*+-

 

Danidl,

The All Ireland referenda only allowed Irish people to vote, exactly what has taken place in Catalunya.

Yet you seem to suggest that all of Spain should have been involved in the Catalonian referendum?

Therefore, should all of the UK have participated in the Irish votes and also the Scottish vote?

 

 

I am not suggesting , I am asserting that because the Spanish constitution , to which the Catalans were apparently highly delighted to accept in 1978, stated that Spain was indivisible, that other regions have a vested interest and yes would have a right to vote.

However any such vote would currently be unconstitutional as it goes against an article in the constitution. What would be needed before that is a vote by all Spain to amend their constitution . Perhaps the Catalans should have canvassed their colleagues and fellow citizens in the other regions when the reforms agreed/ wrestled? by / from the government were deemed unconstitutional.

In regard to the irish and Scottish cases and their desire to leave the UK... maybe.

That would be a case for your constitution.. . Except you don't have one.

The competent authority .. The U.K. parliament decided not to consult its own people and accepted that the MPs spoke for them.

The way to change a consitution is to hold a referendum. Have the Catalans canvassed sufficient support , particularly outside their region to start that process?

 

I couldn't say 'Danidl' but while it is all very well for you (or I) to sit and objectively pontificate about these events, as I mentioned previously, democracies that fail to take account of all their peoples are always susceptible to public unrest. A caring government will enter into dialogue with people who feel they have been disenfranchised by government and try to bring about an accord. The Spanish government is a hard-line outfit, most of its senior members having been brought up under Franco's reign when public order was maintained through brutal violence or the threat of violence as required.

 

I have spent part of each year since the early 1990s in my own home in the province of Almeria which was neglected by the Spanish government for decades even after the demise of Franco.

 

The citizens of Almeria endured decades under Franco starved of funding for infrastructure, health care, schools or indeed anything. The level of poverty there until the mid-90s was almost third-world and it was a deliberate act of political brutality because the people of Almeria held out against Franco's troops and theirs was the last region of Spain to capitulate. That was probably on account of the fact that Franco had bigger fish to fry in order to conquer all opposition and there was no significant strategic value in committing lots of resources to defeat a rag-tag bunch of peasant farmers in the south-east.

 

After he became the de facto leader of Spain, Franco deliberately gave the people of Almeria nothing and plenty of it! Any funding was directed to Madrid and to much of the northern part of the country while people in much of the south scratched a living from the soil and reared a little livestock. Even after 1975, nothing much changed for the people of Almeria although other parts of Andalusia did a little better.

 

One feature of the Franco years which has remained omnipresent until this day is Franco's Guardia Civil, noted for their extreme violence in the 1930s. They are not a normal police service in any way - paramilitary mercenaries would be a better description - behaving as if they are answerable to no-one. The 'Black and Tans' of 1920 Ireland would be a close approximation. We have just witnessed in Spain those paid thugs resort to the old tactics of the Franco era. They should have been disbanded immediately after Franco's death.

 

This current government is not too far removed from the Franco model of government and I fear we may not have witnessed the last civil unrest because many large groups of people in Spain do feel disenfranchised even though there is ostensibly a democracy in place.

 

Tom

Edited October 3, 20178 yr by oldtom

I am not suggesting , I am asserting that because the Spanish constitution , to which the Catalans were apparently highly delighted to accept in 1978, stated that Spain was indivisible, that other regions have a vested interest and yes would have a right to vote.

 

it is not so black and white.

the local government has tried to negotiate ever since their declaration of the Initiation of the Process of Independence of Catalonia in 2015.

their demand fell on deaf ears, so their next step is to organize a referendum.

The Madrid government cannot use the police to brutalize people who want to vote. Take pictures of the voters and prosecute them, yes, but beating them up and firing rubber bullets at voters? it's not acceptable in the 21st century anymore.

it is not so black and white.

the local government has tried to negotiate ever since their declaration of the Initiation of the Process of Independence of Catalonia in 2015.

their demand fell on deaf ears, so their next step is to organize a referendum.

The Madrid government cannot use the police to brutalize people who want to vote. Take pictures of the voters and prosecute them, yes, but beating them up and firing rubber bullets at voters? it's not acceptable in the 21st century anymore.

 

The process of change by referendum of a constitution is the correct way and is actually black and white. It is one of the few things which is.

 

I am not excusing or condoning the authorities in Madrid,. Sending in riot police is not the way to win hearts and minds. ... But I can list any number of other countries including my own, yours and your adopted country where such actions have been taken. Have you not also seen the blood streaming down the faces after anti austerity marches, after football matches, after anti globalisation marches, after political marches Oldtom makes a similar point and in that I can agree, that the Central government were much too quick to adopt that overt police action.

Oldtom makes another point that this region , the northern regions were more favoured by Madrid than the southern regions he was familiar with. Don't sound like downtrodden to me.

 

Should Normandy want to secede? Should Cornwall, Should Brittany, and I am aware that there is a quasi independence movement there for decades, by deciding to have a vote of the people in their region, no they are constitutionally bound to the rest of the state.

 

My reading would have that the Initiation of the Process of Independence of Catalonia in 2015. resulted from a prior failure to have augmented autonomy, as agreed with the central government, which fell foul of the constitution. Am I wrong?. If it were that case, the only path open is a campaign to remove that provision from the constitution. Running a vote as they did , was obviously the wrong and provocative thing to do.

. It would not have been within the gift of the government to negotiate . Governments have to be bound by constitutions.. its the only thing standing between the citizenry and tyranny. As I have said before, the strong don't need the law to protect them, the weak do....

Now I have made my point a few times and there is no more value in my repeating myself.

The BBC news website has this from a few hours ago in Barcelona:

 

world-europe-41479048

 

Tom

If it were that case, the only path open is a campaign to remove that provision from the constitution. Running a vote as they did , was obviously the wrong and provocative thing to do.

the local government only has to say that the referendum is not binding.

The result will form the basis for further negotiation.

There is no need for Madrid to jump the gun and refer them to the constitutional court. Madrid knew that the result of the referendum will consolidate the independent movement.

Just look at the polls here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_polls

 

The yes camp leads by a clear margin.

I couldn't say 'Danidl' but while it is all very well for you (or I) to sit and objectively pontificate about these events, as I mentioned previously, democracies that fail to take account of all their peoples are always susceptible to public unrest. A caring government will enter into dialogue with people who feel they have been disenfranchised by government and try to bring about an accord. The Spanish government is a hard-line outfit, most of its senior members having been brought up under Franco's reign when public order was maintained through brutal violence or the threat of violence as required.

 

I have spent part of each year since the early 1990s in my own home in the province of Almeria which was neglected by the Spanish government for decades even after the demise of Franco.

 

The citizens of Almeria endured decades under Franco starved of funding for infrastructure, health care, schools or indeed anything. The level of poverty there until the mid-90s was almost third-world and it was a deliberate act of political brutality because the people of Almeria held out against Franco's troops and theirs was the last region of Spain to capitulate. That was probably on account of the fact that Franco had bigger fish to fry in order to conquer all opposition and there was no significant strategic value in committing lots of resources to defeat a rag-tag bunch of peasant farmers in the south-east.

 

After he became the de facto leader of Spain, Franco deliberately gave the people of Almeria nothing and plenty of it! Any funding was directed to Madrid and to much of the northern part of the country while people in much of the south scratched a living from the soil and reared a little livestock. Even after 1975, nothing much changed for the people of Almeria although other parts of Andalusia did a little better.

 

One feature of the Franco years which has remained omnipresent until this day is Franco's Guardia Civil, noted for their extreme violence in the 1930s. They are not a normal police service in any way - paramilitary mercenaries would be a better description - behaving as if they are answerable to no-one. The 'Black and Tans' of 1920 Ireland would be a close approximation. We have just witnessed in Spain those paid thugs resort to the old tactics of the Franco era. They should have been disbanded immediately after Franco's death.

 

This current government is not too far removed from the Franco model of government and I fear we may not have witnessed the last civil unrest because many large groups of people in Spain do feel disenfranchised even though there is ostensibly a democracy in place.

 

Tom

Spain is not a country I have much familiarity with, I have a better feel for France. . As in my slightly earlier response , I don't think bringing riot police was a very subtle move.

I did hear a story some years ago which might explain the poverty. Its veracity I cannot confirm.

 

In this narrative Spain would have retained much of the silver and Gold obtained by their south American adventures ., even into the 20th. century.

The Republican forces had taken control of the Treasury, and when they felt that they were in danger of being ousted by Franco, they sent this bullion by train to their comrades in Russia , their fellow socialists for safekeeping. .

When the Spanish Central bank requested it back, after the cession of violence, The response was " What Train?"

 

 

I fear we may not have witnessed the last civil unrest because many large groups of people in Spain do feel disenfranchised even though there is ostensibly a democracy in place.

 

Tom

I fear that it will be like Dublin in the 1920's

Spain is not a country I have much familiarity with, I have a better feel for France. . As in my slightly earlier response , I don't think bringing riot police was a very subtle move.

I did hear a story some years ago which might explain the poverty. Its veracity I cannot confirm.

 

In this narrative Spain would have retained much of the silver and Gold obtained by their south American adventures ., even into the 20th. century.

The Republican forces had taken control of the Treasury, and when they felt that they were in danger of being ousted by Franco, they sent this bullion by train to their comrades in Russia , their fellow socialists for safekeeping. .

When the Spanish Central bank requested it back, after the cession of violence, The response was " What Train?"

 

I have heard it to. It's a good story. Highly unbelievable though.

 

About 43% of Catalans want independence. Maybe they are the Catalan born and bred? Native Catalans are in the minority:

 

In 1900, the population of Catalonia was 1,966,382 people and in 1970 it was 5,122,567. The sizeable increase of the population was due to the demographic boom in Spain during the 60s and early 70s as well as in consequence of large-scale internal migration from the rural economically weak regions to its more prospering industrial cities. In Catalonia that wave of internal migration arrived from several regions of Spain, especially from Andalusia, Murcia and Extremadura.

 

Immigrants from other countries settled in Catalonia in the 1990s and 2000s; a large percentage came from Africa and Latin America, and smaller numbers from Asia and Eastern Europe, often settling in urban centers such as Barcelona and industrial areas.

Increasingly, I am finding that I like the slant of Craig Murray, historian and human rights activist, on all matters political.

 

Here he looks disapprovingly at the mainstream media with regard to their coverage of events in Catalonia on Sunday:

 

gross-dishonesty-mainstream-media-catalonia

 

Tom

Great Scot!.....Well, two of them actually:

 

"The socialism I believe in, is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life."

 

- Bill Shankly

 

 

Good coaches and born into socialism. If only Fergie would send back his knighthood and tell them it doesn't fit!

 

Tom

A few hundred! I had to quote this separately since it was so funny.

 

London received 19 million visitors last year, many of whom stayed for a number of days. That's nearly a third of the UK population and an average of 52,000 new visitors a day, and you can add all the business people and others unrecorded coming in.

.

Not so easy when you want to stay in a particular part of London.

But my point was that when choosing a venue, London is so easy, everybody can easily get there, even from remote Scottish islands, IOM, NI etc.

But for many, the sheer size of London is intimidating and to offer an Hotel miles from the venue and an expensive taxi ride away is not so simple.

By the way, I have never really managed to understand the Docklands light railway, have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is, and generally have travelled free because of the lack of help.

The DART on the other hand is simple and easy to understand and pay for.

Not so easy when you want to stay in a particular part of London.

But my point was that when choosing a venue, London is so easy, everybody can easily get there, even from remote Scottish islands, IOM, NI etc.

But for many, the sheer size of London is intimidating and to offer an Hotel miles from the venue and an expensive taxi ride away is not so simple.

By the way, I have never really managed to understand the Docklands light railway, have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is, and generally have travelled free because of the lack of help.

The DART on the other hand is simple and easy to understand and pay for.

DART??

Anyway, back to Spain.

I have been rather shocked speaking to the only two Spaniards that I know, now resident in Wales.

Not only are they opposed to Catalonian independence, but they supported the CG attacks on voters.

Their view is that the referendum was illegal and subversive, therefore all the voters were criminals and needed to be taught a lesson.

I guess that we make the mistake of projecting our values onto other people.

Their view is that the Gardia Civil are the glue that is necessary to hold Spain together.

Obviously, among the older generations, memories of the Civil War remain, and even if too young to have been around at the time, the post war values are well embedded in them, and fear of those times ever returning allow them to the view the weekends excesses favourably.

Tom,

Next time you are in Spain, it might be helpful to explore these matters with your Spanish friends and let us know if they are a true reflection of Spanish attitudes, or the aberrations of ex-pat Spaniards.

Mike.

Ps. The actions of the CG seemed to me repressive, and I heard on a live leak the crowd were shouting 'Franco'

So, my opinion is that anti democratic Fascism is present in Spain.

To me, the right of a peoples to self determination is paramount ( I once was a Welsh Republican)

DART??

Dublin Area Rapid Transit

have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is,

 

Its just a contactless card that contains cash value that gets deducted as you use it. You get a card from many outlets or online and add value to it at the same outlets as it's needed, or you can have it top itself up from your bank etc as needed, up to a level you set.

 

Simple, easy to use and trouble free for travel on on buses, trams, underground etc.

 

The young up to 16 (or 18 if in full time education) and the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.

.

I have been rather shocked speaking to the only two Spaniards that I know, now resident in Wales.

Not only are they opposed to Catalonian independence, but they supported the CG attacks on voters.

Their view is that the referendum was illegal and subversive, therefore all the voters were criminals and needed to be taught a lesson.

 

That's very much my view, and why I expressed those organising the referendum as being guilty of treason.

 

For what they desire they should use the democratic processes. If they then still can't achieve what they want that way, either accept that democratic outcome or emigrate to somewhere else.

.

the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.

 

It broke my heart to have to give up my 'London Freedom Pass' on moving away from a London borough. It's a valuable concession and long may it continue.

 

Tom

 

ps Worst move I ever made!

Dublin Area Rapid Transit

Yeah that was what I was hoping it was... We now has luas and it is finally integrated so that it links both North and south of the city and the same smart card works on all three , the dart (trains ), the luas (trams) and buses

Its just a contactless card that contains cash value that gets deducted as you use it. You get a card from many outlets or online and add value to it at the same outlets as it's needed, or you can have it top itself up from your bank etc as needed, up to a level you set.

 

The Dublin version is called a leap card

 

Simple, easy to use and trouble free for travel on on buses, trams, underground etc.

 

The young up to 16 (or 18 if in full time education) and the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.

.

Mine is called Mugi and it gets me on trains and busses in Guipúzcoa.

Don't agree with any type of marches or protests..folk in them seem to think their vote or knowledge of situation is greater than those not protesting...For example the Fracking protesters blocking roads etc. I happen to agree with Fracking so shall I go out and start a counter road block...but then again I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses selling their views when I,m cleaning my car...if they want to do some good in world there are better places to start than my drive...but I don't think they should be battered with rubber projectiles either.

The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC..

To be fair this scenario has been building a while,I,m just surprised the Catalans north of Pyrenees are ( in theory) not involved...

I used term rubber projectiles because describing them as bullets is wrong. A bullet brings to mind a half inch diameter slug of some sort. Rubber bullets are 2inch diameter and 6 inch long...

question for you: should the UK recognize Caltalonia's UDI next week?

I don't think we should because of the low turnout but what do you think?

question for you: should the UK recognize Caltalonia's UDI next week?

I don't think we should because of the low turnout but what do you think?

 

Regardless of the size of the turnout, how can we?

 

We refuse the recognise the Crimean referendum despite it's over 90% Russian population all voting to return to Russia from Ukraine. We refuse to recognise Abkhazia despite their overwhelming desire for previously leaving Russia for independence.

 

Those two surely prevent us recognising any attempt to depart from a sovereign nation. We can't make the rules only on the basis of whether we like a country or not.

.

Edited October 4, 20178 yr by flecc

Don't agree with any type of marches or protests..folk in them seem to think their vote or knowledge of situation is greater than those not protesting...For example the Fracking protesters blocking roads etc. I happen to agree with Fracking so shall I go out and start a counter road block...but then again I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses selling their views when I,m cleaning my car...if they want to do some good in world there are better places to start than my drive...but I don't think they should be battered with rubber projectiles either.

The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC..

To be fair this scenario has been building a while,I,m just surprised the Catalans north of Pyrenees are ( in theory) not involved...

I used term rubber projectiles because describing them as bullets is wrong. A bullet brings to mind a half inch diameter slug of some sort. Rubber bullets are 2inch diameter and 6 inch long...

 

"The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC.. "

The police actions turned a protest vote into protestors, and very likely incited numbers of uncommitted Catalans to cast their lot towards secession. Make no mistake, this was the intended consequence by the organisers of this event. For their part, they are probably regretting that there were not a few fatalities to add to the hall of martyrs. It was a folly by the central authority in Madrid, to play into their hands that way.