Hi,

 

I joined here as I am soon going to be getting a KMX Cyclone (thank you cyclescheme) to commute to work. This is a 15 mile each way thing so I am looking for a little help with the hills. I did use to do this journey a year or so ago on my trice classic but since then I have had a knee operation and fallen terribly out of condition. All up weight (me, trike, luggage and assist) will be something like the 300lb weight limit.

 

Now I have seen plenty of kits on e-bay like these

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1000W-48V-ELECTRIC-BICYCLE-E-BIKE-RETROFIT-KITS_W0QQitemZ170317882229QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL?hash=item27a7bca375&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1688|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

 

I am wondering are they any good? Money is a little tight - at least until the savings I make kick in so I need something that will do the job but if it only lasts a year or so - so be it. I can replace it with something more long term. I am ok with electrics and have been taking bikes apart since I was a small kid so something that needs help along the way is ok. I have also looked at the Currie electro drive as that seems a decent price as well.

 

I am only after help with the hills - speed is not an issue as I can shift it ok on the flat myself, after all I do want some exercise. If it crawls up a hill at only 5mph - that would be fine.

 

So - does anyone know anything about these kits on a trike or the currie electro drive also on a trike.

 

Look forward to hearing from you guys.

 

Everso

Not very technically minded but it appears not to have a battery? and is probably illegal for UK use?

 

why not look at something more established like the Alien kit......at least they are complete as a kit and have a track record on here.

Not an option as it works on the front wheel - will not go on a trike

These motors are direct drive types, not internally geared. Direct drive types are more suited to speed but

not so good on hills, especially at very low speeds, since the motor only turns at wheel speed.

 

That said, if it is a genuine 1000 watt motor it will climb reasonably on it's brute force, but the downside will

be it's thirst for current meaning an average size 10Ah battery won't give much range, possibly under 10 miles.

The positives are that this is a simple type of motor and generally quiet in operation.

 

The Currie Electrodrive has been used on KMX trikes successfully and will do the job ok. It is a very old design

now though, not very refined and a bit noisy. They have suffered a few reliability problems too, mainly the odd

motor failing but also broken spokes due to the spoke attached transmission. Again the range is usually short,

but this time usually due to having lead acid batteries as standard.

 

Probably the best motor for your application is the Heinzmann, but it's very expensive so not an option for you

at present.

.

Edited June 20, 200916 yr by flecc

That said, if it is a genuine 1000 watt motor it will climb reasonably on it's brute force, but the downside will

be it's thirst for current meaning an average size 10Ah battery won't give much range, possibly under 10 miles.

The positives are that this is a simple type of motor and generally quiet in operation.

 

>I guess there is no way of knowing if it is true 1000W or not is there. The commute is 15 miles each way. I will be able to recharge at work so a 15 mile range is all I would need. That is assuming I don't do any of the work. I intend to only use it for hills - I guess about 3 miles in total so this part of it looks acceptable so far.

 

 

The Currie Electrodrive has been used on KMX trikes successfully and will do the job ok. It is a very old design

now though, not very refined and a bit noisy. They have suffered a few reliability problems too, mainly the odd

motor failing but also broken spokes due to the spoke attached transmission. Again the range is usually short,

but this time usually due to having lead acid batteries as standard.

 

> The weight on the spoke thing was a concern for me. The total set up will not be light. I am (or at least was) able to ride the hills on my own so am able to pedal when needed. I just want to not dread the hill parts so much. I am not even expecting the motor to pull me up the hill - just help.

 

Probably the best motor for your application is the Heinzmann, but it's very expensive so not an option for you

at present.

 

> Yeha - that's the dream ... but at the moment just a dream.

 

.

 

 

I would also be interested if you can recomend any kits that drive the chain and thereby get advantages of using the trike gears. Information on these seems to be hard to come by.

 

Everso

One chain drive kit that's been used on the KMX is the Cyclone, and member Ballparkcy has one kitted like this.

This kit normally needs a freewheeling chainwheel so the pedalling can stop while the motor still drives, but on

the KMX you can use an intermediate freewheel arrangement. Ballparkcy's is like this.

 

Here's the Cyclone Taiwan link

 

And here's a link to Ballparkcy's thread on this.

 

He would probably be happy to advise on any details you need to know.

 

The Cyclone is only average quality and needs some waterproofing added to avoid water ingess and corrosion,

but several members are using them in different applications.

.

Edited June 20, 200916 yr by flecc

One chain drive kit that's been used on the KMX is the Cyclone, and member Ballparkcy has one kitted like this.

This kit normally needs a freewheeling chainwheel so the pedalling can stop while the motor still drives, but on

the KMX you can use an intermediate freewheel arrangement. Ballparkcy's is like this.

 

Here's the Cyclone Taiwan link

 

And here's a link to Ballparkcy's thread on this.

 

He would probably be happy to advise on any details you need to know.

 

The Cyclone is only average quality and needs some waterproofing added to avoid water ingess and corrosion,

but several members are using them in different applications.

.

 

Ohh - now that looks good. Would it be possible to fit it without the freewheeling front cog? I realise that means the legs would always have to turn but the model I am getting has triple front cog and I did not see one on their site. If they did sell one there is also the cost thing ...

 

Everso

No, they don't make a triple freewheeling spider or chainwheel Everso.

 

You can run it without the intermediate double freewheel but that could only be done with the normal solo bike

motor with it's nylon idler to ensure the chain wrapped sufficiently around the motor sprocket. That can only be

done on the trailing chain run with the motor below the boom, leaving not much ground clearance. I don't know

if this caused trouble as it's certainly less efficient and the long chain run might cause problems with the

wrapping, possibly why they later created the double freewheel.

 

You could ask Paco at Cyclone about this, but meanwhile here's a KMX with the underslung motor and their

freewheeling chainwheel. You still couldn't use your triple chainring though, for obvious reasons:

 

http://www.cyclone-uk.com/images/X-Class_full250.JPG

Edited June 20, 200916 yr by flecc

Yeha - I did see that install picture. It looks prety easy to do. The only problem I can see is that the chain path does not have much space to allow for side to side movement as it moves from chainring to chainring. Mayby something like setting up so it was a straight line when on one particular cog (say the largest to reduce leg speed) and only applying poser when on that cog.

 

Do you see that working or am I missing something here?

You couldn't use the triple chainring, the chain would not be able to cope with that much twist over the short

distance from the chainring to motor sprocket and would probably jump the sprocket or break. It could even

damage the motor bearings.

.

You couldn't use the triple chainring, the chain would not be able to cope with that much twist over the short

distance from the chainring to motor sprocket and would probably jump the sprocket or break. It could even

damage the motor bearings.

.

 

I was afraid of that .... so how about this...

 

Set it up so a small chain goes from motor and round the inner small front cog. The front gears could then be set up to only operate on the 2 larger front cogs. This would take it from a 24 speed to a 16 speed and lose the low end - but low end is what the motor is for.

 

Or - look at mounting the motor behind the seat - that should leave plenty of chain lengh for every gear to be happy.

 

BTW - thanks for all your help with this. I know bikes/trikes well enough but this whole assist thing is new to me. I am hoping that I can get it easy enough to ride that my wife (recovering form a motorbkie accident) can ride it while I ride my trice classic and we are evenly matched.

 

Everso

That might be possible if you could get the motor aligned for the inner chainring, it should adjust that much in it's

mountings.

 

The second option of a solo bike motor to the rear of the seat isn't possible, remember it must drive on the lower

chain run so the motor has to be underslung, and I doubt there would be enough ground clearance. In addition

the chain would not stay engaged on the motor drive sprocket teeth without a nearby chainring holding it down,

so you'd need to add a fixed idler close by to fulfil that function.

.

The second option of a solo bike motor to the rear of the seat isn't possible, remember it must drive on the lower

chain run so the motor has to be underslung, and I doubt there would be enough ground clearance. In addition

the chain would not stay engaged on the motor drive sprocket teeth without a nearby chainring holding it down,

so you'd need to add a fixed idler close by to fulfil that function.

.

 

If it's not a silly question - why does it have to go on the lower chain run? If you look at picture 3 here

 

KMX Karts » Cobra

 

it looks to me like the motor could be mounted on the top chain run just behind the chain guide wheel/pully (not sure of the propper name). It would then pull the chain over the rear cogs and still provide the assist that way. The pully thing would also act as a nice guide sprocket to keep things nicly alinged.

 

Everso

If it's very close to the chainring as in that photo that can work. The important thing is not to have any longer

loose run from the motor to the top of the chainring since that could lead to the chain jumping off if under

motor drive without enough pedal effort to keep the chain between them taut.

 

Generally speaking driving the lower run after the chainring has less potential for trouble, though their double

freewheel with secondary chain drive is the best way of all of course.

.

Thinking about this a bit more, the top run motor mounting wouldn't be any good unless with the double freewheel

and dual chain setup. The reason is the small nylon idler which would be necessary with a clockwise motor to

wrap the chain around the motor drive sprocket. This idler would carry the full motor loading if mounted before

the motor or the full rider power if mounted after. Either way it simply isn't strong enough to be under load.

 

It's designed to run after the drive on the slack chain run, only providing the chain wrapping, and used under load

it would fail very quickly or twist it's small spindle off the housing. If they could be persuaded to supply a

clockwise motor with the more substantial sprocket idler, that could work. All in all it's best to stick with the

recommended design, and I note they are pushing the dual chain system more on their site now, with much less

emphasis on the older nylon pulley design.

 

But for the cost, the real answer on the KMX is to use their double freewheel system with one chainwheel and

use an SRAM DualDrive, putting all 24 gears at the rear wheel.

 

You can see how insubstantial that nylon pulley is from the photo below:

 

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/image023.jpg

Ah - got you - that sadly makes sence.

 

So I am thnking it is between 3 options then.

 

1) small chain round the inner front cog. Sounds simple and with limited potential for chain slipping. Disadvantages are losing the inner ring to pedal with and no freewheeling.

 

2) those kits from e-bay If a genuine 1000W it does sound that pure brute force would pul it up the hill - especialy with help.

 

3) a Currie electro drive. I know it has it's issues but it seems cheap and after I have paid for the trike (the loan lasts for 1 year) I can then use the savings to get something better and more long lived. I am able to change spokes so even if this option entailed swapping the odd spoke every month or so - I can live with that for a year. It might even be possible to use parts of it (batteries - controller etc) to drive a more expensive hub motor with internal gearing and cut down on the cost of an upgrade.

 

This whole electric assist thing is certainly as complicated as I thought it was. Glad it is a few weeks before the trike arrives as it looks like a hell of a lot of investigation is still needed.

 

Everso.

I think no freewheeling could become both tiresome and awkward, so I favour options two or three.

 

A big enough battery to supply enough current for that 1000 watt motor could be a problem. If SLA (lead acid) it

will be very large and heavy, sapping much of the hill climb performance. If lithium it could cost as much as £400

or even more.

 

Overall therefore I'd say the Currie with it's more moderate size SLA batteries the most suitable as a low cost

temporary solution, and it's a proven application for the KMX. I don't think you could salvage anything useful for

a later upgrade, but you could sell the one year old Currie kit and recover some of the money.

 

As a permanent solution I'd either choose the full Cyclone double freewheel and Dual Drive gears setup or a

Heinzmann high torque rear hub motor.

.

stupid thought 11172 but i wonder if you could get the wheels on a bile like this to tilt in to the corners like on the Piaggio MP3..

stupid thought 11172 but i wonder if you could get the wheels on a bile like this to tilt in to the corners like on the Piaggio MP3..

 

Not stuid at all. There are several wheel tilting trikes on the market. In general they tend to be heavy, expensive and complex. At the speeds a trike can go (I have hit 50 MPH downhill) they can generaly corner ok with enough leaning out the side. I have not heard of a trike falling over on a corner - though I am sure some have. Remember these things are very low - unlike a scooter - and harder to tip over.

 

Everso

 

Overall therefore I'd say the Currie with it's more moderate size SLA batteries the most suitable as a low cost

temporary solution, and it's a proven application for the KMX. I don't think you could salvage anything useful for

a later upgrade, but you could sell the one year old Currie kit and recover some of the money.

.

 

Well it was on my list as an option. Given the advice from more experienced people here I am thinking the Currie wins. When money permits a better drive the Currie can be moved to my old trike making them both assisted. Leaves me one as a spare incase of mechanical problems.

 

I have allways wanted to make a velomobile shell and I could do this with a second assisted trike. This is looking good.

 

Thank you for you help and putting up with my constant questions.

 

Everso

 

I have not heard of a trike falling over on a corner - though I am sure some have.

 

Everso

 

You may remember that KMX started out with a kids recumbent trike design, and the first road test I saw was

with someone's youngster testing it. He promptly hurtled down a slope into a bend and flipped it. Leaping

back onto his feet he yelled out in delight "I barrel rolled it!"

 

Once he got the hang of it better, the kid rounded corners with the rear wheel drifting out and soon ripped the

tread off the rear tyre.

 

Maybe we should get ten year olds to do all the testing, they'd soon find the weaknesses!

.

You may remember that KMX started out with a kids recumbent trike design, and the first road test I saw was

with someone's youngster testing it. He promptly hurtled down a slope into a bend and flipped it. Leaping

back onto his feet he yelled out in delight "I barrel rolled it!"

 

Once he got the hang of it better, the kid rounded corners with the rear wheel drifting out and soon ripped the

tread off the rear tyre.

 

Maybe we should get ten year olds to do all the testing, they'd soon find the weaknesses!

.

I fund that although they may not be methodical giving my applications to the kids for five minis to look at. Gives me a idea of how things react when used in a way that i did not make them for

 

davidk

You may remember that KMX started out with a kids recumbent trike design, and the first road test I saw was

with someone's youngster testing it. He promptly hurtled down a slope into a bend and flipped it. Leaping

back onto his feet he yelled out in delight "I barrel rolled it!"

 

Once he got the hang of it better, the kid rounded corners with the rear wheel drifting out and soon ripped the

tread off the rear tyre.

 

Maybe we should get ten year olds to do all the testing, they'd soon find the weaknesses!

.

 

I remember it well. I strongly suspect there is a difference between a 10 year old on a £300 kmx and a fat mid 40s bloater on a £1,000 plus commute to work. I remember seeing the videos when it first came out. I think that more than anything else at the time made me wish I was a kid again. They looked so much fun. I was waiting for someone to fit a big roll cage to one so they could roll the thing - have it bounce back onto it wheels and just drive on. That would have been so cool but if didn't seem to happen. I had great hopes that those cheap KMXs would get kids out and riding again but they didn't seem to catch on that well.

 

Everso

Edited June 21, 200916 yr by Everso

 

I think that more than anything else at the time made me wish I was a kid again. They looked so much fun.

 

I had great hopes that those cheap KMXs would get kids out and riding again but they didn't seem to catch on that well.

 

Everso

 

The same with me, one of the very few times I regretted my age!

 

I had the same hopes of them getting kids out riding them, and at £350 it could have happened. The kids

would have loved it, but the trouble is more to do with over-protective parents not wanting their kids to

cycle at all. Those not allowed bikes seem to be in the majority in my area.

.

The Currie drive kits are now virtually unobtainable in Europe, there may be a few lying about I've got a few bits but I do not know if they would amount to a whole set. The best way to get them would be to ask at an Izip dealer for spares, motor, controller buy a kit in pieces or even a cheap bike.

I know Flecc seams to dislike direct drive motors, but they are not all rubbish, I've fitted one to an old trike, a 4011. At 36v on an upright bike they used to give enough assistance to pull me and my two kids on a You Plus Two up a short but steep 1 in 10, for a current draw of around 10 amps. The 4011 is the lowest powered Crystalyte motor putting out an absolute peak of 220 watts, (I tested one on a bench to see how accurate the manufactures figures were). The trike owner mentioned above was running at 60v. If I was going to use a direct drive motor I would go for a 408 Crystalyte, ( quite fast, good hill climbing, reasonably economical and cheap) or a Bionx. The other Chinese products are an unknown quantity.

 

These have a disadvantage in that the motor is permanently engaged, this results in motor drag. This clogging torque is felt with the motor turned off and is a drag at speed, the cheaper Crystalyte has much more drag than the Bionx, as such once fitted a bike becomes an e-bike only with the Crystalyte, at least at high speeds. I used them for about 10 years, no one I built a bike for was disappointed (maybe first e-bike/ low expectations).

The Ezee kits shouldn't be ruled out, I have always felt they were overpriced for Chinese kits, but they do have service back up and a decent guarantee on the battery, which may well be worth paying the premium for.If you only need help on hills, fitting a motor into a smaller rim gives excellent results if you have to use a 26" motor.

The other option which I have being watching for some time is the Elation from Australia, ( elation.au I think ). They have told me that they will have a new stock of kits in by the middle of July. They have a freewheeling 3 speed chainring a motor clutch and a frame mounted battery pack included in the kit which should cost around £550 plus posting. I will be getting a sample hopefully and will post a review.

I also think that the Cyclone kit has now being updated along similar lines, I've seen a few on e-bay, but they could be cheap copies of the Elation, buyer beware.

Were can I find KMX's?