Things have changed massively in the police. It isn't Life On Mars anymore I can assure you.

 

'Planemo', I'm afraid you cannot assure me. Much as I am sure you would like it to be the case, the police service has not changed in any material way over recent decades.

 

I would not criticise rank and file officers who perform their duties to the best of their ability but at the top of the management/administrative pyramid, politics and freemasonry still dictate the direction of police priorities and tactics. Crime-fighting seems to be well down the list of priorities for many constabularies these days and the police are seen increasingly as simply the protectors of the elite and enforcers of government policy.

 

Tom

Oldtom,

 

Many years ago, I was about 12 or 13, my teacher started the first lesson in physics with a quote similar to this:

 

There is no right. There is no wrong. There are only degrees of correctness.

 

Needless to say that lesson has served me well and I excelled in that subject.

And I never insult the intelligence of people who hold different opinions to mine.

'Danidl', I'm sure you didn't mean it so but your comment could easily be viewed as racist.

 

Leaving that aside, what you refer to as 'ungracious' comments by me towards 'Woosh' were based on my perception of his repeated unanswerable questions (by any lay commentator) on the events at Grenfell Tower and the aftermath.

 

I have just had a look back and here are some examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then a statement like this thrown in!

 

 

 

'Woosh's' motive in throwing up these questions is in the nature of flamebaiting, looking for argument in what he wrongly describes as debate. Clearly, no lay person has all the answers in the absence of information, particularly that of a scientific or forensic nature but 'Woosh' chooses to ask questions better directed towards those who have chosen to make it their professional business to deal in such matters. They are fair game and should be interrogated, given the history of politicians, both local and national, in matters of housing, fire safety provision, policing, health services and all the other ancillary matters connected with government.

 

There is a duty of care issue which these politicians seek every opportunity to deny and avoid and that is why it is right that ordinary members of the public must have their fears articulated on every forum and platform available. Social media reflects much of the opinion of those without the money, status or influence to otherwise bring about change in our society.

 

'Woosh' has, at every opportunity, chosen to defend the establishment and has repeatedly articulated his faith in the now largely discredited 'Brexit' project. Like a group of other tory supporters on this site, 'Woosh' cannot contain his hatred for socialism.

 

Tom

'Danidl', I'm sure you didn't mean it so but your comment could easily be viewed as racist.

 

Leaving that aside, what you refer to as 'ungracious' comments by me towards 'Woosh' were based on my perception of his repeated unanswerable questions (by any lay commentator) on the events at Grenfell Tower and the aftermath.

 

I have just had a look back and here are some examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then a statement like this thrown in!

 

 

 

'Woosh's' motive in throwing up these questions is in the nature of flamebaiting, looking for argument in what he wrongly describes as debate. Clearly, no lay person has all the answers in the absence of information, particularly that of a scientific or forensic nature but 'Woosh' chooses to ask questions better directed towards those who have chosen to make it their professional business to deal in such matters. They are fair game and should be interrogated, given the history of politicians, both local and national, in matters of housing, fire safety provision, policing, health services and all the other ancillary matters connected with government.

 

There is a duty of care issue which these politicians seek every opportunity to deny and avoid and that is why it is right that ordinary members of the public must have their fears articulated on every forum and platform available. Social media reflects much of the opinion of those without the money, status or influence to otherwise bring about change in our society.

 

'Woosh' has, at every opportunity, chosen to defend the establishment and has repeatedly articulated his faith in the now largely discredited 'Brexit' project. Like a group of other tory supporters on this site, 'Woosh' cannot contain his hatred for socialism.

 

Tom

Tom

I apologise for the delay in responding, but I had other more urgent tasks.

I would hope that my comment regarding French responses versus English responses would not be viewed as racist. It was intended to convey a difference in the two educational systems, where in France logic is a formal learning activity at school, following Descartes. Woosh s process of demanding definite answers to specific questions is a product of this philosophical model.

Tom

I apologise for the delay in responding, but I had other more urgent tasks.

I would hope that my comment regarding French responses versus English responses would not be viewed as racist. It was intended to convey a difference in the two educational systems, where in France logic is a formal learning activity at school, following Descartes. Woosh s process of demanding definite answers to specific questions is a product of this philosophical model.

 

There is no need for any apology 'Danidl' as we all have other things to do of far greater importance than populating this thread with our heartfelt views.

 

I did understand the point you were making but so many of our 'Brexit' supporters in the UK have very negative views of the French people generally, (something that manifested itself very frequently when I was canvassing for the 'Remain' movement around the Home Counties during the lead-up to the referendum.) Lots of anti-French and German verbal abuse in any discussion about 'Brexit' was the rule rather than the exception. Equally, racist views about Syrians and Iraqis, Afghans, eastern Europeans, Indians and Pakistanis were prevalent among the Wetherspoon's 'patriots' full of Dutch courage...(no pun intended!)

 

Any comments even bordering on the critical of such people are lapped up by the kind of people to whom I refer - they loved the Farage parables!

 

Even last weekend, I did a stint on a 'Britain in Europe' stall but on that occasion, there was virtually none of the kind of abuse experienced previously. Most encouragingly, 31 people signed up to join our area movement and the general consensus of those was that things have changed and we never had enough information prior to the referendum.

 

Many expressed fears about the economy and a shrinkage in the job market in the next few years plus the price increases already in the system while pay rises are risible.

 

The strongest pro-'Brexit' remark came from Mr Shavenhead with tattoos replacing hair who strutted up with his Staffie-cross, shouting, 'Oi! Wot part of 'Brexit' don't you understand? We 'ad the vote an' you lost.' His raised voice attracted the attention of a couple of my ex-military colleagues enjoying their burgers while on their break and on seeing them stand up, he kindly disengaged from any further interrogation.

 

Tom

Mike Sivier of 'Vox Political' captures the gist of a report from 'The Independent' in this article. Once again, it reveals an area where questions need to be asked of many individuals but we also need to examine this current government's attitude towards 'whistleblowers'.

 

There is probably only a very fine line between 'tragic accident' and 'culpable homicide' but this case may yet define such a distinction for future generations.

 

did-kensington-council-bury-fire-risk-assessment-on-advice-of-man-who-took-250k-for-writing-it

 

Tom

Did the contractor, Rydon, really put out this statement?

 

 

Tom

They just said on the BBC news channel that £17 million has been raised from all the public donations. Guess how much jas been paid out - that's right, not a single penny. The affected people have to apply to a special organisation to get the money, but nobody told them. Today, there's been 4 applications for payments.

They just said on the BBC news channel that £17 million has been raised from all the public donations. Guess how much jas been paid out - that's right, not a single penny. The affected people have to apply to a special organisation to get the money, but nobody told them. Today, there's been 4 applications for payments.

 

There are so many almost insoluble questions around any of the compensation, official or donated. As so often happens in London, some of the official council tenants were living elsewhere and letting their flat to others, often multiple occupants in each flat with their illegal "landlord" unaware of everyone who would actually be in residence.

 

In order to get more accurate information of who was in the block at the time of the fire, those letting their flat illegally have been promised they won't be prosecuted as they normally would. But what happens about the actual illegal tenants who escaped? Are they entitled to compensation, and if so, how are they to be identified as actually being in residence? I can see scammers familiar with the block coming forward to claim they were in there, just for the cash.

 

This fire has opened multiple Pandora's boxes.

.

Did the contractor, Rydon, really put out this statement?

 

[ATTACH=full]20004[/ATTACH]

 

Tom

Inflammatory statements hurt , but inflammatory materials kill.

There are so many almost insoluble questions around any of the compensation, official or donated. As so often happens in London, some of the official council tenants were living elsewhere and letting their flat to others, often multiple occupants in each flat with their illegal "landlord" unaware of everyone who would actually be in residence.

 

In order to get more accurate information of who was in the block at the time of the fire, those letting their flat illegally have been promised they won't be prosecuted as they normally would. But what happens about the actual illegal tenants who escaped? Are they entitled to compensation, and if so, how are they to be identified as actually being in residence? I can see scammers familiar with the block coming forward to claim they were in there, just for the cash.

 

This fire has opened multiple Pandora's boxes.

.

i was thinking the same thing. I wonder what proportion of the people living there were not official tenants?

 

This is a real problem for landlords. Once the tenancy agreement is signed, there's little you can do to control it. You can't stop tenants letting their "friends" or "family" stay for a few nights.

 

What about the absent tenants, who sublet. The sub-letters got burnt, while the tenant was safely living with his/her girlfriend/boyfriend somewhere else. None of the stuff in the apartment belonged to the tenant. How much compensation should the tenant get?

 

What should a tenant get if he/she hasn't been in the country for three months or more? Will there be any like that?

 

What about the witnesses that had no friends or relations there and didn't live there. Should they be compensated for being traumatised? Now that I remember, I was there too, watching all the poor people burn and jump. It was terrible. I haven't been able to sleep or work since.

 

I tell you what, I wouldn't want to be in charge of sorting that lot out. When I was at school, we had fire drills. When there was an evacuation, everybody was coraled into an evacuation area, so you could see, who was there and who was missing. The idea was that you could see who was still in danger of getting burnt, but of course the missing ones were the pupils who were skiving off somewhere when they were supposed to be in school.

'Planemo', I'm afraid you cannot assure me. Much as I am sure you would like it to be the case, the police service has not changed in any material way over recent decades.

 

Tom

 

Tripe.

 

You have the gall to condemn the very people who strive tirelessley to keep you safe at night, and you would be the first one to call three 9's if you were woken by a shadow in a balaclava next to your bed at 3am. Yet you sit in your ivory tower, and old and bitter human being and see fit to badmouth the very organisation who have been forced to be so transparant they may as well pass their investigation packages and current objectives to Old Tom Towers for ratification. You try to mask your anger with a gutless comment akin to 'the wooden tops are ok, its the brass that are the issue' when in fact its the brass that are under far more pressure (and scrutiny) than the grunts to give results that the public want.

 

No doubt you will have come to your vexacious conclusions with zero experience of what its actually like to work in the force whilst I, unlike you, spent over 11 years protecting and serving people just like you. And don't you dare suggest that the boys on the ground are so gullible to not know what brass are doing or that it is anything other than in the best interests of the public.

 

Have you any idea how much ALL officers are internally held to account, let alone by the public? Do you really have any idea how many people are breathing down the necks of every sworn officer? Or that lower ranks can't/won't challenge instructions/policies from above? Maybe you think that the Police Federation just roll over to whatever comes out of the mouths of brass? No doubt you will have some garbage conspiracy answer to all the above.

 

Although I have recently left, it now thankfully affords me the ability to speak my mind about individuals like yourself. Contrary to what you might like to hear from an ex bobby, every single officer (yes and that includes rank) I met in those 11 years was nothing short of an honourable, decent, upstanding individual who would put their life on the line to save yours, and would sacrifice their own (and family) time on a daily basis, going beyond their tour of duties to try and maintain resilience for people like you who no doubt are of the 'why arent you out catching real criminals?' variety.

 

The rest of your post re crime fighting policies and police being 'protectors of the elite' is so far off the mark I cannot even bring myself to try and educate you. You will only ever see what you want to see and trying to change that is futile.

 

Once again your vitriolic bile has forced me to abstain from further posting on yet another thread you have decided to litter with your 'words of wisdom' because I have neither the time nor inclination to argue with someone whose mind is so choked with hate it will never be freed.

Brilliant last post.Well said Planemo.

Sounds like a bully to me.

Sounds like a bully to me.

 

But you never see fault in Tom's insulting ??

Tom is the bully.

Well said Planemo,

ignore Croxden, he is just another one of Lenin's 'Willing Army of naïve fools.'

After cremation o

 

Are you expecting a result?

It'll be kicked into the long grass.

 

 

What a filthy thing to say.

 

 

"The Grenfell inquiry will be a stitch-up. Here’s why"

"A public inquiry where the government chooses charges, judge and jury puts the bonfire of regulations outside the frame. An independent commission is needed."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/grenfell-fire-public-inquiry-stitch-up-red-tape-regulation-policy-exchange

What's the point of referencing things from the Guardian, you might as well quote from The Socialist Worker or The Beano.

 

I read in the Facist Times that Theresa may was the best person to sort out this mess, so that Guardian article must be wrong.

Tripe.

 

'Planemo', you could have left your opinion right there but no, you chose to launch into a rant which, you will see from the warm support you received from the right-wing extremists in this thread, was lapped up by them.

 

In truth, I ought to thank you for reinforcing the view I hold about the police, shared by large numbers of the population. Your rant said far more about you than about me but......

 

 

......let's just say I feel entirely vindicated.

 

Your extensive, 30-year career with the police service.....no, sorry - you said 11 years, my mistake - has obviously given you the ability to quickly identify and pigeon-hole anti-fascists, the kind of people who seem to represent a threat to ordinary citizens, the state and the monarchy in your view.

 

You should be aware that you are not the only contributor to this forum who has served the country but not all police officers are so conditioned that they cannot see the wood for the trees. Eleven years!....my brother used to tease me about how much service I had in and when I told him, his reply was always, 'When I was at sea, I spent more time on one wave than you've got in the job!'

 

Anyway, thanks once again 'Planemo' for your efforts on my behalf during your short-service career. I shall sleep soundly in my bed tonight knowing that today's police service is staffed entirely by dedicated, incorruptible heroes.

 

Tom

Edited July 5, 20178 yr by oldtom

dear oldtom,

 

when you run out of arguments, you simply call people who disagree with you 'extremists' except they don't return the compliment.

Tom,s assessment of both right wing and warm support is rather skewed.

Planemo on his resume of Tom received 5 likes, think its a record for a critical post about an individual, and I don't think any of the 5 are right wing at all, let alone extremist.

Very typical reply from Tom. He just can not see the argument he causes and what's more to point the damage he inflicts on left wing's standing.

Tripe.

 

You have the gall to condemn the very people who strive tirelessley to keep you safe at night, and you would be the first one to call three 9's if you were woken by a shadow in a balaclava next to your bed at 3am. Yet you sit in your ivory tower, and old and bitter human being and see fit to badmouth the very organisation who have been forced to be so transparant they may as well pass their investigation packages and current objectives to Old Tom Towers for ratification. You try to mask your anger with a gutless comment akin to 'the wooden tops are ok, its the brass that are the issue' when in fact its the brass that are under far more pressure (and scrutiny) than the grunts to give results that the public want.

 

No doubt you will have come to your vexacious conclusions with zero experience of what its actually like to work in the force whilst I, unlike you, spent over 11 years protecting and serving people just like you. And don't you dare suggest that the boys on the ground are so gullible to not know what brass are doing or that it is anything other than in the best interests of the public.

 

Have you any idea how much ALL officers are internally held to account, let alone by the public? Do you really have any idea how many people are breathing down the necks of every sworn officer? Or that lower ranks can't/won't challenge instructions/policies from above? Maybe you think that the Police Federation just roll over to whatever comes out of the mouths of brass? No doubt you will have some garbage conspiracy answer to all the above.

 

Although I have recently left, it now thankfully affords me the ability to speak my mind about individuals like yourself. Contrary to what you might like to hear from an ex bobby, every single officer (yes and that includes rank) I met in those 11 years was nothing short of an honourable, decent, upstanding individual who would put their life on the line to save yours, and would sacrifice their own (and family) time on a daily basis, going beyond their tour of duties to try and maintain resilience for people like you who no doubt are of the 'why arent you out catching real criminals?' variety.

 

The rest of your post re crime fighting policies and police being 'protectors of the elite' is so far off the mark I cannot even bring myself to try and educate you. You will only ever see what you want to see and trying to change that is futile.

 

Once again your vitriolic bile has forced me to abstain from further posting on yet another thread you have decided to litter with your 'words of wisdom' because I have neither the time nor inclination to argue with someone whose mind is so choked with hate it will never be freed.

 

The vast majority of police I have had dealing with would match planemo criteria. Decent, helpful and courageous. Where there is a difficulty is when anything which might affect the esprit de corps.. insulting behaviour to the force etc. Because they are forced to rely on their colleagues, sometimes against an unappreciative public , spitting vile insults and worse, a sense of alienation can result.

When politics enter the equation, even the most decent of police find it difficult to shop a colleague. assaults on prisoners while handcuffed and in police custody are not unknown.

While it will not be common knowledge in England, there was a court case in Ireland, which terminated this week. A government minister had been trapped in a car , along with her assistant, by a group protesting against water charges. Her police escort were unable to release her for some two hours, and she was subjected to vile insults, and fortunately no physical abuse.

The state prosecution service brought a charge of imprisonment against a number of people, including a left wing TD (MP). Many other lighter charges could have been brought instead. Suffice to say that there was significantly different evidence presented by the police, than that on video records. which had there not been ample contradictory video evidence might have resulted in convictions.

The Police consists of a cross-section of our society and is to be expected that it will contain many brave officers and many who carry out their duties in a fair and competent manner and will also contain some who are corrupt, who are racist and who fail in their duty. Proof ...if proof were needed...can be easily found and one just has to consider the Hillsborough disaster or the unlawful jailing of Scottish miners during the coal strike.

Two officers have recently been jailed and two dismissed from the Force as a result of ignoring calls for help from a man who was murdered by his neighbour and who himself was arrested by the same officers.....so please lets get real.... the Police do a job which most of us would reject and deserve our support, but lets have no uncritical, over the top praise which defies reality.

In Ireland a Government Minister has had to resign following the persecution of a Police Sergeant by seniors, he was unwise enough to whistle-blow on a scandal involving senior Police officers crushing traffic offences by politicians. As with any organised group, be it the Church, the Army or any other institution, the first reaction to any criticism is to ignore or attempt to silence the critic in order to maintain the status of the group.

can be easily found and one just has to consider the Hillsborough disaster or the unlawful jailing of Scottish miners during the coal strike.

 

But look at the delay and denial before the failures & coverups were recognised!

 

I had a brush with the law during the miners strike as I was a student at Leicester at that time and was visiting home on a motorcycle registered in Leicester which flagged up to police in Essex who were watching over ports where protests were happening. They suspected I was a striking miner and this was all they needed to know to come down on me...

 

Still I have high regard for the police due to job they do in difficult circumstances but there are a minority of jobs worths and dodgy ones in their ranks that hopefully sooner rather than later eventually get weeded out.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-force-tries-to-stop-corrupt-officer-getting-his-pension-1974568.html

Just as I intimated above, they said on the TV today, that some people are returning from their holidays after 3 weeks and wondering what they're supposed to do. Holiday? Three weeks? Sounds a bit suspicious to me. I'm wondering how many of the tenants were on "holiday" in Nigeria, maybe as a guest of that prince, who keeps wanting to buy my Ebay stuff for more than I advertise it, while their friends stayed in the apartment to look after it for security reasons. who should get the compensation money - the burnt friends or the absent tenants, or both?

 

I think Flecc has a point: This event is going to open up a fair can of worms. The problem is, it's going to be career suicide for anybody that points out problems on the tenants' side.

The problem is, it's going to be career suicide for anybody that points out problems on the tenants' side.

 

Indeed, as it's proved to be now for those who attempted to put any of the blame on the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough. A disaster can create untouchables.

.