January 7, 20233 yr Check out cycling on this graph, not sure where an ebike would fit, perhaps not far from leg power. Urban Cycling Institute on Facebook. "'Just as the computer, the bicycle is a tool that amplifies our inherent abilities to spectacular magnitudes' — Steve Jobs (Scientific American measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. Humans on bikes blew all away!)"
January 7, 20233 yr > Humans on bikes blew all away Not at all. Flies are clear winners. I'd share in your challenge to that chart. Albatross and many sea fish not on it are the most efficient of all. Include all the rider's effort in maintenance, including puncture repairs, and bikes aren't quite as good as they superficially look. .
January 7, 20233 yr Author I'd share in your challenge to that chart. Albatross and many sea fish not on it are the most efficient of all. Include all the rider's effort in maintenance, including puncture repairs, and bikes aren't quite as good as they superficially look. . Even including maintenance they blow all other human transport away.
January 7, 20233 yr Even including maintenance they blow all other human transport away. Yes indeed. I just wish more would use them in the most efficient mode as we all used to years ago, content with only putting in walking effort but at about 3 times average walking speed. So many now ride much faster with considerable effort to battle air resistance for diminishing returns. .
January 7, 20233 yr This graph proves nothing but some academics had to much wine and play with statistic charts. Do you all remember Boris leaving Boing 747 all by himself while he was on a way to ecological convention? It does take considerably more fuel to transfer one Tory member from point A to point B than it takes to move ordinary working class person on Ryan flight. It is not just a single dot on a graph.
January 8, 20233 yr I think that graph comes from a Scientific American publication from approx 1973. Quite a few of those dots would have to be moved, aviation has become a lot more efficient over the last 50 years. I also don't like the animal comparisons. The ground based human transport on the graph requires the building and maintenance of roads to obtain those figures, which I doubt they have included in the calculation
January 8, 20233 yr Here we go, thought it was 73: [ATTACH type=full" alt="49980]49980[/ATTACH] Have you got the whole set?
January 8, 20233 yr Have you got the whole set? I used too, until the garage roof leaked. I didn't notice until it was too late and all my old journals got turned into a soggy slimy mess. That picture was from someone selling a copy on eBay
January 9, 20233 yr Despite the efficiency of bikes, most of us are still suck in transport poverty: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/09/entrenched-car-culture-leaves-millions-of-britons-in-transport-poverty
January 9, 20233 yr So many now ride much faster with considerable effort to battle air resistance for diminishing returns. Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others? So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course) Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too? From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all. So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits? Discuss, as they say.
January 9, 20233 yr [ATTACH type=full" alt="49981]49981[/ATTACH] Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others? So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course) Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too? From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all. So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits? Discuss, as they say. Wind resistance goes up with the square of the speed, so in simple terms, the slower the better provided the motor is operating close to its maximum efficiency, I.e. gearing is appropriate. But in energy per passenger mile, we are so far ahead, blasting at 25km/h on max assist is still orders of magnitude better than a fossil fuel car. 10Wh per mile is equivalent to about 4,500mpg primary fuel consumption on diesel.
January 9, 20233 yr Have you got the whole set? I knew he would and should have said that [mention=26000]WheezyRider[/mention] seemed the type.
January 9, 20233 yr Despite the efficiency of bikes, most of us are still suck in transport poverty: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/09/entrenched-car-culture-leaves-millions-of-britons-in-transport-poverty Drivers will hate increased taxes as a result of the building segregated cycle lanes, providing grants and subsidies for ebikes, which would push the cost onto the state.
January 9, 20233 yr Check out cycling on this graph, not sure where an ebike would fit, perhaps not far from leg power. Urban Cycling Institute on Facebook. "'Just as the computer, the bicycle is a tool that amplifies our inherent abilities to spectacular magnitudes' — Steve Jobs (Scientific American measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. Humans on bikes blew all away!)" [ATTACH=full]49975[/ATTACH] There's no mention of Covid. I suppose calories used by coronaviruses could be very tricky to calculate...
January 10, 20233 yr Drivers will hate increased taxes as a result of the building segregated cycle lanes, providing grants and subsidies for ebikes, which would push the cost onto the state. Drivers may resent spending on cycle infra, but they have nothing to complain about. A lot of drivers see the roads as theirs as they "pay road tax" - a tax that hasn't existed since 1937, car owners pay vehicle excise duty, which is effectively a licence to pollute. Everyone pays for roads through taxation, something like >£2000 per household, whether you own a car or not, so all roads and infra belongs to everyone. Something like 30 to 40% of households do not own a car, do they not get a say? About 18 months ago, the government announced £27 Billion to be spent on new road building. Active travel funding got something like few 100 million. Everything is way out of balance and it needs sorting.
January 10, 20233 yr [ATTACH=full]49981[/ATTACH] Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others? So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course) Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too? From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all. So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits? Discuss, as they say. As a guy on a bike you are probably not so easily intimidated by traffic. However, if you are a woman on your own or if you are a child cycling to school, it's a different matter. Would you let your 8 year old cycle through HGVs, Buses and fast moving traffic? In the NL, infra is designed so that it can be used safely by anyone from 8 upwards. So children there cycle to school and get used to cycling in all conditions. Cycling in the rain and cold isn't always a lot of fun, but it's a lot less of a stress than worrying how you are going to pay the bills to keep a car on the road. If you do a search you will find examples where people have calculated the cost of running a car and you can compare that to average household incomes. Bike motors are usually designed to reach peak efficiency at 25kph, so about 80% at around 200 to 250 rpm. This is independent of air resistance. There will be a compromise speed to give best speed for a given energy input. Have a look at some of the online simulators.
January 10, 20233 yr Something like 30 to 40% of households do not own a car, do they not get a say? Let's not make up figures. The 2021 census showed 20.7% of households did not have a car, halving your quoted top number. At that time there were 12 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain. .
January 10, 20233 yr Cycling in the rain and cold isn't always a lot of fun You can say that again. Yesterday as I walked the length of supermarket car park against a biting icy wind I was damn glad to get into my nice warm car to go the five miles home. Even more so when it started to pour with rain half way. And that's from someone who has cycled most of his long life. But I'm a realist who recognises how overwhelmingly attractive car ownership is, compared to the alternatives of cycling and public transport. That's why people still struggle to own a car, no matter what the cost. That's why I always owned a car in parallel with my cycling, even when the car was doing very few miles each year. That's why 74% of all over 17 year olds have a full driving licence and the majority of the rest have a provisional licence, over 9 million held currently with long waiting list for driving tests. .
January 10, 20233 yr Let's not make up figures. The 2021 census showed 20.7% of households did not have a car, halving your quoted top number. At that time there were 12 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain. . I'm not making up figures. I have seen numbers between 30 to 40%, depending where you are in the country. It is not always easy to get clear cut numbers - does it mean ownership, or just have access to a car? These fine details are important and often not clarified. I had not seen the Census figures for the entire country, but this shows that there is huge disparity depending on where you are. Also, even if it is more than a fifth, that's still a lot of people!
January 10, 20233 yr You can say that again. Yesterday as I walked the length of supermarket car park against a biting icy wind I was damn glad to get into my nice warm car to go the five miles home. Even more so when it started to pour with rain half way. And that's from someone who has cycled most of his long life. But I'm a realist who recognises how overwhelmingly attractive car ownership is, compared to the alternatives of cycling and public transport. That's why people still struggle to own a car, no matter what the cost. That's why I always owned a car in parallel with my cycling, even when the car was doing very few miles each year. That's why 74% of all over 17 year olds have a full driving licence and the majority of the rest have a provisional licence, over 9 million held currently with long waiting list for driving tests. . I agree. I used to think nothing of riding 80 miles in a day. As soon as I was 17 I got a licence, had a car by the time I was 18 and then almost totally stopped cycling. I took up cycling again later at various times but didn't really get serious with it until about 10 years ago. The problem is, the car might be the warm cosy option, but it's not sustainable on so many levels, pollution, cost, congestion, resource management, health etc, etc and, to be so dependent on the car and then allow our dependency to stop other people from seeking valid alternatives. Something has to give, or we are screwed as a human race.
January 10, 20233 yr The problem is, the car might be the warm cosy option, but it's not sustainable on so many levels, pollution, cost, congestion, resource management, health etc, etc and, to be so dependent on the car and then allow our dependency to stop other people from seeking valid alternatives. Something has to give, or we are screwed as a human race. Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it. Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were. A small example: Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting. But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing. So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated. So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong. . Edited January 10, 20233 yr by flecc
January 10, 20233 yr Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it. Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were. A small example: Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting. But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing. So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated. So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong. . The forecast I remember is we will all have jetpacks, I was so disappointed it not happening. But with today's people, perhaps it's as well.
January 10, 20233 yr Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it. Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were. A small example: Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting. But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing. So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated. So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong. . So you are saying we do nothing, let things get really bad and see what comes along, while we continue on a path that is obviously unsustainable?
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