Much as I'd like to see the present apology for a government unseated and replaced by a Labour-led administration, I really feel that the current news of the London fire disaster should remain a separate issue from my many criticisms contained in the 'Brexit' thread.

 

One positive I have noted in the reporting of this tragedy has been the controlled release of confirmed fatalities rather than the previous, very deliberate shock figures produced by appalling journalists who seem to believe they are important and only through hyperbole, can they grab the attention of the public, as if bigger numbers = bigger readership/bigger viewing figures and greater respect.

 

I think, by now, everyone has come to understand that the final body count is likely to be hugely greater than the present tally of 17. Until recovery teams are able to access all parts of the wreckage and remove all human remains, we will not know the final tally but there are other issues emerging in the aftermath which are quite disturbing. For example, there was a serious fire in 2009 and it seems that the lessons from that were never learned, or perhaps never applied to subsequent tower block improvements. Some may have seen this TV interview clip but for those who haven't, it raises some questions, perhaps the most important of which is the PM's immediate call for a public inquiry. Certainly, there is a need for a full investigation into the matter but a public inquiry may not be the best way to determine the cause and whether or not there may be a case for a corporate manslaughter prosecution.

 

Here is the short interview clip with Kirsty Wark asking the questions:

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1233832916738898

 

Tom

Edited June 16, 20178 yr by oldtom

This incident just shows yet again what a complete and utter shambles our planning/ building reg implementation is in.

Recently renovated a property on East Coast. Not allowed plastic windows,double glazing or a roof light...because its visible from nearby church! ( about a mile away) but these folk are allowed to build a tower block with no sprinkler system, no alarm and use cladding allegedly to save £2 per square metre, which is a known fire hazard and banned in States. ( not sure about in EU), and only a single staircase, with policy poor fire fighters can rescue everyone in event of a fire in it. Barmy.

I believe with death toll over 6 it becomes largest loss of life to fire in peacetime in England.( Great fire of London claimed 6 lives, which says something about modern society)

Simply appalling on all fronts. Trouble is the investigation will find some individual at fault ( which could be case) but whatever individuals have or have not done this terrible incident shows a failing in systems , legislation and it implementation. Ofcourse individuals will cut corners to make more money. Legislation is there to prevent it.

We should not be searching for individuals to carry blame . We should be implementing rules already in place ??

Here is the difference between Jeremy Corbyn's and Theresa May's visits to Grenfell tower in two pictures.

 

Those pictures depict the major difference between compassionate socialism and fascism. The former describes a political leader interacting with a member of the public whereas the latter shows a political leader who only ever appears in public surrounded by people in uniform.

 

 

He is for the many; she is for the few.

 

Tom

Edited June 16, 20178 yr by oldtom

The PM needs to answer some serious questions concerning herself. This short list is just for starters and I'm sure I am not the only one who considers her performance in every aspect of her conduct in several matters simply inexcusable.

 

 

Tom

You guys are absolutely dispicable to use this incident to try and promote your own political agenda.

 

It doesn't matter who's in the government, they have to make decisions that affect people's lives on a daily basis. Whatever regulations are made, are done based on risk and probability. You can always get situations that weren't anticipated and they fall outside norms of probability.

 

All things considered, our regulations seem to do more than a good job. This is nothing to do with government and nothing to do with Theresa May or any other politician.

I certainly was not making any political statements about Brexit or labour/ tory faults. To be fair I don't think Tom was either. The questions he raised would be applicable who ever in power.

You guys are absolutely dispicable to use this incident to try and promote your own political agenda.

 

It doesn't matter who's in the government, they have to make decisions that affect people's lives on a daily basis. Whatever regulations are made, are done based on risk and probability. You can always get situations that weren't anticipated and they fall outside norms of probability.

 

All things considered, our regulations seem to do more than a good job. This is nothing to do with government and nothing to do with Theresa May or any other politician.

 

I am inclined to agree with you d8veh, but there are certain aspects of this current catastrophic event which may have a political dimension. It is very evident that the external cladding supported combustion. Other jurisdictions have more stringent regulations on this. It is suggested that the failure to include a sprinkler system, probably hampered exiting the building. It has been reported that a previous minister had argued that it was not the role of government to regulate on such matters. There are suggestions that the fire alarms were ineffective,

There are suggestions that the policy of outsourcing buildings work from what used to be council works departments to outside contractors has resulted in fragmentation of responsibility.. and that was certainly a political decision.

Now I have no particular interest in which party governs in the UK, but the questions I have identified need to be clarified.

Isn't there a history of public enquiries never getting to the truth until many years later?

It is very evident that the external cladding supported combustion.

 

20 high rise buildings in London are believed to have the same type of cladding.

 

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/06/16/20-london-high-rises-with-grenfell-cladding-system/

 

The recently built university campus residence block next to us also have rain cladding cassettes but without insulation.

I certainly was not making any political statements about Brexit or labour/ tory faults. To be fair I don't think Tom was either. The questions he raised would be applicable who ever in power.

Showing pictures of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbin is political.

You guys are absolutely dispicable to use this incident to try and promote your own political agenda.

 

It doesn't matter who's in the government, they have to make decisions that affect people's lives on a daily basis. Whatever regulations are made, are done based on risk and probability. You can always get situations that weren't anticipated and they fall outside norms of probability.

 

All things considered, our regulations seem to do more than a good job. This is nothing to do with government and nothing to do with Theresa May or any other politician.

 

Normally, I respect your views 'D8veh' on those matters to which you contribute with your wide breadth of knowledge. On this isssue, I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong. First of all, in my case, if the government can inflict their sordid agendas day in and day out via their media wing, then any opportunity to counter that propaganda drive should be taken up by every decent citizen.

 

When that government is led by an incompetent woman who cannot interface with the general public and dithers over every pressing matter for which she has executive responsibility, then it is the duty of every subject to speak out where there is obvious and attributable wrong.

 

The very regulations in which you happily put your faith will be forensically examined in another forum at a later date but I confidently predict that negligence will be demonstrated to be a major factor in that fire. If you were a Londoner, you would have a very acute awareness of the dangers posed by the construction methods and materials used in high-rise developments following the 2009 tragedy. There are questions which need to be asked of a variety of individuals, local authority representatives and builders so it behoves all those who are politically active to raise these matters at every opportunity, as the media will attempt to fill our heads with irrelevant nonsense to distract us rather than expose the truth if left to their own devices.

 

You might wish to reconsider your view 'D8veh' when you reflect on how your contribution smacks of wholehearted support for a floundering government at a time when the general public really want answers to questions, particularly those who also live in high-rise tower blocks. Perhaps, if corruption were uncovered in the examination of all the facts, you might agree that it is useful to have an opposition movement not prepared to allow a useless government to carry on regardless, unchallenged.

 

I'm really disappointed in your stance on this 'D8veh', especially as I made a point of not mixing this shocking tragedy with the 'Brexit' forum.

 

Tom

Showing pictures of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbin is political.

 

The government is political!

 

Tom

The one thing about this issue that has always concerned me is that commercial high rise is commonly equipped with a sprinkler system, residential high rise isn't.

 

That says a lot about what our society values.

.

You guys are absolutely dispicable to use this incident to try and promote your own political agenda.

 

Totally, totally agree,

 

Tom

Here is the difference between Jeremy Corbyn's and Theresa May's visits to Grenfell tower in two pictures.

 

Those pictures depict the major difference between compassionate socialism and fascism. The former describes a political leader interacting with a member of the public whereas the latter shows a political leader who only ever appears in public surrounded by people in uniform.

 

[ATTACH=full]19757[/ATTACH]

 

He is for the many; she is for the few.

 

Tom

 

You just can`t help yourself can you?

 

How low can you get?

 

Using an awful human tragedy to score some petty political point.

 

What a nasty piece of work

The one thing about this issue that has always concerned me is that commercial high rise is commonly equipped with a sprinkler system, residential high rise isn't.

 

That says a lot about what our society values.

.

.. could this be related to the factories act and health and safety at work?. I noted that industrial sprinklers are listed against an EN code as well as BSI code whereas domestic installations have just a BSI code.

I note that the queen managed to actually speak to some of those affected by the Grenfell Tower tragedy - if I were Theresa May, I'd be both embarrassed and ashamed.

 

Tom

.. could this be related to the factories act and health and safety at work?

 

Sprinklers, or their absence, represent one issue of importance. Another issue is that there is speculation that the insulating panels which contributed to the rapid spread of the fire were not fire-retardant. This, and I repeat the word, speculation, also indicates that there are two better grades of the same panels produced by the maker which are in fact fire-retardant.

 

One hopes such allegations will be dispelled in due course but if not, then some accountability needs to be brought to light as to why such an unsuitable material was chosen.

 

Tom

I note that the queen managed to actually speak to some of those affected by the Grenfell Tower tragedy - if I were Theresa May, I'd be both embarrassed and ashamed.

 

Tom

..Tom there are many personal styles is behaviour, and ms May might very well be a shy person less able to empathise than another. It does not imply that she is incapable of feeling, just an inability to publicly express it. Mr Corbyn may well have a different personality. I don't think this is the time or place to score points.

..Tom there are many personal styles is behaviour, and ms May might very well be a shy person less able to empathise than another. It does not imply that she is incapable of feeling, just an inability to publicly express it. Mr Corbyn may well have a different personality. I don't think this is the time or place to score points.

 

I think you and the others of similar opinion need to get yourselves down to North Ken and speak to those affected - I'm sure they will be absolutely delighted to hear your views on the PM and on all the other aspects of what they very much consider a political failure.

 

Tom

I think you and the others of similar opinion need to get yourselves down to North Ken and speak to those affected - I'm sure they will be absolutely delighted to hear your views on the PM and on all the other aspects of what they very much consider a political failure.

 

Tom

The catastrophe was an engineering failure, primarily, what other types of failure led up to it be they regulatory, political, economic dogma can be dissected later, and hopefully if persons were responsible, they need to be prosecuted and castigated. At this stage, when death tolls are not even available and people are still in shock, disbelief and unconsolable anger is not the time to make poIitical statements, that time will come but it's a not yet.

 

I have no views on your countries PM , so please do not lump me in with your political opponents.

It has often concerned me how fire is fought in hire rise buildings.

Anyone who has travelled to Shanghai must have seen the hundreds,maybe thousands of 20 storey plus x 6 flats each storey buildings.

I wonder how fire is fought in these buildings. I don't think they have sprinklers but logic would say that some means of getting water to the top via insulated pipes would help.

I understand that the fire brigade have to fight these fires from the ground up.

I was once in a hotel in Belgium on about the 7th floor, the personal escape system was a braked wire drum attached to the hotel room wall, you put a harness and jumped!

Just come back today, EasyJet had a collection on the plane towards helping the victims of Grenfell, it appeared well contributed .

KudosDave

Just come back today, EasyJet had a collection on the plane towards helping the victims of Grenfell, it appeared well contributed

 

I doubt money will be a problem for the victims, since the government has set up a £5 million fund for them. Grenfell Tower had 120 flats, so that averages nearly £42,000 per home. Equivalent rental and mostly council flats should easily be furnished and re-equipped with that much money.

 

Their personal losses and the horrific experience they lived through can never be compensated, but at least they have no material worries now.

.

I doubt money will be a problem for the victims, since the government has set up a £5 million fund for them. Grenfell Tower had 120 flats, so that averages nearly £42,000 per home. Equivalent rental and mostly council flats should easily be furnished and re-equipped with that much money.

.

good luck down the dwp then as that means no home or money pmsl

good luck down the dwp then as that means no home or money pmsl

 

Not so, their council and the government have promised they will be rehomed in the same area, so the council tenants will continue with rent etc as before. I'm quite sure the grant money for replacements will not be assessed as if it were income or capital, given the current public mood that would create a riot. We're close to that now.

 

And it shouldn't be forgotten that many of the flats were privately owned by employed people with means, not on benefits.

.

.

you watch there will be a riot dwp are a law on to them self and wont give a shite