if you can upload firmware either through a USB port or the LCD connector then it can be bypassed. We should examine the differences, or not, because a defeat device if it does its job then there should not be any difference whether the defeat device is hardware or software or a combination of those two.

not even dealers with the bosch software can change the power and speed settings as it can only be done at the factory when there made.

 

if there was a way in id have found it buy now but still the only option is £150 dongles that are a fkn rip off.

 

if there is any way at all a user can change the bikes speed settings in the display they are not road legal.

 

 

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=297&osCsid=cam17t3gftco3jfd842s825056

 

if i stuck that on a mtb and set it to 15mph and 250w do you think it will be road legal nope lol

you have to have proprietary systems for that. If you want interoperability, then those who want to derestrict will simply by a replacement LCD if they don't know the password.

If you say 'then it's OK if the guy wants to buy a new LCD', we can move the conversation on ' how difficult to guess the password has to be?'

how long is the password and can a different one be used on every bike sold?

not even dealers with the bosch software can change the power and speed settings as it can only be done at the factory when there made.

That's not true. I keep telling you, I've seen one done.

That's not true. I keep telling you, I've seen one done.

but you never prove it last link you gave me was the bosch web site put up or shut up

how long is the password and can a different one be used on every bike sold?

LCD password is 4 digits, each is made of a number of key presses, so between 8 key presses and 50 key presses and yes, it can be set individually.

Once you accept that LCD should be locked, then we can move on to the next point:

If it's clear that the guy who replaces his passworded LCD is breaking the law, then why the guy who broke the password does not break the law?

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by Woosh

LCD password is 4 digits, each is made of a number of key presses, so between 8 key presses and 50 key presses and yes, it can be set individually.

well if you set a custom password for every bike sold then it is not as easy as going on line and finding the default password for every display.

 

it will make it a lot harder for anyone trying to guess what it is but it still could be broken in to with effort.

 

id do that and if they want the password its £55

we all have our personal views but if you take into account the greater good of interoperability and freedom from single sourcing for hardware and services and accept that the guilt is with those who break the law knowingly, regardless of the means, then the end product is likely to be cheaper and customers better served with the LCD left unlocked.

at the end of the day no test case has been brought over this matter and the way things are going i doubt it ever will esp now with hire scooter on the road.

 

just think of what bosch ect spent on r and d and to this day cant stop dongles from working.

 

now if i did manage to hack the Bosch software and tried to sell it id have the living shit sued out of me buy Bosch and they would soon find a way to patch it even if i gave it away for free.

Still the same mistake, these things are immaterial.

 

Can the rider exceed the exemption limitations using available controls?

 

If the answer is yes, the machine is not a legal pedelec since it does not qualify for the exemption.

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Let's deal with this methodically, one bit at a time.

It's clear that changing the settings of the bike is illegal but we are not talking about that. We are talking about bikes compliance with regulations.

 

it's clear that when the bike is delivered, the customer cannot change the speed limiter's setting by himself. Indeed, the majority are not interested in removing or altering the speed limiter.

Are we agreed at this point that the bike is legal?

 

However, some can go on to this forum and ask around how to do it and some members will assist.

 

1. He'll soon learn that removing the speed sensor is one way.

Are you saying that a bike that continues to assist when its speed sensor is removed is illegal?

 

2. he learns that there is a secret sequence of key presses (aka entering the password) and he can change from km to miles. He learns that he can also up the maximum speed from 15mph to 25mph.

Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

 

3. He learns that the bike will take another LCD from another manufacturer or he can simply rewire the on/off switch.

Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

Let's deal with this methodically, one bit at a time.

It's clear that changing the settings of the bike is illegal but we are not talking about that. We are talking about bikes compliance with regulations.

 

it's clear that when the bike is delivered, the customer cannot change the speed limiter's setting by himself. Indeed, the majority are not interested in removing or altering the speed limiter.

Are we agreed at this point that the bike is legal?

 

However, some can go on to this forum and ask around how to do it and some members will assist.

 

1. He'll soon learn that removing the speed sensor is one way.

Are you saying that a bike that continues to assist when its speed sensor is removed is illegal?

 

2. he learns that there is a secret sequence of key presses (aka entering the password) and he can change from km to miles. He learns that he can also up the maximum speed from 15mph to 25mph.

Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

 

3. He learns that the bike will take another LCD from another manufacturer or he can simply rewire the on/off switch.

Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

 

I've only ever dealt with this methodically according to law.

 

Numbers 1 and 3 are illegal actions if taken, modifications to subvert the regulations. Both bikes were perfectly legal before those actions were taken and any compliance status they'd received emphasises that the modifications must not be carried out.

 

Number 2 depends on the intent of the manufacturer. If the intent was to prevent the owner from making the alteration by sufficiently protecting the access code(s), then the bike is legal.

 

However it's long been clear to me that this is far from the case since there is no excuse for inclusion of any means of alteration of the legal status, password protected or not. The EU style law is a largely worldwide one now so there's only a need to supply that format for most of the world, with a second format for the US market. After all, cars are supplied in various physical forms for different places in the world, LH drive or RH drive controls and lights, with or without headlight flashers, tinted or plain screens, equipped with differing legally required accessories etc. according to market.

 

Providing more than one e-bike LCD software formats to comply with national laws is peanuts in comparison, so it's clear to me that the manufacturers avoidance of effort to comply is an intent to allow subversion of the law. That some do make the effort, Bosch and Panasonic for example, is proof enough.

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Edited July 24, 20205 yr by flecc

Shouldn't they be allowed to buy LCDs from other companies?

 

Of course, supplied by the LCD maker to the correct non-adjustable specification for the intended market. As I said there's hardly any variation, two covers virtually all the world.

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Edited July 24, 20205 yr by flecc

if i stuck that on a mtb and set it to 15mph and 250w do you think it will be road legal nope lol

 

 

In many cases they are relying on the fact that the authorities do nothing about such illegality since it's so small in scale. More important things to worry about etc., etc.

.

 

Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

I can't imagine anyone selling a kit that is locked.

of course it's unlikely to be enforceable but this is a moral question for manufacturers and sellers. Assisting possible offenders?

You may just as well ask the same questions to members who assist the same possible offenders with their expertise.

Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

 

Indeed, thoughout Europe including here in the uk they have no legal status. Enforcement is possible however, by taking them off the road but the authorities have no intention of doing that. They are well aware of their presence but take no notice while their users largely comply with the law for manufactured pedelecs.

 

Overall it's not a big enough issue to be bothered with and drafting a law for home constructions would be a complex nightmare.

 

They don't have to be illegal though, since I can tell you the legal way of dealing with a kit, athough no-one has ever done it:

 

1) Buy and fit the motor kit.

2) Make an appointment at an approved vehicle testing station, paying the £55 test fee.

3) Most often the purpose of this is to get an SVA (Single Vehicle Approval), entitling it for use as a type approved motor vehicle. However your intention will be to get the inspector to agree that it meets the pedelec requirements so is exempt from being a motor vehicle and is approved as a pedelec.

 

However, if you get and accept SVA approval as well at the same time, you will be able to have a fully acting throttle on a post December 2015 pedelec with it still considered a bureaucracy free pedelec, a bonus. I repeat though, no-one to my knowedge has ever done this to create a kit pedelec so it's never been necessary, but it is the DfT specified correct way when creating any motorised vehicle from more than one vehicle or from parts.

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Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

i have had a dongle on my bosch bike for the last 5 years and it has never been a problem ebike shop is one of the biggest haibike dealers in the uk and they sell and fit dongles to there bikes and honor the motor warranty.

Look, it's illegal to ride a pedelec that has assist speed over 26.5 km/h. That's nice and simple.

 

Let's say you had an accident, like that guy on his Specialized that wiped out a woman who jumped out on him. If witnesses or CCTV show that you were going rather fast, there could be some suspicion about the legality of your bike, especially if you were seen fiddling with buttons after the accident or connecting your laptop or pressing buttons on your phone; however, it's going to be really tricky to prove what you did, especially if you sent an SMS on your phone to a friend to say that you were going to be late or you tell them you were pausing your journey time calculation on the LCD, or make any other plausible reason for what you did. If you have an "off-road" button on your handlebars and they test to show that it adjusts the max speed, you're going to have a tough time, but anything else is going to be very tricky to prove.

 

In fact, they won't bother going down that route. Instead, they'll charge you with reckless or furious cycling, which is much easier to prove.

Agree with all of the above that was my intention was to steer it to unless you are a manufacturer compliance with 250w, 15.5mph, no full acting throttle, off road modes, passwords, no dongles etc is all irrelevant unless you have a serious crash which answers the OP's question of how they can sell 1000w bikes or 10000w bikes if they wish

let's just ignore the context of a physical switch because there is no switch.

Let's discuss the difference between a physical dongle and going through a menu tree to change the speed setting.

Both mechanisms cannot be performed on the fly. You have to stop the bike and do it.

So it's clear when you ride a legal bike and when you are not. You can't switch from one mode to the other like you can stop using the throttle or switch your lights on and off for example.

Wait for the Sirlexa version: "Sirlexa derestrict now".