I felt that Kirstin's initial comments were rather terse, verging on rude, and Matteo responded in kind but rather more politely. In fact I felt that he was very restrained.

 

Fair enough, on a re read aspects I can see that way. Not sure I agree totally with you on the responses but hey ho

 

Anyway, time will tell, I again wished him the best (though made a joke about testing a free kit)

 

And at this point shall step away

Matteo might see things that way, but is it not that the reseller is the first point of contact for support?

Yes, the reseller is the first point of contact for support. However they rely on the OEM for ultimate backup, particularly when parts fail under warranty.

 

I bought a Bosch equipped bike partly because of their informative website, partly because of their countrywide support network, partly because of the German reputation of quality engineering, partly because of Bosch's reputation in automotive electronics and partly because I've worked with several of their divisions and have always been impressed with their electronics engineers.

 

I couldn't say the same of any Chinese ebike parts supplier.

I couldn't say the same of any Chinese ebike parts supplier.

I only work with the largest Chinese manufacturers - so I can only tell you about how service and backup is organised within our supply chain.

 

1. We hold stock of spares in Southend.

2. Under warranty: straightforward replacement of the whole item if used less than a month, straightforward replacement of sub-assembly (LCD, motor, controller, cableset) within guarantee period. Outside the guarantee period: we make a judgement on whether the item was sub-standard in the first place, if it is, we simply replace it.

We always prioritise service over sale, that is why when stock is low, we turn off the affected item from the online shop and ask customers to ring if they need to buy the item urgently for their project. We then make a judgement on whether we can spare a unit and still keep the service going.

3. All the faulty items are sent back to the factories and usually replaced with new.

4. If we have any technical query that we cannot answer, we email the factory and get a solution usually in a week a two.

 

That's why I have programmers for the controllers and so on.

 

There is no mystery. Chinese factories are just as straightforward to deal with as you would expect from any large producers in the EU. We translate and augment their manuals with our input and keep all manuals online here.

 

I don't think the quality of service of Chinese motors, controllers, cablesets, LCDs is any less good than what you would get from European producers, except that we hold a few percents of stock for service to avoid delay. Better still, you can buy spares if you have to.

Edited January 21, 20206 yr by Woosh

I only work with the largest Chinese manufacturers - so I can only tell you about how service and backup is organised within our supply chain.

 

1. We hold stock of spares in Southend.

2. Under warranty: straightforward replacement of the whole item if used less than a month, straightforward replacement of sub-assembly (LCD, motor, controller, cableset) within guarantee period. Outside the guarantee period: we make a judgement on whether the item was sub-standard in the first place, if it is, we simply replace it.

We always prioritise service over sale, that is why when stock is low, we turn off the affected item from the online shop and ask customers to ring if they need to buy the item urgently for their project. We then make a judgement on whether we can spare a unit and still keep the service going.

3. All the faulty items are sent back to the factory which usually replace with new.

4. If we have any technical query that we cannot answer, we email the factory and get a solution usually in a week a two.

 

That's why I have programmers for the controllers and so on.

 

There is no mystery. Chinese factories are just as straightforward as you would expect from any large producers in the EU.

 

I don't think the quality of service of Chinese motors, controllers, cablesets, LCDs is any less good than what you would get from European producers, except that we hold a few percents of stock for service to avoid delay.

You're doing a great job and you have an excellent reputation on here.

 

An exceptional job in fact, unfortunately I fear that many of your UK competitors who simply buy in assembled bikes from China, one way or another, are at the other end of the scale.

I fear that many of your UK competitors who simply buy in assembled bikes from China, one way or another, are at the other end of the scale.

If they imagine their bikes (and kits) never fail so make no provision to deal with support, that's their own fault, not their Chinese producers. I guess they won't last long if they don't have after sale customer support.

Matteo made a sweeping statement against Chinese producers. That prompted my reaction.

If they imagine their bikes (and kits) never fail so make no provision to deal with support, that's their own fault, not their Chinese producers. I guess they won't last long if they don't have customer support.

Matteo made a sweeping statement against Chinese producers. That prompted my reaction.

It reflects back badly on the Chinese producers though.

 

If dealers of Bosch equipped bikes weren't up to scratch I'm sure Bosch would take actions, it's a pity Chinese producers don't do the same.

 

Bosch provides a support telephone number and mailing system for end user customers, do Chinese producers do this?

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/contact/

 

Do Chinese producers produce local language manuals to help their end users?

 

Let me say again, you're doing a good job but the vast majority of Chinese bike importers aren't.

 

Matteo's comments about them are a generalisation but unfortunately they are true of the large majority.

It reflects back badly on the Chinese producers though.

 

If dealers of Bosch equipped bikes weren't up to scratch I'm sure Bosch would take actions, it's a pity Chinese producers don't do the same.

 

Bosch provides a support telephone number and mailing system for end user customers, do Chinese producers do this?

the difference is Bosch requires their resellers to apply for dealership, thus contractually tie their resellers to their support system.

If I wanted to sell on parts or bikes that I import, I will ask my resellers to sign my reseller contract for the same reasons.

 

Some members of the forum encourage other members to buy directly from China on Aliexpress or Chinese websites, thus making the latter members directly liable for their own imported goods.

 

Whose fault is it?

Some members of the forum encourage other members to buy directly from China on Aliexpress or Chinese websites, thus making the latter members directly liable for their own imported goods.

 

Whose fault is it?

I suspect they all know the risk they're taking when buying direct from China. I've had some good experiences and some appalling experiences when buying electronic (non ebike) components from China, that's the risk I take when they're not available elsewhere worldwide.

 

I feel sorry for people buying cheap imported Chinese bikes from local internet suppliers and imagining they're going to get good support.

Thanks ebike99 for understanding my hard job! It's normal to find people that get passionate when they see a new product on different forums as some of them have a family to feed with the current products. But I'm positive that someone like Woosh or Kirsten might want to start selling our product as well. Usually the more they get passionate at the beginning the more likely they'll going join the team...we are seeing that happening in Italy.

 

We just released the new video for those who missed it:

 

Thanks ebike99 for understanding my hard job! It's normal to find people that get passionate when they see a new product on different forums as some of them have a family to feed with the current products. But I'm positive that someone like Woosh or Kirsten might want to start selling our product as well. Usually the more they get passionate at the beginning the more likely they'll going join the team...we are seeing that happening in Italy.

 

We just released the new video for those who missed it:

 

 

Im just a consumer (enthusiastic one for sure!) I don't sell anything!

Why is lengthening a chain a non-starter for a kit? One needs a chain breaker to remove the front derailleur anyway on a mid drive install. Then you have to add some extra links. I guess it does add cost, and maybe a reseller will need to supply a full length chain with the kit to keep it complete.

Why is lengthening a chain a non-starter for a kit? One needs a chain breaker to remove the front derailleur anyway on a mid drive install. Then you have to add some extra links. I guess it does add cost, and maybe a reseller will need to supply a full length chain with the kit to keep it complete.

 

A good kit needs to be easy to install. Do you remember your first conversion?

 

- reduce the possibility of errors and unforeseen complications

- lower labour cost

 

Also, from the reseller's point of view, a kit that is easy to install reduces support cost. 9 out of 10 of my customers don't do conversions for a living and probably 8 convert their bikes for the first time, so for them, ease of installation is a big deal.

 

If you install a Bafang BBS kit for example on a bike with triple chainring, you can disconnect and leave the front derailleur on its granny ring setting without having to remove it.

 

Note that there is no obvious way of refitting the chainguard and the smaller than the usual 44T chainring on most bikes, that's an extra concern:

 

Edited January 22, 20206 yr by Woosh

To be honest none of the comments above would put me off this type of kit. I am absolutely confident that I could fit it without too much issue.

 

The extra cogs and jockeys in the chain might need a bit of extra cleaning and possibly a bit of noise but probably not going to be significant.

 

I like the fact that in the event of any form of mechanical failure of the add on drive you could restore the bike to normal operation with nothing more complicated than a chain splitter which is always in my carry kit. I also like the fact that I could use my existing longer cranks which I’ve had to go away from with my current kit. (I know I could buy aftermarket longer trike cranks - but I wouldn’t have needed to)

To be honest none of the comments above would put me off this type of kit. I am absolutely confident that I could fit it without too much issue.

 

1. you will have to replace your chainring with the new chainring because the clutch is built inside it, so you can't reuse the old cranks anyway.

2. how would you fit the chainguard?

how would you fit the chainguard?

 

Well I wouldn’t :-) I’ve never owned a bike with one.

 

Obviously you know your market, if you are selling mainly to commuters and that makes a big part of your business then the chain guard would be a significant issue.

 

Extra spares and another stream of support might be unattractive for a small part of your market but someone somewhere will probably go there “if” it takes off.

 

Something about this drive design appeals to my engineering background but predictions about reliability and simple popularity are so hard to predict, there are numerous really good technically good products that have failed simply because a mass market already existed.

1. you will have to replace your chainring with the new chainring because the clutch is built inside it, so you can't reuse the old cranks anyway.

2. how would you fit the chainguard?

Well you’ve edited your response since I posted mine so I’ll back out of the discussion at this point.

Something about this drive design appeals to my engineering background

how do you compare this part of the design to another kit like yours?

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/support/lightest-kit.jpg

Well you’ve edited your response since I posted mine so I’ll back out of the discussion at this point.

I know you are very good, I saw the replacement front arms that you made for the rack battery on your bike. Since, I bought some aluminium profile just in case anyone needs to make replacement arms.

My first conversion was a rear hub motor and uneventful. Second one was a BBS02, memorable because the crank arms were fused to the BB spindle. Took a whole day to remove.

 

At my age, I've learned some patience. My current conversion(s) involve two wheel builds. Looking at 1/2" in wobble and 3/8" radial variation when I started to true the last one, I kind of wondered if the wheel was going to win. Nah.

memorable because the crank arms were fused to the BB spindle. Took a whole day to remove.

I know the feeling.

We have often to use a thick plate, two wedges and a big hammer to push the crank out.

If you install a Bafang BBS kit for example on a bike with triple chainring, you can disconnect and leave the front derailleur on its granny ring setting without having to remove it.

 

If you want you can leave the derailleur on this one as well in the double chain configuration ( as GNG): you can have a triple chainring and use the derailleur to switch from the bigger to the medium one and keep the smaller chainring for motor-to-crank transmission.

 

I believe that the most important thing for a retrofit kit is its comfort and performance while riding. Installation just happens once or twice and if someone feels it's not able to do it, then he can handle the bike to a bike shop for doing the least obvious passages ( such as taking down the bottom bracket).

how do you compare this part of the design to another kit like yours?

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/support/lightest-kit.jpg

 

We did't invent that, Rocky Mountain has been using this configuration for the last two years on a £6000 ebike.

 

http://www.ebikecult.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2018_AltitudePowerplay_closeup_motor.jpeg

Hi Matteo,

 

that bike is a specialist build, perhaps for the showroom only.

 

The average kit looks more like this:

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/support/tsdz2.jpg

 

that picture was extracted from one of gw8izr's posts.

BTW, that Rocky Mountain has 3 chain tensioners instead of one.

that bike is a specialist build, perhaps for the showroom only.

I have friends which have been using it for one year and it's doing very well.

 

BTW, that Rocky Mountain has 3 chain tensioners instead of one.

They have one more than our system: the third one at the top. That's probably used to get a desired behaviour of the rear suspension rather than for the proper motor operation.

they have chain tensioners on the left and right of the chainring.

the one above the chainring is for the benefit of the motor.

Yours is shared between motor and chainring,

Plus, their top chain tensioner has a retainer to keep the chain away from the ring.