January 20, 201016 yr Maybe I'm asking too much, but I do want some speed as well If I can get 20mph over the bumpy stuff, I'll be pretty happy with that. Your battery is getting bigger and more expensive, how long are you hoping to run it for on one charge?
January 20, 201016 yr Author Oh I do realise that the more power the motor uses, the shorter the running time will be for a given battery, but don't really know how about battery sizes, weights and costs. If I can get a 10 mile range over off-road, bumpy, hilly terrain I would be pretty happy. On the other hand, maybe with the added speed and ease of riding, I'll might end up wanting to extend that. Regarding battery mounting, I do like the BionX style and also the Crystalite ones, which appear to use the drinks bottle bosses. The Crystalite ones appear to be a fair bit cheaper too. The crystalite 350w kit looks to be well suited to me, and it all looks good when mounted. (Check out the 2nd picture in the 'click to enlarge' bit)
January 20, 201016 yr How is all the extra weight going to affect the downhill handling of the bike? 13Kg is quite a lot more I would have thought?
January 20, 201016 yr I don't think it's been mentioned yet but having a rear hub or chain drive restricts the number and range of gears that you can have, I find the seven speed freewheel my Wisper is restricted to isn't really enough for my road riding. I'm hoping the Alfine hub will fix that. 10 miles over rough ground at speed and mainly uphill is going to need a battery somewhere in the region of 5Kg and £600. That's a rough guess as it's not an exact science by a long shot, but if that seems a bit much then you need to review your plans. If you bring down the speed and increase your effort then the battery gets smaller quickly.
January 20, 201016 yr If I can get a 10 mile range over off-road, bumpy, hilly terrain I would be pretty happy. On the other hand, maybe with the added speed and ease of riding, I'll might end up wanting to extend that. The crystalyte 36v 9Ah should be fine for 10 miles over rough ground (if not all uphill). Slogging through mud would be a different matter.
January 20, 201016 yr You need to think about what speed you are planning on doing. The Crystalite 400 series are direct drive, and they don't start to get efficient until you are doing more than about 15 mph - obviously it depends on wheel size, but I'm assuming you're likely to be on 26". To do 15 mph+ off road and/or uphill will take quite some power. If the likely operating speed is lower, then a geared hub motor would be better, such as the eZee kit. Nick
January 20, 201016 yr The link to BionX distributor I put in earlier post has the 250 watt kits in stock for 1100 euro (£956 at todays ex rate) I have emailed them re availability of 350 watt kit. as these are Euro kits no throttle I guess.......would a thumb throttle be easy to fit? I guess a throttle could be had from Canada?
January 21, 201016 yr Author Its interesting that I started this thread asking about 1000w motors, and now, from your advice, seem to be thinking that 350w is actually better for me because of range, price, weight and kit type! After weighing up the options, BionX and Crystalyte are still top for me, however given that the 350w Crystalyte kit is 2/3 the price of the BionX, and has similar fitting characteristics, (battery mount etc) and is european, its may well be sneaking ahead! Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time? I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar?
January 21, 201016 yr Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time? It will take up to 7 speed. For 8 speed you may need to spread the frame a little and also use a spacer. I doubt if 9 speed is possible. I think you can use the disk at the same time but am not 100% sure. If you email ebikes.ca, they will know. I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar? ebikes.ca always called the brushed motor 409. They never sold the brushless 409 so it it not on the simulator.
January 21, 201016 yr Its interesting that I started this thread asking about 1000w motors, and now, from your advice, seem to be thinking that 350w is actually better for me because of range, price, weight and kit type! After weighing up the options, BionX and Crystalyte are still top for me, however given that the 350w Crystalyte kit is 2/3 the price of the BionX, and has similar fitting characteristics, (battery mount etc) and is european, its may well be sneaking ahead! Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time? I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar?A 1000W motor makes it legally an unregistered motorbike, if you use that at a MTB centre someone will get upset. If the police get involved and see you are riding an unregistered and uninsured motorbike in a public place that motorbikes aren't allowed then you'll quite likely be seeing the magistrate. A 250W ebike is different legally and people can report you all they want but you won't need a brief, they are less likely to report you anyway. If you get a 350W motor just make sure that isn't written on it and you'll probably be fine, lots of people bend the rules a little bit. Remember rear hubs take freewheels and not cassettes, I think the max number of gears on a freewheel is 7.
January 21, 201016 yr Having just seen the BionX install vid in another thread I'd question the viability of the Bionx battery mounting for off road use, it just doesn't seem that well secured for off road use...
January 21, 201016 yr Having just seen the BionX install vid in another thread I'd question the viability of the Bionx battery mounting for off road use, it just doesn't seem that well secured for off road use... I use a Crystalyte case for my battery (not the latest version) and very similar to BionX. It is mounted using two screws where the bottle is normally attached. If I was throwing the bike around off-road I think I would want to add to the mounting to make it more secure.
January 21, 201016 yr Gaffa tape If I put any more Gaffa tape on my bike I won't be able to pick it up
January 21, 201016 yr Author I have emailed Crystalyte-Europe, to find out whether the 409 motor can take a 9 speed freewheel, and a disk brake at the same time. They say it can! Something I forgot to ask about was the battery mounting, using the bike's bottle bosses. My frame is not a standard diamond frame. Here are some pictures. Hopefully you can give me some idea whether the battery box can still be fitted. It needs to go underneath the down-tube because thats where the water bottle can be fitted, and it looks pretty tight to me! Side View Angle View Bottom View Another Bottom View From their website: The battery Picture of the kit fitted to normal mountain bike Sorry for fuzziness of first pic! I have also sent these four pictures to Crystalyte for their opinion. Thanks again, Rob
January 21, 201016 yr That looks a difficult bike for a kit......I am in no way technical, but someone else may see a way:) you got be thinking now......£766 + postage Make sure you order correct size wheel though!lol This is unbelievable! a 100 kph E bike with 3000 watt motor and a suitcase on the back Edited January 21, 201016 yr by eddieo
January 21, 201016 yr I would take a good look at the rear Ezee kit that ebikes.ca offers. I converted my full suspension Giant NRS2 with it. With a 48V battery and the 20 amp controller you'll get ~1000W peak through a geared hub motor. The Ezee hub motor can take a 9 speed freewheel and is disc brake compatible. I had to switch to a larger diameter disc and use an andapter though, as 165mm discs won't clear the hub with most calipers. I built a triangular battery myself, 48.1V nominal, 9.9Ah, from 117 round 18650 Konion cells (taken from Bosch FatPacks). The battery is mounted in a custom made frame bag from Epic Designs. Quite stealthy You can get front hub motors that are disc brake compatibe too (the Ezee is) but a heavy front wheel is no good off-road... Also, ebikes.ca's customer support is top notch. You'll get all the technical support you'll ever need from Justin. They're even building a custom DC-DC converter (20V/2A) for me so I can run my TrailTech 30W HID spot from the main battery.
January 21, 201016 yr The 1000w at 48v claimed with the Ezee kit is power consumption not output. Typically you can knock 30% off. I've just checked on the E-bike.ca simulator, they show 700w peak for the Ezee but only 600w for the 408 Crystalyte, both at 48v. When I got hold of my first batch of Crystalyte motors I went to the trouble of plotting power curves for them, they pretty much matched the makers claims. I did the same with my first SB motor, this was before E-bike.ca's simulator was produced. Memran if you want to do 20mph forget the 409 it's only good for about 16 flat out, the no load speed is around the 18mph mark at 36v. I haven't got my old graphs and result sheets, I moved office about 10 years ago and I cann't find them. so I'm going from memory a bit. The 4011 produced 220w peak with over 200w output from 5 to 10 mph. The 409 produced about 320w peak, with 200w available from around 5 to 12 mph. The 408 was the surprise it peaked at something like 380w at 13 mph but had 200w from 4 to 20mph, The SB motor I had was a 20" motor in a 700c wheel it's peak out put was just under 500w at 16 mph, it had 200w from 4 to 20mph, on the same bike with the same battery and tyres it was slower by around 2 mph than the 408 and had a noticeably shorter range, but it seemed to climb shallow hills faster. If you want to go fast the 409 will disappoint, but even with it's low power it will still boost you up the hills, I have towed my two kids with one up some steep bits without much problem. With your frame I would recommend putting the battery in a rucksack, below your frame it's going to be a little vulnerable, it works for Steve.
January 21, 201016 yr Is the paratrooper the ugliest electric mountain bike out there?? I think they look the business, esp the swiss with matt black frame. simple, functional what more do we need. Biggest thing stopping me buying a trooper is you have to remove the front wheel, not exactly refined for a folder in that price bracket.
January 22, 201016 yr The 1000w at 48v claimed with the Ezee kit is power consumption not output. Typically you can knock 30% off. I've just checked on the E-bike.ca simulator, they show 700w peak for the Ezee but only 600w for the 408 Crystalyte, both at 48v. Memran if you want to do 20mph forget the 409 it's only good for about 16 flat out, the no load speed is around the 18mph mark at 36v. Sure, it's consumption. If 700W is not enough, get the Infineon controller which is limited at 28A. Then you'll be over 1000W net. I have the Infineon (peak 1400W), top speed is just below 30 mph.
January 23, 201016 yr I went for the Ezee kit on my Specialized Epic full sus mountain bike and it's brilliant off road. I have it on the front and as mentioned by someone recently it was very useful in the snow (2 wheel drive works!). I have a 185mm disc brake on the front as well. I changed the controller to a 48v one and made my own NiMH battery pack (6 Ahr at 4.5kg) - get over 20mph and 12 mile range - enough for my needs to work off-road. Pulls 1200W peak and 24 amps so i't a very good hub. The bike is brill for general tracks and goes up really steep hills (spins up the wheel very easily on the loose stuff). I carry the battery in my rucksack for the very bumpy stuff. I would really reccommend the Ezee - £250 for the wheel and hub. For the 20+mph you will need to mod it.
January 23, 201016 yr Otherwise, the Puma offers decent high-output: Der Umbausatz MONTAGUE FOLDING BIKES from Team Hybrid. Puma Hub Kits http://www.das-elektrorad.de/Bilder/rear2.JPG I've heard good reports about the BMC solution as well: BMC Hub Motor - Google Search Lots of options after all Cheers, Dan You should probably look into the Suzhou Bafang BPM hub motor, the torque and speed characteristics would meet your requirements it seems (350W nominal or less, depending on input current). CLIMBER——bpm series -Suzhou Bafang Electric Motor Science-Technology Co.,Ltd Bafang BPM - Google Search http://www.bmsbattery.com/images/Motor_8Fun.jpg http://www.jobike.it/Public/data/zappan/20091026134624_bpm.jpg
January 25, 201016 yr I've heard good reports about the BMC solution as well: 600W continuous, very good reputation but poor "cottage industry" support: BMC V2-T 600W High-Torque Rear Hub Motor Kit [V2-T] - $897.00 : Cycle 9, commuter bikes, electric bikes, e-bike kits, accessories and more BMC V2-T 600W High-Torque Rear Hub Motor - $635.00 : Cycle 9, commuter bikes, electric bikes, e-bike kits, accessories and more http://www.cycle9.com/c9store/images/attributes/BMC_v2T-bare.JPG http://www.cycle9.com/c9store/images/12Days/V2_T_Wheel.jpg
January 27, 201016 yr Author Update! I have decided to go with the disk brake version of the 409 (more torque but lower speed) kit that I listed earlier, but with the controller upgraded to 20A instead of 12A. Ordered and awaiting delivery! Wow I feel like a child awaiting gifts before Christmas! lol
January 27, 201016 yr Ordered and awaiting delivery! Out of interest, where are you buying from? Herb
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