sites. They made a feature of a Mercedes truck with such a cab as if it was a new idea, but they've long been available on municipal vehicles only ever used on roads and I remember some many decades ago.

 

This "You and Yours" program is available on the BBC i-player now on this link, the item is at 15.35 minutes and lasts just over 8 minutes.

.

Edited July 1, 201510 yr by flecc

Just seen this vid from 20th July and shows a motorcyle getting crushed by a lorry turniing into a junction blinded by his own window pillar and mirrors - Thankfully the rider managed to leap off and escaped any serious harm.

 

I like the way the truck driver went over to the bike when he backed away and tried to get it upright, as if the rider was just going to get on it and ride it away. That was criminally stupid driving. It could have beed a child crossing the road and he wouldn’t have seen it.

Just seen this vid from 20th July and shows a motorcyle getting crushed by a lorry turniing into a junction blinded by his own window pillar and mirrors - Thankfully the rider managed to leap off and escaped any serious harm.

The driver should have paid more attention when turning into the road (the bit when the motorcyclist looked to his right) but what an awful design of motor vehicle! As you say, the driver was completely blinded by the windscreen pillar and mirror, and couldn't see a thing. How on earth is he supposed to turn corners like that when he can't see? A high cab, pillar and mirror next to each other means there's a huge blind spot.

 

I wonder if there's a place for something like the 360 degree view on the Nissan Qashqai which merges views from four cameras (front, back, and both sides under the wing mirrors) to give a birds-eye view on top of the car. Very effective indeed.

That's the reality of these modern trucks, that zone is completely blind. Even if the driver stops, gets out and looks, he then has to get back in and is once again blind to that area and anything entering it.

 

How can something unavoidable be criminally stupid?

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Horrific. I hear you completely - I was just thinking that lots of lorries look similar to that on the outside so would have the same visibility issues. I'd be terrified to drive one in a city, and that's coming from someone who loves driving large vans when I get the chance! I found that film enlightening as to the issues the lorry drivers have to deal with.

 

I don't want to divert attention from the thrust of the thread (the fact that there is a gender issue here) but I can't help thinking modern cheap technology can help. As I say, the 360 degree view on the Qashqai is very effective using a bit of digital signal processing of the video to show a top-down view of the vehicle and its surroundings. The same system would catch both the motorbike we see above and cyclists in nearside blind spots.

That's the reality of these modern trucks, that zone is completely blind. Even if the driver stops, gets out and looks, he then has to get back in and is once again blind to that area and anything entering it.

 

How can something unavoidable be criminally stupid?

.

 

 

My view has always been that cabs should have better visibility and you have argued against that in the past. In effect saying that things are as they are and nothing can be done about it. But given the obvious blind spots, for the driver to turn in like that and swing over to the wrong side of the road when he was clearly unsighted was criminally stupid.

>

>I'd be terrified to drive one in a city, and that's coming from someone who loves driving large vans when I get the chance! I found that film enlightening as to the issues the lorry drivers have to deal with.

 

I have a 60-year old friend who drives lorries delivering nationwide from Derby.

 

He has just refused an upgrade to a new more comfortable lorry because he knows his current vehicle is not allowed to drive in London due to emissions regs.

 

There will end up being a double profession - London and the rest.

 

F

Well why not, they think they are different to the rest of us.

My view has always been that cabs should have better visibility and you have argued against that in the past. In effect saying that things are as they are and nothing can be done about it.

 

I've never said nothing can be done about it, only that trucks that have to fully access any construction sites are restricted in what they can have as provisions. I've said they cannot have low forward cabs, they cannot have low enough side guard fences and they have to have short overhangs, all for ground clearance reasons. In consequence their drivers have some serious visibility issues just ahead of and on the left front of the cab.

 

And it's primarily these trucks that are involved in the accidents, not only in London but mainly there due to the high level of major construction work going on.

 

Many of the trucks operating in London have had safety measures added but they can't always work. For example they now commonly have warning sounds or spoken messages when preparing to turn left, but in this case a motorcyclist was involved. They wear crash helmets and commonly have ear plugs in as well for good reason, and that will clearly impair their ability to hear such a warning.

 

An all-round camera system like that mfj197 suggests could be the best way forward and systems are being tried, though how one could be installed and kept working adequately on a tipper truck working in dirty conditions is questionable at least.

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Well why not, they think they are different to the rest of us.

 

In some ways we are, for example in London British born white people are also a minority now. Otherwise such differences are often due to our conditions being very different from those in much of the country.

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Oh flecc, I was expecting an outburst.

Oh flecc, I was expecting an outburst.

 

Sorry to disappoint! I got that the point you made was to some extent meant to be provocative, but it contained too much truth for me to be upset by it.

 

Whether we like it or not and many don't, London has quite recently become another country, having little in common with elsewhere in Great Britain, or anywhere else in the world possibly.

.

I've never said nothing can be done about it, only that trucks that have to fully access any construction sites are restricted in what they can have as provisions. I've said they cannot have low forward cabs, they cannot have low enough side guard fences and they have to have short overhangs, all for ground clearance reasons. In consequence their drivers have some serious visibility issues just ahead of and on the left front of the cab.

 

And it's primarily these trucks that are involved in the accidents, not only in London but mainly there due to the high level of major construction work going on.

 

Many of the trucks operating in London have had safety measures added but they can't always work. For example they now commonly have warning sounds or spoken messages when preparing to turn left, but in this case a motorcyclist was involved. They wear crash helmets and commonly have ear plugs in as well for good reason, and that will clearly impair their ability to hear such a warning.

 

An all-round camera system like that mfj197 suggests could be the best way forward and systems are being tried, though how one could be installed and kept working adequately on a tipper truck working in dirty conditions is questionable at least.

.

 

There are technical fixes for all those things if the will is there to do it, and if governments are prepared to force changes in design on wagons which operate in cities. I had a Citroen over forty years ago which had adjustable ride height, and at maximum it looked like it was on stilts. So something along those lines is technically possible combined with low cabs and flexible or retracting side guards.

 

The industry would hate it and lobby against it; and the truth is that government would prefer to let them kill a few cyclists and pedestrians every year rather than force them to spend a lot of money updating their equipment.

 

Everyone pays lip service to the maxim that you can’t put a price on human life, but actuaries do it all the time, and in practice it really isn’t very much compared to the interests of large business and their friends in government.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by JohnCade

the truth is that government would prefer to let them kill a few cyclists and pedestrians every year rather than force them to spend a lot of money updating their equipment.

 

Everyone pays lip service to the maxim that you can’t put a price on human life, but actuaries do it all the time, and in practice it really isn’t very much compared to the interests of large business and their friends in government.

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

Tom

There are technical fixes for all those things if the will is there to do it, and if governments are prepared to force changes in design on wagons which operate in cities. I had a Citroen over forty years ago which had adjustable ride height, and at maximum it looked like it was on stilts. So something along those lines is technically possible combined with low cabs and flexible or retracting side guards.

 

The industry would hate it and lobby against it; and the truth is that government would prefer to let them kill a few cyclists and pedestrians every year rather than force them to spend a lot of money updating their equipment.

 

Everyone pays lip service to the maxim that you can’t put a price on human life, but actuaries do it all the time, and in practice it really isn’t very much compared to the interests of large business and their friends in government.

 

A lot of truth in all this John, but it has to be said that the measures already taken over the last four years have worked as far as the 80% of male cyclists are concerned.

 

The remaining problem for cyclists vis-a-vis HGVs as I've repeatedly said is a gender one. And quite apart from trucks there remains a general problem with cars which still cause deaths and serious injuries to all types of cyclists, regardless of gender.

 

So for me that is where the efforts should be concentrated. Firstly addressing the female educational issue to stop those deaths, rather than cowardly ducking it as at present. Secondly implementing the road improvement measures that are easily achievable, for example adequate forward cycle zones for cyclists at all stop junctions with rigorous enforcement to keep them clear of motor vehicles.

.

One solution...

 

http://static.commercialmotor.com/big-lorry-blog/Uneconic.jpg

Well that's yet another disadvantage of having a low forward truck cab! Just as well it was in a left-hand drive vehicle country.

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The people inside the yellow lines canot be seen by the driver!!!

 

 

 

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n50/kinninviekid/10731127_541411602661135_3035156222646479443_n_zpsg0bb8swr.jpg