Classic example this morning. I was riding along a residential street, heard a siren, looked in my mirror & saw a couple of cars behind me & behind them an ambulance with its blue lights flashing.

Yes- both cars overtook me, forcing the ambulance to overtake the cars overtaking me.

It's not education that some motorists need, first driving lesion - mirror signal manoeuvre.

I assume that drivers do not regard bikes as road vehicles, but rather obstacles to be negotiated, hence the normal rules of the road do not apply

Out of interest, do you drive a car?

Classic example this morning. I was riding along a residential street, heard a siren, looked in my mirror & saw a couple of cars behind me & behind them an ambulance with its blue lights flashing.

Yes- both cars overtook me, forcing the ambulance to overtake the cars overtaking me.

It's not education that some motorists need, first driving lesion - mirror signal manoeuvre.

I assume that drivers do not regard bikes as road vehicles, but rather obstacles to be negotiated, hence the normal rules of the road do not apply

 

Bikes and “road vehicles” are all potential obstacles to be negotiated, I don’t see the distinction.

 

You don’t mention what you did when you became aware of the approaching ambulance?

It won't happen until city and town centres and the routes into them prioritise pedestrians and cyclists (and trams and buses)over cars.

 

Planners should first ask - how do cyclists get in from the suburbs to the city centre without having to mix with road traffic?

 

And if the changes which need to be made to do this increase commute time for motor vehicles then so be it.

Planners should first ask - how do cyclists get in from the suburbs to the city centre without having to mix with road traffic?

 

And if the changes which need to be made to do this increase commute time for motor vehicles then so be it.

 

Politically very difficult though. Nationally there's well over 30 million drivers, almost all driving frequently. There's only 2 million claiming to cycle regularly, and most don't cycle anywhere near as regularly as drivers drive.

 

It has begun to happen in London in a small way with one segregated route from West London into the centre, but London doesn't have the imbalance noted above. We have much lower car ownership rate than the rest of the country and a high level of cycle commuting.

 

Somehow the rest of the country needs to achieve the same first. Here it was the very high cost of the vehicle congestion charge that did the trick, but there's resistance to that elsewhere. Traffic jammed Manchester rejected the idea for example.

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Politically very difficult though. Nationally there's well over 30 million drivers, almost all driving frequently. There's only 2 million claiming to cycle regularly, and most don't cycle anywhere near as regularly as drivers drive.

 

It has begun to happen in London in a small way with one segregated route from West London into the centre, but London doesn't have the imbalance noted above. We have much lower car ownership rate than the rest of the country and a high level of cycle commuting.

 

Somehow the rest of the country needs to achieve the same first. Here it was the very high cost of the vehicle congestion charge that did the trick, but there's resistance to that elsewhere. Traffic jammed Manchester rejected the idea for example.

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I don’t think the rest of the country will ever achieve any sort of car ownership parity with inner London. The public transport system in London is not even close to being mirrored anywhere else in the country.

I don’t think the rest of the country will ever achieve any sort of car ownership parity with inner London. The public transport system in London is not even close to being mirrored anywhere else in the country.

 

There's a link between cycling, public transport and the congestion charge in this.

 

Our congestion charge brought a huge increase in both cycling and public transport. For example, our bus fleet which had declined like that in the rest of the country, to a low of 4500, has now reached double that at 9000. And the increased demand for public transport is bringing rail improvements too.

 

Those increases are far larger than the decline in car ownership, so the congestion charge is the important element.

 

Clearly other cities need to consider that method and not just reject it as Manchester did.

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"Out of interest, do you drive a car?"

My ebike is my primary method of transport now, but my wife is disabled & if she needs transporting I drive her car.

I was taught advanced driving by Police driving instructors, & have driven cars, vans, articulated HGVs & double decker buses.

So I'm not anti-car, I just expect a basic standard of courtesy that is the same whether i'm walking, driving or riding.

"Bikes and “road vehicles” are all potential obstacles to be negotiated, I don’t see the distinction."

 

I was trying to guess why some drivers need to overtake a bike in front of them, but then fail to realise that they are overtaking another vehicle & hence need to check their mirror before commencing their manoeuvre.

 

"You don’t mention what you did when you became aware of the approaching ambulance?"

 

I slowed down, then pulled over to the side of the road.

There's a link between cycling, public transport and the congestion charge in this.

 

Our congestion charge brought a huge increase in both cycling and public transport. For example, our bus fleet which had declined like that in the rest of the country, to a low of 4500, has now reached double that at 9000. And the increased demand for public transport is bringing rail improvements too.

 

Those increases are far larger than the decline in car ownership, so the congestion charge is the important element.

 

Clearly other cities need to consider that method and not just reject it as Manchester did.

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If Manchester already had an underground system like London does. If it had the investment in infrastructure, if it had been as densely populated as London was making car ownership prohibitive if not impossible then it’s a fair criticism of Manchester’s rejection. In the real world, other than the fact both London and Manchester are cities there is no comparison that would make it viable in today’s economic climate.

 

This is a prime example of the north south decide failing to comprehend just how fortunate London is.

If Manchester already had an underground system like London does. If it had the investment in infrastructure, if it had been as densely populated as London was making car ownership prohibitive if not impossible then it’s a fair criticism of Manchester’s rejection. In the real world, other than the fact both London and Manchester are cities there is no comparison that would make it viable in today’s economic climate.

 

I'm trying to illustrate that a start has to be made somewhere, not just saying No to solutions. And your comparisons are just plain wrong.

 

Only the very centre of London is so densely populated that car ownership becomes somewhat difficult but not impossible. London covers 400 square miles and over most of it is well spaced out with still plenty of vacant space for cars.

 

Yes, London at three times the population of Greater Manchester has its underground, but smaller Manchester has an excellent tram system which London still doesn't have with a small exception.

 

And as for mentioning the economic climate making a congestion charge impossible, the charge is a huge source of income to improve public transport. That's what we've done with it, buying all those buses, greatly expanding the Docklands Light Railway, building a new east-west tram system across far South London, putting in cycling facilities and upgrading the Underground.

 

So as I've illustrated, a start has to be made somewhere and the congestion charge was our start to help with road congestion and reverse our decline in public transport at the time.

 

No-one asked us, we just got dumped with it, but it's been a great success and it's being expanded, as are other London charging zones.

 

Manchester's big mistake was to ask the people if they wanted one! How much more daft could that be?

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I'm trying to illustrate that a start has to be made somewhere, not just saying No to solutions. And your comparisons are just plain wrong.

 

Only the very centre of London is so densely populated that car ownership becomes somewhat difficult but not impossible. London covers 400 square miles and over most of it is well spaced out with still plenty of vacant space for cars.

 

Yes, London at three times the population of Greater Manchester has its underground, but smaller Manchester has an excellent tram system which London still doesn't have with a small exception.

 

And as for mentioning the economic climate making a congestion charge impossible, the charge is a huge source of income to improve public transport. That's what we've done with it, buying all those buses, greatly expanding the Docklands Light Railway, building a new east-west tram system across far South London, putting in cycling facilities and upgrading the Underground.

 

So as I've illustrated, a start has to be made somewhere and the congestion charge was our start to help with road congestion and reverse our decline in public transport at the time.

 

No-one asked us, we just got dumped with it, but it's been a great success and it's being expanded, as are other London charging zones.

 

Manchester's big mistake was to ask the people if they wanted one! How much more daft could that be?

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You miss the considerable shortcomings of a tram system that was not wanted and failed spectacularly to deliver even remotely upon the promised benefits. Not to mention the fact it was mainly built on existing roads compounding congestion for the vast majority who don’t happen to live or work right at each end. As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

 

Nothing to do with arrogance, it stood to reason that if people are asked "would you like to pay to drive", they will answer no.

 

So asking is daft when there is a need for something that can be initially unpopular. I'm glad we weren't asked, given all the huge benefits that followed.

 

Still, if Manchester wants to keep it's problems and do nothing about them, it's their call. I see no grounds for helping them if they don't want to help themselves as well.

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Nothing to do with arrogance, it stood to reason that if people are asked "would you like to pay to drive", they will answer no.

 

So asking is daft when there is a need for something that can be initially unpopular. I'm glad we weren't asked, given all the huge benefits that followed.

 

Still, if Manchester wants to keep it's problems and do nothing about them, it's their call. I see no grounds for helping them if they don't want to help themselves as well.

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I rest my case.

You miss the considerable shortcomings of a tram system that was not wanted and failed spectacularly to deliver even remotely upon the promised benefits. Not to mention the fact it was mainly built on existing roads compounding congestion for the vast majority who don’t happen to live or work right at each end. As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

 

I happen to commute in to city centre Manchester from the suburbs (and have since 1989) and almost never drive in.

 

First 16 years I took the bus from Levenshulme (occasionally the train) and the last 13 I have taken the train from Stockport (and since March have connuted in on fine days - almost all off road - on my ebike).

I also use the tram and free bus to get across town fairly frequently as my work is a mile or so from Piccadilly.

 

The public transport commute in Manchester and its suburbs is fine - it's the Cheshire set clogging up the M56 and Princess Parkway that are the commuting nightmare. That is their problem for wanting to live in Alderley Edge IMHO.

 

Driving into the city centre from Stockport at rush hour will take about one hour.

My train commute takes about 50 minutes with trains every 5 minutes or so (I can shave it to 40 mins or so if I park near the station or take the free bus at the other end to get across town). It costs about £900 a year.

The e-bike is 60 minutes door to door (about 3km on road, 17km off road).

 

We do own 2 cars but do only about 4k mileage a year on each. I only you the car for work if I have to visit clients out of town.

 

The public transport commute is far better and less stressful than in London.

When it comes down to it,. Is for some to campaign for change, to convince others there is a better way .

It is very selfish of the Uber rich to commute short distances in expensive uneconomic cars, just because they want to show off there conspicuous cusumptive wealth,why do that in a car that costs as much as a poorer person s flat?

They create problems for themselves ,just because they wish to show whealth.

I happen to commute in to city centre Manchester from the suburbs (and have since 1989) and almost never drive in.

 

First 16 years I took the bus from Levenshulme (occasionally the train) and the last 13 I have taken the train from Stockport (and since March have connuted in on fine days - almost all off road - on my ebike).

I also use the tram and free bus to get across town fairly frequently as my work is a mile or so from Piccadilly.

 

The public transport commute in Manchester and its suburbs is fine - it's the Cheshire set clogging up the M56 and Princess Parkway that are the commuting nightmare. That is their problem for wanting to live in Alderley Edge IMHO.

 

Driving into the city centre from Stockport at rush hour will take about one hour.

My train commute takes about 50 minutes with trains every 5 minutes or so (I can shave it to 40 mins or so if I park near the station or take the free bus at the other end to get across town). It costs about £900 a year.

The e-bike is 60 minutes door to door (about 3km on road, 17km off road).

 

We do own 2 cars but do only about 4k mileage a year on each. I only you the car for work if I have to visit clients out of town.

 

The public transport commute is far better and less stressful than in London.

 

So you commute off road from the one side of Manchester that does not have a tram system screwing up the road network. You don’t go anywhere near the routes from Altrincham, Eccles, Ashton, Oldham or Bury.. well good for you but hardly relevant to the adverse impact that compromised, late and over budget system has on the areas where it supposedly serves.

The reason that people from Cheshire clog up the roads into Manchester is the fact there is no public transport in to Manchester from Cheshire ie not one bus goes into Manchester and only 2 trains an hour....

So you commute off road from the one side of Manchester that does not have a tram system screwing up the road network. You don’t go anywhere near the routes from Altrincham, Eccles, Ashton, Oldham or Bury.. well good for you but hardly relevant to the adverse impact that compromised, late and over budget system has on the areas where it supposedly serves.

 

There is a tram system, I go through the Didsbury Parrswood interchange on the way.

 

My biggest gripes with the tram system are that it doesn't run a bike lane alongside it (huge opportunity missed IMHO) and bans dogs and bikes even off peak.

 

People just have to get over the idea that there is enough space on the roads and parking spaces in a big city to come in at rush hour in your own car without expecting gridlock. It's not 1955 or even 1975 any more. Cars aren't the future.

 

If you buy a house somewhere without good public transport links, and then get a job in the City Centre that isn't flexible in terms of when you can go in and leave, and aren't prepared to drive to the closest station or interchange but insist on driving in all the way into the City Centre and parking up, what on earth do you expect?

 

 

Cars aren't going to get priority any more, thank God. If tramlines, pedestrian areas, bus lanes and cycle routes add to a car driver's commute time, then so be it...

Edited May 28, 20196 yr by Andy McNish

Have you ever thought people may have to get jobs in the city because there are no jobs in their area and if there are no transport links what are they meant to do?

Have you ever thought people may have to get jobs in the city because there are no jobs in their area and if there are no transport links what are they meant to do?

Folk might be restricted in employment choices, but it doesn't mean that they have clog roads up with each traveling in their own individual box on wheels, they can campaign for transport links, bus services, cycle paths, or whatever, unless someone starts it how are things to improve?

It can improve, it just needs some people to shout about it, in Europe it had been done, it just needs all of us to be involved in change

It is very selfish of the Uber rich to commute short distances in expensive uneconomic cars, just because they want to show off there conspicuous cusumptive wealth,why do that in a car that costs as much as a poorer person s flat?

They create problems for themselves ,just because they wish to show whealth.

 

Agreed. I'm a car owner who uses the car in the fringe of South London and beyond into the outer counties. But when I had need to travel into Central London a few times a while ago, I used public transport, five stages in all. Bus, tram, mainline train, underground, walk. Most of those trips took just over an hour since each service is very frequent and it would have taken as long by car.

 

It's by using public transport that the service improves. Not using it ensures its decline.

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My biggest gripes with the tram system are that it doesn't run a bike lane alongside it (huge opportunity missed IMHO)

 

Same with our recent outer South London tram system. We tried to get cycle lanes included but economy won in the end and a golden opportunity was missed.

 

Cars aren't going to get priority any more, thank God. If tramlines, pedestrian areas, bus lanes and cycle routes add to a car driver's commute time, then so be it...

 

Indeed. As a car driver I'm entirely content to be held up by lights as our trams very frequently cross roads or run along them.

 

They are a public service, each carrying up to 150 people. In my car I'm only serving myself. Of course the trams should have absolute priority, and for the same reason I give priority to buses on the roads.

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Bus services have been cut in East Cheshire meaning there is no bus service at all into Manchester, trains are overcrowded and over priced and there are no cycle paths. The ideal solution would be to ban all cars from cities and towns and have free car parks on the outskirts and very cheap public transport to ferry people into the centres.

Out of interest - I am doubting anyone - but has anyone a good site for official stats for the increase in bus/train usage due to the congestion charge?

Coincidently, from page 6 of The Times today, 28/5/19:

"

Funding gap forces national cycling targets off track.

A national target to double the number of cycling journeys by 2025 is likely to be missed because of lack of money for dedicated bike lanes.

The Department of Transport said that it expected to fall dramatically short of its goal as the current policy was only projected to fill about a third of the gap towards the target. This has fuelled demands for a funding increase across the UK, particularly in rural areas.

........

Cycling UK said that the substantial increase in cycling in London and Manchester was being offset by declines in more rural areas.

"