https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314178673809?chn=ps&_ul=GB&var=612822918195&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1vb6IkvdbTJ-AsJNJiUoZVQ38&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=612822918195_314178673809&targetid=2425733423477&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=2826&poi=&campaignid=21697391927&mkgroupid=162558106770&rlsatarget=aud-1415330310908:pla-2425733423477&abcId=10027104&merchantid=137674477&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6oi4BhD1ARIsAL6pox3Mj5b6PMbfVAaa39u59CwIqaYUBgAYPY8arVhpf8TaWgljirnLjQ8aAu4oEALw_wcB

 

i thought my tyres was expensive and i bet there like tissue paper

Does any one know how lime bikes can have dual motors assuming that they are both 250 w minimum fitted on both wheels ? Combined 500 w

If you have two motors the same, then they have to be no more than 125w each. 125w motors are not easy to find.

Edited October 6, 20241 yr by saneagle

 

Wow !

sorry if I have not read all of this yet I was working today .

 

I thought of this too when holding a bike back wheel off the ground it’s going to go faster on the clock without weight on it .

 

I think to be on the safe side and protect my professional driving licence I will just unplug or remove the thumb throttle for the time being.

 

That said I think I am going to get a big fat tyre bike with Two hub motors and make it into a road legal mop head with pedals left in tact I remember from the 70s there was a market for this type of bike and I think they will come back in a EV form because of demand for them v cost .

 

so like a lot of new things a bit Wild West they will be regulated then all the big companies will move in and dominate the market as usual.

 

Does any one know how lime bikes can have dual motors assuming that they are both 250 w minimum fitted on both wheels ? Combined 500 w

 

I cant say for sure about lime bikes but since they are hire bikes from the same source as the hire-scooters which afaik are mostly 500w+ perhaps they fall under the same 'system trial loophole' as the scooters??

If indeed they have 2x 250w rated motors, though if the order is of a sufficient size im sure they could get any ratting they wanted stamped on the motors.

 

Hope you share your plans and the build of the moped, some of the machines that have been displayed in here are inspiring to say the least..

There is no such thing as a throttle on an ebike.

To be fair modern motorcycles and less than modern cars often use ride/drive by wire for their throttles. Simple electronic position sensors that give information to the ECU to decide what to do.

To be fair modern motorcycles and less than modern cars often use ride/drive by wire for their throttles. Simple electronic position sensors that give information to the ECU to decide what to do.

Motorbikes still have the throttles. On modern ones, the twistgrip works a throttle controller. It's an indirect throttle control rather than a direct one.Ebikes never had or have throttles, since they don't need air for the power. If you used the analogy for an ebike, the torque sensor or pedal sensor would be the indirect control for the power throttling, which all ebikes are allowed to have by law.

 

All types of input devices including twistgrips have always been completely legal for UK ebikes. What's not allowed is to get power without pedalling no matter what device or system you use to get it.

What's not allowed is to get power without pedalling no matter what device or system you use to get it.

 

That is simply not true. I posted two links above.

May I add this to what saneagle said? The word 'pedalling' does not mean that you have to propel your bike with your own force, ghost pedalling is fine.

That is simply not true. I posted two links above.

There's always somebody trying to make stuff more complicated. What you said is true, but not really what the discussion is about. You're just going to confuse everyone.

No Andy. You can have legal EAPC with a throttle. Insurance, helmets are not required by law (but recommended).

 

I am not sure why [mention=4]flecc[/mention] agreed with your comment. Perhaps he would like to elaborate.

 

I took Andy's meaning to be as he explained, at 15.5 mph.

 

This whole issue has become a terrible mess, and it is almost enirely the fault of British pedelecers, thanks to their constant demands to have throttles. In the continental countries where they ride pedelecs en masse in ways we've never done, they manage just fine without a throttle and don't constantly ask for them.

 

The original regulation was perfectly clear, never any power without pedalling while on board the bicycle. Completely separately, the law for pedestrian controlled powered trailers permitted "walk alongside" power.

 

Since then we've stupidly confused it in these ways:

 

The DfT pretending there is a loophole by getting Type Approval. IT IS NOT A LOOPHOLE, firstly because individual vehicles can never be Type Approved, secondly because if the pretence of Single Vehicle Approval is used instead, they are no longer EAPCs, they become Motor Vehicles in law (this confirmed by Wisper), the DfT merely saying they'll treat them as EAPCs here in Great Britain only.

 

Second, the stretching of the Walk Assist meaning to have Start Assist while on board.

 

Third, the absence of any stated law for kit motors interpreted as meaning the operational law on the roads for no power without pedalling doesn't apply to them, worse still this supported by the DfT.

 

And of course the whole nonsense of Grandfather Rights which in fact have NEVER existed.

 

All that was ever necessary was for the DfT to admit they made a completely mess of introducing the EU regulations on 10th November 2003 and promptly correcting that. Instead, rather than do that, they've made the legal mess far, far worse in front of your eyes in ways you don't even realise yet.

 

One day I might explain that to you all.

.

Second, the stretching of the Walk Assist meaning to have Start Assist while on board.

 

Where does the law state start assist is legal?

Where does the law state start assist is legal?

 

It doesn't, that is why I referred to "stretching" the walk assist law.

.

It doesn't, that is why I referred to "stretching" the walk assist law.

.

 

The police confiscating all ebikes with throttles is lawful?

The police confiscating all ebikes with throttles is lawful?

 

I haven't said or implied anything like that.

 

Throttles on EAPCs are not illegal anyway, they can only become illegal if they can operate without pedalling above 6 kph / 4 mph.

.

Edited October 7, 20241 yr by flecc

I haven't said or implied anything like that.

 

Throttles on EAPCs are not illegal anyway, they can only become illegal if they can operate without pedalling above 6 kph / 4 mph.

.

 

I don't understand. The throttles you describe are not illegal and the law doesn't state 6kph throttles for start assist are legal?

I don't understand. The throttles you describe are not illegal and the law doesn't state 6kph throttles for start assist are legal?

 

The law says nothing at all about throttles and never has done.

 

This is the exemption that allows EAPCs to remain bicycles in law and not motor vehicles:

 

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h.

 

In other words, power only when pedalling.

.

The law says nothing at all about throttles and never has done.

 

This is the exemption that allows EAPCs to remain bicycles in law and not motor vehicles:

 

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h.

 

In other words, power only when pedalling.

.

 

So would you consider the KT controller setting that I detailed in post#62 legal?

 

"Also, I've been studying KT controller settings in advance of buying one. There are various settings under C4 Throttle Function Parameters.

Under P4=1 Non-zero startup, Value 3 is " Before power-assist, the throttle speed limit is 6km/h, after power assist throttle is full speed. Stop power-assist, return throttle speed to 6km/h."

I interpret this as a 6km/h throttle without pedalling and once above 6km/h the throttle will operate up to the set speed (say 24.5km/h) limit while pedaling. Stop pedalling and it will only operate up to 6km/h without pedalling again.

If I'm right this seems to me to the cover the legal requirements. Importantly, if plod tests by lifting the wheel and operating the throttle it will only run up to 6km/h.

I hope I'm right as this is one of the major attractions for me of switching from a Yose to KT controller."

The law says nothing at all about throttles and never has done.

 

This is the exemption that allows EAPCs to remain bicycles in law and not motor vehicles:

 

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h.

 

In other words, power only when pedalling.

.

 

The police can't enforce laws which don't exist. How can "My 6kph throttle is not illegal" be adequate defence when throttles are not mentioned in law?

The law says nothing at all about throttles and never has done.

 

This is the exemption that allows EAPCs to remain bicycles in law and not motor vehicles:

 

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h.

 

In other words, power only when pedalling.

I'm not disagreeing, just (like many others) confused.

Where did you find those conditions (h)?

 

Looking at a government website I see

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/smarter-regulation-proposed-changes-to-legislation-for-electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles/smarter-regulation-proposed-changes-to-legislation-for-electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles

Current EAPC regulations (as amended in 2015) set out the requirements an EAPC has to meet so as to fall outside the definition of motor vehicle contained within the Road Traffic Acts and to be treated as a cycle. The requirements are that the:

• cycle must be fitted with pedals that are capable of propelling it
  
• maximum continuous rated power of the electric motor must not exceed 250 watts
  
• electrical assistance must cut off when the vehicle reaches 15.5mph (25km/h)
  

which does not mention or exclude throttle, and appears to allow it; capable of propelling it.not where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling

 

BUT there is the the extra caveat

Throttle assistance

EAPCs that provide electrical assistance without the use of pedals are usually known as ‘twist and go’ e-cycles. It is possible to use these cycles in the same way as any other EAPC. However, under assimilated EU Regulation 168/2013, vehicles with throttle assistance above 3.73mph (6km/h) require type approval.

 

As I understand it assimilated EU regulations are just as much law as specific UK regulations (Current EAPC regulations (as amended in 2015)), so the law does mention throttle.

 

I have seen comments before that 'official' government web pages are often wrong; which adds even more to the confusion.

So would you consider the KT controller setting that I detailed in post#62 legal?

 

"Also, I've been studying KT controller settings in advance of buying one. There are various settings under C4 Throttle Function Parameters.

Under P4=1 Non-zero startup, Value 3 is " Before power-assist, the throttle speed limit is 6km/h, after power assist throttle is full speed. Stop power-assist, return throttle speed to 6km/h."

I interpret this as a 6km/h throttle without pedalling and once above 6km/h the throttle will operate up to the set speed (say 24.5km/h) limit while pedaling. Stop pedalling and it will only operate up to 6km/h without pedalling again.

If I'm right this seems to me to the cover the legal requirements. Importantly, if plod tests by lifting the wheel and operating the throttle it will only run up to 6km/h.

I hope I'm right as this is one of the major attractions for me of switching from a Yose to KT controller."

 

It appears to be completely right. The problem is convincing the police that throttles are not illegal in themselves, only if they are illegally used at any time, i.e. over 6kph without pedalling.

.

The police can't enforce laws which don't exist. How can "My 6kph throttle is not illegal" be adequate defence when throttles are not mentioned in law?

 

Exactly, a throttle law doesn't exist for the police to enforce, so why would you need a defence?

.

The police can't enforce laws which don't exist. How can "My 6kph throttle is not illegal" be adequate defence when throttles are not mentioned in law?

Simple: forget the word 'throttle' which does not appear in the law, and work from the wording that is there. As stated in earlier posts, no power without pedalling above 6km/h.

Exactly, a throttle law doesn't exist for the police to enforce, so why would you need a defence?

.

 

Because the throttles you describe do exist and the police have on more than occasion stated any ebike with a throttle is illegal. Surely police forces have consulted legal experts before making such statements?

BUT there is the the extra caveat

Throttle assistance

EAPCs that provide electrical assistance without the use of pedals are usually known as ‘twist and go’ e-cycles. It is possible to use these cycles in the same way as any other EAPC. However, under assimilated EU Regulation 168/2013, vehicles with throttle assistance above 3.73mph (6km/h) require type approval.

 

That doesn't state throttles under 6km/h are legal. Nor does it state whether one has to be pedalling or not while using a throttle under 6km/h.

Because the throttles you describe do exist and the police have on more than occasion stated any ebike with a throttle is illegal.

 

The police do not and cannot make the law, so challenge them to produce such a law.

 

If they can find someone knowledgeable enough, they'll only find that such a throttle is permitted, not banned.

 

That is in this technical regulation:

 

EN 15194:2009 (E) 13 4.2.4.3 Start up assistance mode 4.2.4.3.1 Requirements: EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented. This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.

 

One snag with EN15194 is that it's adoption was voluntary and only France and Great Britain in the EU at the time adopted it and we are stuck with it since. But of course that is good, since it proves the police are wrong about having any throttle being illegal.

.