The point is having a lighter bike. Which is an advantage for any kind of bike, be it a mountain, road, BMX or pedelec bike. period.

 

I cannot agree on this point.

 

For me, one of the best features of the ProConnect is the tidy linkage between the Panasonic drive system and the Nexus 8 hub.

 

However, I see it as a disadvantage that the final selection as to which version of the hub to use came down in favour of the relatively unusual 24 spoke hub / 700C rim. Equivalent rims are hard to find, and as discussed earlier in the thread, the wheel will always need good backup from 50cycles when rims and spokes need replacement.

 

Meanwhile, the Nexus 8 is emerging as a versatile hub gear, now badged as the Alfine.

 

Here is a good example of how well it can look in 36 spoke format, and I don't believe a bike such as this suffers badly from the weight issues of 8 or 12 extra spokes.

 

What it gains is a wide variety of rim choices, enabling it to be more easily developed as a tough road or (smooth) trail bike, with or without family members on board, pulling trailers when appropriate.

 

It is too early to worry about the 24 spoke question, let's wait and see. But if issues develop, the Alfine hub in its more traditional format is worth remembering.

 

The Alfine hubgear is very close in pedigree to the premium redband nexus 8 that we see on the ProConnect. It is already equipped with the right shifter and cassette system, sprocket and non rotation washers.

 

Launched for 2008 on mountain bikes, I would be interested to hear if the Alfine has proven sufficiently robust for this application.

 

Here is one review.

 

Next year, we might see more bikes with the Panasonic drive mated to derailleur gears. It will be interesting to see which is the better bet regarding gearing.

 

James

 

PS Crossed with Flecc and Frank's post

Edited September 17, 200817 yr by JamesC

Erm, my pro-connect has 36 spokes per wheel, I just counted them. It was one of a batch that only arrived in the UK a couple of weeks ago. Has the spec been changed because of this problem?

 

Mike

Could well be Mike, and if so I'm not at all surprised. As you may have seen above, I've fiercely defended my judgement that 24 spokes is not a good idea on these near 21 kilo e-bikes.

 

The Pro Connect seems to be evolving anyway. 50cycles previously showed one photo of one with a front dynohub like the Agattu's, and that most certainly would not have been 24 spoked.

.

Erm, my pro-connect has 36 spokes per wheel, I just counted them. It was one of a batch that only arrived in the UK a couple of weeks ago. Has the spec been changed because of this problem?

 

Mike

 

I can't answer that Mike - the spec on 50cycles web site still refers to the Shimano WH-8R25 rear wheel, which is a 24 spoke affair.

 

Having said that, the WH-8R25 is very hard to find in Europe so it may well be that they have started to use the more recent 8 speed hubs with a different wheel build.

 

Quite likely the hub will have written on it either SG-8R25 or SG-8R36 - these are the premium (redband) hubs which are usually offered as 36 spoke. The SG-8R36 is the more recent, using rollers rather than pawls in the freewheel, as can be seen here in the recent Velovision magazine via the hubstripping website.

 

Alternatively, the hub might be labelled Alfine which is a similar spec to the SG-8R36, but able to take a disk brake rather than a roller brake by removing the black dust cap on the non-sprocket side (I would guess that the ProConnect continues to use rim brakes).

 

James

Edited September 17, 200817 yr by JamesC

This site has a photo of the 2008 Pro Connect with 36 spokes per wheel in a step through version. Click on the photo to see it clearly in detail.

.

Erm, my pro-connect has 36 spokes per wheel, I just counted them. It was one of a batch that only arrived in the UK a couple of weeks ago. Has the spec been changed because of this problem?

 

Mike

 

Mike

 

Is your ProConnect the Xtra Small with 26" wheels, or one of the regular frame sizes with 700C wheels ?

 

James

Flecc

 

This is really confusing why you state that 24 spokes should not be on a near 21kg bike, surely the riders of the bike can vary upto 20Kgs each way no matter if they have 24 spokes or 36.

 

It really does not make a difference on the number of spokes so long as they are fitted correctly. This is a very out of date thought from the Guru and feel you are being overly defensive in order to save face on such a pointless thread.

 

thx

 

Bob

Flecc

 

This is really confusing why you state that 24 spokes should not be on a near 21kg bike, surely the riders of the bike can vary upto 20Kgs each way no matter if they have 24 spokes or 36.

 

It really does not make a difference on the number of spokes so long as they are fitted correctly. This is a very out of date thought from the Guru and feel you are being overly defensive in order to save face on such a pointless thread.

 

thx

 

Bob

 

There's no face saving involved Bob. Those who know me also know that when I need to back down or apologise for an error, I'm always ready to do so. I'm not backing down on this because so many are misguided in what they post in opposition. Sadly I keep having to repeat myself as I have to again now:

 

1) 36 spokes is emphatically not out of date thought when the majority of new bikes have 36 spokes and that number is near universal on e-bikes. This is after all an e-bike forum. It's the higher priced lightweight race style bikes that sometimes have less, and no e-bike can be classified as being one of those

 

2) Rider weight is to some extent sprung weight due to the body's absorbency of shock, only the bike weight immediately impacting on the road wheels. This is particularly relevant in BMX which dienamics didn't seem to understand. When stunting on BMX, the rider is up on the pedals with knee and hip joints angled as a shock absorbing cantilever. Despite little of the rider's weight directly hitting the wheels, it's still thought desirable to have 48 spokes.

 

3) If it really makes no difference how many spokes there are as you say, why don't BMX have less than 48, why do any bikes use more than 24? That's not confusing as you feel, it makes perfect sense to have a rim adequately spoked for the use involved.

 

4) The opposing posting is very centred on sport bike practice which isn't relevant here. E-bikes are not race machines, being used predominantly as utility bikes and commuters, very few solely for leisure. E-bikes are much heavier, often carry heavy loads and sometimes do heavy towing.

 

5) If fewer than 30 spokes is all that are needed, why is the Pro-Connect/Dover alone in that out of all the e-bike models in the world?

 

6) Your comment on not mattering if the spokes are fitted correctly I've also previously answered. In this imperfect world they won't always be, and that's why the more forgiving 36 spoke standard is desirable, especially when as I've so clearly and repeatedly shown, there is no advantage in fewer. As James has observed, there can be disadvantages as well to having fewer.

 

7) Do the opposers even have e-bikes? I rather doubt they all have. This is relevant to their thinking if all their experience is of unpowered bikes.

 

8) This is a members forum where all are entitled to express and defend opinions. When faced with something one disagrees with, the options are to disagree or leave the thread. Advising someone else to stop expressing their opinion isn't a very acceptable option.

 

Now if someone wants to disagree, please can they do it by showing me how what I've said above in each point is erroneous, not by constantly repeating previously answered errors.

.

Edited September 17, 200817 yr by flecc

Flecc

 

I really do not understand what you are getting at, are you saying that no ebikes should ever have less than 36 spokes, why can you not grasp that it makes no difference. Are you saying that a wheel with 36 spokes has never snapped in the history of wheels? Have you ever had a spoke broken on any bike either electric or not? If so how many did the wheel have.

 

Do you have any scientific proof that 24 spokes is not good for a bike, how many wheels and spoke combinations have you tested in your entire life, I fine it hard to understand your judgement when you seem to have no experience with any wheel except a 36 spoke type. I think it is time to concede to common sense and admit you are wrong.

 

Please do not eat yellow snow

 

thx

 

Bob

Already answered Bob. For a given set of component quantities, more spokes are stronger than less spokes, and the rim is supported more evenly throughout the arc, both facts.

 

Those are the advantages, but there are as I've so clearly shown, no realisable advantages to having less on our kind of bikes and sometimes disadvantages, so why use less when it's not as strong.

 

So why don't you admit you are wrong, since it's clearly me stating relevant facts in support and you only making statements without supporting them.

 

I did say please when asking that disagreement should show in what way my points were wrong, but once again you just repeat the same error again which had been answered in point 3 above and previously. i.e. If it makes no difference, why do BMX bikes and some load carrying types have 48 spokes, and why are the great majority of all bikes and virtually all e-bikes using 36 spokes?

 

Are all those worldwide bike designers mistaken? I think not.

 

As others have said previously, bike design was pretty well settled after 100 years of the "safety" bicycle and we too often seem to be in an age of fashion and gimmickry just for something fresh with which to sell bikes and extract ever larger amounts of money from customers, regardless of whether it's better or worse for them. You may be taken in by some of this, but I'm not and no-one will persuade me to be.

.

Edited September 17, 200817 yr by flecc

There are numerous examples of catastrophic failures amongst low spoke wheelsets amongst the blogs of the out and out racing fraternity. There are even some amongst those racers themselves that feel that the trickle-down effect of low spoke wheels now ending up on ordinary commuting bikes as undesirable. ie., the potential for catastrophic failure unless the low spoke wheelsets are made from THE very highest of quality components. (I'm not proposing that the Pro Connects are anything but).

 

I suppose what we're being asked to do, is to trust those who promote the low spoke wheelsets for commuting bikes. However, bicycle engineers don't always call it right. For example think Shimano as great as they are, (and they are), are immune from making mistakes? If so , then think again -

 

In the 1980's Shimano came up with a revolutionary idea = BIOPACE oval chainrings. Remember those? Sold loads and loads to unsuspecting cyclists - it was the 'in' thing to do. There were debates that labelled those slow to admit to the benefits of the new technology as Luddites etc.,

 

Here's the thing - Shimano had made a complete engineering ar$e of it!

 

Today 'Ovals' in particular 'Egg rings' are a proven and well respected crankest for those who desire that kind of thing, and these days - it works.

 

But Shimano's effort gave Ovals a bad name in the 1980's because their crank offsets orientated them 100% incorrectly and designed them, wait for it - BACK TO FRONT! Instead of this making things more efficient, as they advertised, they made things worse! What they did in fact, incredibly, was in effect give a higher gear to push through the dead-spots instead of a lower one, making matters worse, not better, than with round chainrings!!! The very thing they were invented to replace!!!!!!!!

 

Can you believe that - 100% worse! Shimano eventually quietly dropped the idea, hoping no one would notice, but the whole shenanigans put the idea of 'ovals' back 20 years until it was picked up by others and done properly.

 

Now why am I reminded of all that when low spoke wheelsets, something designed for a completely different application, ie., lightweight racing, are being promoted for use on everyday (and heavy by comparison), commuting bikes?

Edited September 18, 200817 yr by Danny-K

Mike

 

Is your ProConnect the Xtra Small with 26" wheels, or one of the regular frame sizes with 700C wheels ?

 

James

Nope, it's the 19" diamond frame, 700C wheels.

Nope, it's the 19" diamond frame, 700C wheels.

 

Mine is also the 49cm / 19" frame, so there must be some changes coming forward on the new models.

 

If you get a moment, can you let us know the part number written on the hub of the back wheel. Various views have been expressed in this thread, but I would be quite happy if it has become a 36 spoke Nexus 8 / Alfine hub.

 

James

This thread is totally pointless. You can ramble on about how your old school 36 spoke wheels are better all you like.

 

But the self proclaimed 'guru' in my opinion needs to stop living in the past.

 

<insert another two pages of crap below>

 

I am not quite clear why you find it all so emotional.

 

Shimano in their wisdom have had a good crack at developing a competitively priced, 8 speed, internal gear hub.

 

A lot have been made in 32 spoke and 36 spoke versions, and spares are readily available.

 

Along the way, they have made a smaller number in the 24 spoke version and spares are quite difficult to find.

 

No doubt there are very appropriate applications for the 24 spoke version, but for some reason there is a delay in Shimano announcing the latest range of hubs in anything other than 32 and 36 spokes.

 

If your view is shared by Shimano, then the delay will be short.

 

James

This thread is totally pointless. You can ramble on about how your old school 36 spoke wheels are better all you like.

 

But the self proclaimed 'guru' in my opinion needs to stop living in the past.

 

<insert another two pages of crap below>

 

Dienamics,

 

a gentle reminder to be courteous to other forum members.

This thread is totally pointless. You can ramble on about how your old school 36 spoke wheels are better all you like.

 

But the self proclaimed 'guru' in my opinion needs to stop living in the past.

 

<insert another two pages of crap below>

 

Blimey, I think you're in a dark place at the moment....

Blimey, I think you're in a dark place at the moment....

Pretty much what he has said already:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1573-where-do-you-live-v2-0-a-33.html#post35839

Pretty much what he has said already:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1573-where-do-you-live-v2-0-a-33.html#post35839

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!

It isn't fit for humans now,

There isn't grass to graze a cow.

Swarm over, Death!

This thread is totally pointless. You can ramble on about how your old school 36 spoke wheels are better all you like.

 

But the self proclaimed 'guru' in my opinion needs to stop living in the past.

 

I'm not annoyed by your post dienamics, just bemused by how anyone can be so blinkered.

 

36 spokes are the past, the present and the future, the vast majority of the world's cycle production using them. They are therefore not "old school".

 

They have a substantial safety factor and can withstand collisions that take out some spokes without collapsing. In the interests of maximum performance, race style bikes use less by sacrificing most of the safety factor, leaving no reserves, the sudden collapses seen in sporting events witness to that fact. In between the two there are compromises like 32 spokes on unpowered light bikes.

 

But this is an e-bike forum and your problem, shared by another in this thread, is that you obviously have no e-bike knowledge or experience. Your 19 posts show only too clearly your confrontational and sarcastic approach to this forum and the dim view you take of it. As a last attempt to get you to understand, the only bikes of interest in this forum are:

 

a) E-bikes which almost always are 36 spoked.

 

b) Normal bikes to add kit motors to. Since kit motors mostly have 36 spoke hubs and never under 30, and the Currie non-hub motor is only supplied with a 36 spoke attachment, the bikes with fewer spokes are no good to us and therefore of no interest.

.

This thread is totally pointless. You can ramble on about how your old school 36 spoke wheels are better all you like.

 

But the self proclaimed 'guru' in my opinion needs to stop living in the past.

 

<insert another two pages of crap below>

 

Actually that is wrong - he is not a self proclaimed guru, that title was given to him by Russ (the site owner) for helping him with technical problems.

Three pages and still living in good health!

 

Dienamics, I notice you attack my postings on this spokes issue, instead of also opposing others such as JamesC. I sense you are someone who dislikes authority and the title Guru irritates you.

 

In fact the title is purely honorary and not asked for, and when I was offered more status with admin powers in the forum, I refused it since I just wanted to remain what I am, an ordinary member like you, one amongst equals.

.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?

 

If advice falls on deaf ears, does it have an effect?

.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?

I can almost imagine you sniggering to yourself, 'Beavis & Butthead' style as you write this! Glad you're having fun! (Actually finding your recent posts quite amusing, keep them coming )

check out this bad boy!http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/images/wheel.jpg

 

Hey I had one of those on my Powabyke..............(well actually come to think of it - it must have been two!)

Mine is also the 49cm / 19" frame, so there must be some changes coming forward on the new models.

 

If you get a moment, can you let us know the part number written on the hub of the back wheel. Various views have been expressed in this thread, but I would be quite happy if it has become a 36 spoke Nexus 8 / Alfine hub.

 

James

I had a look, it's the SG-8R31 which I think is a standard Inter8 hub?

 

Mike