With a full throttle, is it cycling?

 

Yes of course.

 

A motorcycle is a cycle and a pedal cycle is a cycle, when you ride either you are therefore cycling.

 

A bicycle, cycle or bike is a vehicle with two wheels. Therefore the term is valid for both bicycles and motorcycles.

 

An independent throttle on an electric bicycle simply makes riding a bicycle easier (and less dangerous in a lot of cases). Why would anyone want to deprive people with less ability to turn the cranks continuously from the joys of cycling?

 

Our bikes when fitted with a full throttle are no longer EAPC's (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles) they become Le1 mopeds, but enjoy the same freedoms as a non electric bike. They are a hybrid and can happily be pedaled without using the throttle or when the need arrises they can also be driven by the motor alone. Win win!

 

All the best, David

Edited January 29, 20251 yr by Wisper Bikes

Many. You can easily find some on youtube.

I haven't look for such instances myself, nor will I as it is virtually impossible to determine why the fire occurred. Was it:

• poorly built battery i.e. something coming loose in the pack (rather than down to how it was used)
  
• a controller pulling too much current for the battery cells
  
• and other reasons no doubt: miss use, poor design etc
   
  A well designed and constructed system isn't inherantly dangerous and the above are equally applicable to 250w rated motors or indeed any other motor rating.
  

I haven't look for such instances myself, nor will I as it is virtually impossible to determine why the fire occurred. Was it:

• poorly built battery i.e. something coming loose in the pack (rather than down to how it was used)
  
• a controller pulling too much current for the battery cells
  
• and other reasons no doubt: miss use, poor design etc
   
  A well designed and constructed system isn't inherantly dangerous and the above are equally applicable to 250w rated motors or indeed any other motor rating.
  

Statistics on Lithium battery fires in China indicate that most fires are from ternary or NMC batteries. from what I understand, the problem often occurs at the negative electrode.

Those batteries have their cathode made with Nickel, Manganese, Cobalt Oxides + liquid electrolyte. Poor uniformity of the grains and temperature sensitivity of chemical reactions between the cathode and the electrolyte shorten the life of those batteries and increase fire risk.

Unfortunately, volume production of e-bike batteries is small, there is nothing we can do but wait until LmFP cylindrical cells are made. By adding Manganese to the LFP cells, the gravimetric energy density comes close to NMC batteries that we still use on e-bikes.

A motorcycle is a cycle and a pedal cycle is a cycle, when you ride either you are therefore cycling.

 

A bicycle, cycle or bike is a vehicle with two wheels. Therefore the term is valid for both bicycles and motorcycles.

 

Sorry David, you can't get away with that, cycle is far too vague a generic term. We cycle all manner of things. My bin men were around earlier cycling, recycling my household waste.

 

The term EAPC says it all, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle, not Electric Assist Motor Cycle.

.

It isn't snobbery, I've explained it many times. It is to keep the bicycle as a bicycle in law and in fact, despite the assistance, and not become any form of motor vehicle. And what defines a bicycle is that it must be pedalled to make progress. (As Matthew comments above)

 

So an EAPCs's assistance must only be initiated and continued by the rider pedalling at all times assisted. When there is no pedalling, any motor input makes the machine a motor propelled vehicle in law and in fact.

 

What is so difficult to understand about that?

 

By all means argue for a change in motor vehicle law to allow a low powered, low speed, two wheeler class without driving licence etc. That already exists in other forms in some countries, for example France's "Voiture Sans Permit", it's a matter for local law, but little chance in Nanny State Britain.

.

It's pretty well irrelevant what their ideas or intentions are or were. The fact is that they allow bikes that can be assisted with full power by air-pedalling. Anyone, who has the ability to wave their legs around can do assisted pedalling, but some people don't have the strength to get started. If they're going to allow air-pedalling, they might as well allow twist and go.

Perhaps they should add an extra clause to be more (but not completely) inclusive.

As long as you can keep talking to your controller it is allowed to provide power to the motor.

Or a sensor on the rear rack; keep hitting it with your whip and power will be delivered.

Perhaps they should add an extra clause to be more (but not completely) inclusive.

As long as you can keep talking to your controller it is allowed to provide power to the motor.

Or a sensor on the rear rack; keep hitting it with your whip and power will be delivered.

That's a good point. You can ride a horse on the road and on bridle pats, and you don't have to walk or run to get it to go. How much power does it have? How fast is it allowed to go? Can you ride one through a pedestrian precinct?

How much power does it have?

 

746 watts?

Yet through it all is the elephant in the room contradiction of e-scooters. First there's the illegal to use on the road privately owned verses legal publicly hired thing. I'll just park that one !

One thing for sure is that in no way is a scooter electrically assisted - it is difinitlvely electrically powered. Therefore it is a motor vehicle. Yet we seem to be moving inexorably towards them being legally accepted. If they are accepted what precedent will this set for eapc throttles?

Yet through it all is the elephant in the room contradiction of e-scooters. First there's the illegal to use on the road privately owned verses legal publicly hired thing. I'll just park that one !

One thing for sure is that in no way is a scooter electrically assisted - it is difinitlvely electrically powered. Therefore it is a motor vehicle. Yet we seem to be moving inexorably towards them being legally accepted. If they are accepted what precedent will this set for eapc throttles?

 

We may end up with a back door ban. They were legal for a while in France, but now Paris where they were most used has totally banned them permanently. Our local authorities also have that power.

.

For the official DFT consultation update:

 

Proposed changes to legislation for electrically asisted pedal cycles – outcome - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Sorry David, you can't get away with that, cycle is far too vague a generic term. We cycle all manner of things. My bin men were around earlier cycling, recycling my household waste.

 

The term EAPC says it all, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle, not Electric Assist Motor Cycle.

.

 

Hi Tony!

 

Long time… I trust all is well.

 

I agree completely the term “cycle” is far too loose.

 

I have made the point that when a throttle is added to an EAPC, it is no longer an EAPC, it becomes a low powered electric moped. A fantastic bit of legislation allows the hybrid version to be ridden anywhere an EAPC is. The EAPC rules still apply though 250W nominal power, 15.5mph, only people over 14 may ride on the roads etc…

 

This concession makes EAPCs with throttles (Low Powered Electric Mopeds) 100% legitimate, this is not a loophole. Low Powered Electric Mopeds open the joys and benefits of “cycling” or to be more specific riding an EAPC to many, who without the use of a full throttle would not be able to enjoy “cycling” at all.

 

I should say that we have heard from many customers who have purchased a bicycle from Wisper because it has a throttle, who after a few months of riding have become fit enough not to use their throttle at all, often in a few short weeks. I simply don’t understand why anyone would object, surely this is a good thing?

 

All the best, David

Edited January 30, 20251 yr by Wisper Bikes

746 watts?

Is that continuous rated maximum power or what?

 

Actually, horses have been measured producing 11kw maximum.

Edited January 30, 20251 yr by saneagle

Is that continuous rated maximum power or what?

 

Continuous rated average electric horse power.

 

...I heard you can buy from Woosh above average rated electric horses.

I prefer 33,000 foot-pounds per minute.

Continuous rated average electric horse power.

 

...I heard you can buy from Woosh above average rated electric horses.

I think it is the electric horse that is above average. The rating is standard.

What would it take to make a legalising retrofit kit for those with ebikes which currently have illegal throttles? A second PAS disc connected to a computer which limits/delimits and varies throttle votage signal between 0V-5V depending on whether the rider is pedalling or starting from a standstill, limiting throttle assist speed to 4mph when starting off, and allowing up to 15.5mph if pedalling is detected? The Oi Copper! ThrottleMeNot!™ is invented.

Edited January 30, 20251 yr by guerney

What would it take to make a legalising retrofit kit for those with ebikes which currently have illegal throttles? A second PAS disc connected to a computer which limits/delimits and varies throttle votage signal between 0V-5V depending on whether the rider is pedalling or starting from a standstill, limiting throttle assist speed to 4mph when starting off, and allowing up to 15.5mph if pedalling is detected? The Oi Copper! ThrottleMeNot!™ is invented.

Already done. He used a separate speed sensor because motors rarely had them in those days. You can pick up the speed signal from the white motor wire instead.

 

https://avdweb.nl/solar-bike/electronics/pedelec-legalisation-device

We may end up with a back door ban. They were legal for a while in France, but now Paris where they were most used has totally banned them permanently. Our local authorities also have that power.

.

Our local authorities don't need to ban them as use of an e-scooter is already illegal except when renting in one of the 30 odd trial areas. It's enforcement by the police that is lacking.

I never knew these existed.

They exist, but there doesn't seem to be any provider of the right kind of insurance in the UK. I wonder what he uses.

Our local authorities don't need to ban them as use of an e-scooter is already illegal except when renting in one of the 30 odd trial areas. It's enforcement by the police that is lacking.

 

That's at present. I meant, as in the France I quoted, having national legality but local authority bans, back door bans killing them off where they are most used.

.

They exist, but there doesn't seem to be any provider of the right kind of insurance in the UK. I wonder what he uses.

"Speed Pedelec Insurance

 

Speed Pedelec insurance is a little more specialist due to their registration requirements, higher speeds and much higher values."

 

"You should keep in mind that the speed pedelecs are legally classified as a moped, no different than a Honda 50cc for example. When talking to insurance companies it’s not considered as a bicycle, but as a moped in terms of UK legislation."

 

https://urbanebikes.com/pages/insurance

 

Already done. He used a separate speed sensor because motors rarely had them in those days. You can pick up the speed signal from the white motor wire instead.

 

https://avdweb.nl/solar-bike/electronics/pedelec-legalisation-device

 

Cool! I was envisioning a weatherproof and small rechargeable battery powered gizmo, connected to the throttle and a PAS speed sensor, dangling under the throttle or on the handlebar, which disables throttle function when the battery runs out, easily installable on any ebike with a currently illegal throttle - not just for a specific controller or motor kit type. I'm quite happy without a throttle, but there are zillions of illegal throttlists out there with 0v-5V throttles, and they want to keep them. I reckon many wish they could make their throttle legal easily. Judging by the endless queries about adding throttles to various ebikes on this forum, an easy way to make throttles legal on cheap common ebikes and kits could be popular.

Edited January 31, 20251 yr by guerney

Cool! I was envisioning a weatherproof and small rechargeable battery powered gizmo, connected to the throttle and a PAS speed sensor, dangling under the throttle or on the handlebar, which disables throttle function when the battery runs out, easily installable on any ebike with a currently illegal throttle - not just for a specific controller or motor kit type. I'm quite happy without a throttle, but there are zillions of illegal throttlists out there with 0v-5V throttles, and they want to keep them. I reckon many wish they could make their throttle legal easily. Judging by the endless queries about adding throttles to various ebikes on this forum, an easy way to make throttles legal on cheap common ebikes and kits could be popular.

It's not a specific controller type. He just located it in the controller because it's easy to pick up the connections from there. All he did was take a branch off the throttle, speed and PAS signals as an input and process them to a single throttle output that cuts when you reach 15 mph and only has a value when pedalling. You already have the necessaary 5v power from the controller, so you don't need a battery.

 

If your controller has a global speed limit, like most LCD ones do, you don't need to worry about the speed input. It's then just a case of:

if pedalsensor pulsing; then throttlesignalout=throttlesignalin;

else throttlesignalout = 0