When idiots buy things like this...

... and have accidents involving peds with them, there will be the usual 'ban it' outcry from the knee-jerkers.

This damn thing is far more an e-motorcycle than bicycle and is really taking the p. I expect that in Germany the owner /designer is quite careful to keep it legal, and fair enough for that, but in other states there will be some other buyers who think it falls into the bicycle category and not bother with insurance, etc.

 

I expect that in Germany the owner /designer is quite careful to keep it legal,

 

Easy in Germany, they have separate high speed and high power e-bike classes [40 kph (25 mph) / 500 watts] that's denied to other EU citizens, not by Europe but by their national governments.

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Round my way at the moment the police are having a crackdown on illegal number plates. A trivial matter, changing the type faces on them from the legal one. It was being ignored by the law but in doing this, became so rife that the police have been effectively slapped in the face by open law breaking. So they have been forced to crack down.

 

Not so Lemmy, as anyone reading the motorcycle press will know. This has always been a popular thing for the police to hunt down and I remember regular witch hunts on these plates many years ago by police forces all over the country.

 

That's worth their while with about 2 million motorbikes on the road, and motorcyclists are very unpopular with large sector of the public so it's win, win for the police.

 

With probably less than 60,000 widely scattered not easily identified active e-bikes on the UK's roads and most of the public not even knowing such things even exist, there's nothing in it for the police but lots of work for poor returns.

 

Wildlife crime is far more popular a subject with the public and huge media publicity is given to offences, but also being difficult to detect, it gets at most one wildlife officer per entire force.

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Perhaps the purge on "wrong number plates" was directed at all motorists (both cars and motorcycles) as thats what cops and VOSA do here.

 

riding back through Ipswich, I have already seen one young lad in his 20s on an e-scooter (he did have helmet, number plates etc), looked like any other similar scooter except I could tell by how quiet it was.

 

I help run a forum about the electronic dance music scene/raves where as you would expect there are a lot of young people. Many of them are interested in all sorts of vehicles with wheels, and bicycles, e-bikes are seen as cool, especially as the forum attracts a group of people who are fairly "environmentally aware" - and smart enough to realise electric two wheelers are quieter than mopeds and scooters . Other, older youths are cursing the not inconsiderable costs of running their cars, especially if they drive alone...

 

Whilst I don't think that e-bikes which can do 18-20mph are that much of an interest to the cops if ridden safely - I do feel going beyond this will eventually attract attention and would agree with lemmy's call for caution - and there definitely are younger people interested in e-bikes particularly those aged 15-25, maybe its more in the South and East but they are there..

 

There was already that tracksuit-wearing Welsh lad in his 30s who keeps getting grief off the heddlu as his legal 15mph "scooter-style" e-bike is mistaken for an illegal high power scooter...

 

for years the forum I help run could openly talk about unlicensed raves, drug use and all sorts.

 

Contrary to the moral panics there aren't that many people involved with the dance music scene either - just a few tens of thousands - even in the 1990s it was still a minority youth subculture but made to look bigger than it was because a lot of meedja types were involved in it and brought the imagery to much media of the time.

 

from mid 2000s onwards there was a crackdown on these things - we started getting loads of "interesting" traffic in the forum not just from the British Police and other government agencies, but foreign ones too! (raves are of course held worldwide). The cops even made it quite clear to us on a number of occasions that the forums would be used as evidence against people involved in crimes.

 

The forum still continues as people have self-censored what they publish on there, but no one is above the law and free speech always has a cost.

Edited August 28, 201015 yr by Alex728

''Whilst I don't think that e-bikes which can do 18-20mph are that much of an interest to the cops if ridden safely - I do feel going beyond this will eventually attract attention and would agree with lemmy's call for caution - and there definitely are younger people interested in e-bikes particularly those aged 15-25, maybe its more in the South and East but they are there..''

 

If this is the case -where are they ? At 25 years old you are no longer a child

and definitions of 'cool' may have modified [due to circumstance]. I have never seen a child/young adult on an ebike. The perceived social implictions inolved with raves etc are not really equated with ebikes.I don't believe there is a problem--but keep shouting loud enough--who knows ?

Children and young teenagers up to about 14/15 are keenly interested in e-bikes over the years as I know from the large number who have shown high interest and cadged rides on my bikes.

 

That has never translated into one of them ever buying an e-bike though, four of them at least went on to buy mopeds at 16 years old, one group of three friends proudly showing them to me. That only lasted just over a year, so they may have gone over to cars now as so many teenagers do, and the fourth one abandoned mopeds after a serious smash.

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at present the high cost of an e-bike puts a lot of younger folk off - I was equally suprised to see the young lad on an electric scooter as I myself had consider them to be more popular with the older folk here, but it does seem like a pointer to the future.

 

I have seen several 20 somethings on e-bikes recently. They tend to be the cheaper models like Izip/Curries and the Chinese clones, but they are there.

 

In the villages here a lot of young folk get grief off the old bill for the noise that scooters and mopeds make, as they gather late at night. This isn't as much an issue with electric vehicles.

 

not all young folk want to make a din with their vehicles - they have the music scene when they want to make a noise

 

I think East Anglia is a pioneering area for e-bikes due to a similar terrain to NL, a larger cycling culture than other regions, and also close proximity to ports so items can be imported fairly easy.

 

I was discussing this with my Transition Town group earlier this week and we all agreed that the real reason younger (and not so young!) people go from small mopeds to cars is what appears to be a unique thing to Britain - the CBT (which is viewed as a "driving test" irrespective of its real reasons) expires after 2 years.

 

This of course affects younger folk a lot more than those who got a license before 2001...

 

As far as I am aware no other EU nation does this - many nations do not require the CBT test at all (although NL is introducing something similar for the bromfiets.. but without expiry date) and in these countries once you have got it you are licensed to ride the small moped for as long as you want. As in the UK you need to either retake the CBT or take a full motorcycle or car test, a lot of young people quite understandably then decide they might as well get a car license!

Edited August 28, 201015 yr by Alex728

Not so Lemmy, as anyone reading the motorcycle press will know

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I'm talking about cars.

 

I stick to my point which some people seem able to understand and some do not. I cannot see the profit in entertaining here people who wish to discuss and brag about their illegal machinery. It tars us all as immature wannabe motorcyclists and we're not, mostly we're mature adults who use and discuss a practical and legal means of transport.

 

Anyone who brags about a e-bicycle that will do 28mph is probably a teenager since any adult who wants to go fast will be buying a proper motorcycle, for which there are many suitable forums.

 

We shouldn't encourage kids to be irresponsible - not that some of them need any encouragement

The kinetic energy absorbed by the pedestrian when you pile into them.

 

As soon as there is a nasty accident involving an illegally modified bike,

 

Or any E bike BTW

the youngest people on this forum are in their late 20s, those who appear to have the home-constructed high power machines are old enough to be my parents or even grandparents

 

many of the smarter teenagers and youths (who have grown up in todays panopticon society) actually know better these days than to brag about anything controversial or illegal online.

 

take a lesson from China, in many regions their authorities chose not to enforce the road traffic regulations until a spate of injury/fatal collisions, and China is not a country exactly known for tolerant attitudes from authorities..

I don't believe there is a problem--but keep shouting loud enough--who knows ?

 

Just what I said back some:confused:

This one is a bit like the helmet wearing debate, not going anywhere.

 

One thing is certain, people will continue to post in varying ways about illegality regarding e-bikes, and only time will tell if it brings any official reaction.

 

Some will say it won't

 

Some will say it might

 

Some will say it probably will

 

Some will say it's very likely it will

 

No-one I've seen says it definitely will

 

Draw your own conclusions, someone's opinion might be shifted slightly by debate, but none will shift from one end to the other.

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On a more positive note, one can get a 500W or 1kw e-bike and then insure it correctly. That is perfectly legal.

 

I would have thought this is still more environmentally friendly than a moped/motorbike. But I wonder if anyone here has any experience of it being cheaper than insuring a petrol two-wheeled vehicle? Or would it be regarded as "specialist" and so therefore more expensive to insure than a moped, even though it is generally slower?

On a more positive note, one can get a 500W or 1kw e-bike and then insure it correctly. That is perfectly legal. slower.

 

It might require SVA which adds to the complication and expense.

Had to look that up! SVA = Single Vehicle Approval. Sounds like that would be v. expensive - has anyone here tried it?

... and would such a vehicle require a registration plate? Not sure where you'd put it!

Had to look that up! SVA = Single Vehicle Approval. Sounds like that would be v. expensive - has anyone here tried it?

 

Sorry. I dislike it when people use abbreviations such as this and don't explain what the letters mean. Here I am doing just that!

Had to look that up! SVA = Single Vehicle Approval. Sounds like that would be v. expensive - has anyone here tried it?

Kit car owners have to do it. I'm unsure of the current state of it, but it used to be relatively cheap (approx £250, iirc), but I think things have changed recently.

Basically, all the inspectors are looking for on a car, m/cycle, trike, etc, are that the various Construction and Use requirements are met, so that the driver, passenger(s) and peds aren't horribly mangled; that the chassis, lights, steering, suspension, brakes, etc are generally in place (and in the right places) and that the vehicle is overall roadworthy.

It's basically just an Engineer's Report.

A UK SVA test centre would be scratching their heads when confronted by a bicycle, but they'd do it, I suppose, and the cost would be low (I hope).

 

In Ireland, if I wanted to do this for a high-powered electric bike, I'd go get an ER myself and the insurance company would be happy with it. Here, before the introduction of a National Car Test, the ER was a commonly done way of making sure your vehicle was up to scratch, so the inscos are well used to it.

I had an SVA test on a 4x4 pick up truck I imported years ago, cant remember the cost but I am sure it is on the VOSA website (The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency:D)

 

Latest Fees

 

they usually test trucks and the like, so not sure how they would react to an electric push bike, but I guess they will be pretty jaded, and have seen everything:p

Single vehicle approval costs £55 for a "low powered moped", i.e. up to 1000 watts but still restricted to 16 mph maximum. Everything you need to knopw about it is on the links below, but I've not known anyone do it yet:

 

SVA scheme details

 

Fees, (scroll down to motorcycles)

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Two points.

 

1) Lemmy's original posting called on us to keep our gobs shut about illegal bikes for fear that the Old Bill would monitor these messages and start sniffing around. Well, of course it's possible that one day some police high-up will reckon there is an easy nick to be had in pursuing illegal and semi-legal ebikes, but for as long as it's left to the copper on the beat, as Flecc has pointed out, most are far too busy to bother.

 

Personally I wouldn't worry about it, or try and encroach on what is essentially a matter of the forum's free speech.

 

2) If there IS a valid issue here, I think it's one of power, not speed. 15-18mph plus leg power is probably fast enough for most of us, for most uses, and manufacturers will no doubt keep on bringing out better motors and batteries so that we can all climb even steeper hills, for longer.

 

Perhaps we should lobby for tighter control on top speeds, but looser on motor and battery outputs.

 

Allen.

I doubt that any cop will ever bother to check the power of an e-bike. The problem is the speed.

 

If bicycles are seen regularly moving up the high street at or near the legal limit, someone will notice. A bicycle moving at 28mph is perceived by everyone as going faster than normally expected and is noticeable.

 

It would be highly dangerous for pedestrians who already don't perceive a bicycle's presence because if its quietness. If it's going at near the legal limit in town too, road accidents will increase and bicycles will no longer be perceived as a nuisance when misused but as potentially lethal.

 

We've already seen what the lycra louts can do to our reputation. Now let's see what they and the kiddie speed merchants together can do with their powered up e-bikes.

 

All I was asking was that we don't encourage these idiots here.

I doubt that any cop will ever bother to check the power of an e-bike. The problem is the speed.

....

All I was asking was that we don't encourage these idiots here.

 

Agreed, wholeheartedly, Lemmy. Although I must say that in my few months here I haven't noticed much of that sort. I know OldTimer sails (rides?) shall we say into the wind, but his bike modifications seem to concentrate on improving power rather than speed.

 

I do agree that lycra louts and ebike speed freaks ruin our reputation as cyclists and human beings!

 

 

Allen.

@flecc - so a e-bike capable of exceeding 16mph would just be tested as a motorcycle, I would expect - £85 for the SVA.

 

@lemmy - I understand that more mistakes are made at higher speeds, but I'd have thought the problem is not so much the speed as the impact upon legal e-bikers of illegal bikes. But if a e-bike capable of 25mph is ridden well, and is licensed and insured, there shouldn't be a problem - should there?

 

My point is that regarding all overpowered e-bikes as "illegal", despite their licensing circumstances, seems rather to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Two points.

 

1) Lemmy's original posting called on us to keep our gobs shut about illegal bikes for fear that the Old Bill would monitor these messages and start sniffing around. Well, of course it's possible that one day some police high-up will reckon there is an easy nick to be had in pursuing illegal and semi-legal ebikes, but for as long as it's left to the copper on the beat, as Flecc has pointed out, most are far too busy to bother.

 

Personally I wouldn't worry about it, or try and encroach on what is essentially a matter of the forum's free speech.

 

2) If there IS a valid issue here, I think it's one of power, not speed. 15-18mph plus leg power is probably fast enough for most of us, for most uses, and manufacturers will no doubt keep on bringing out better motors and batteries so that we can all climb even steeper hills, for longer.

 

Perhaps we should lobby for tighter control on top speeds, but looser on motor and battery outputs.

 

Allen.

 

I agree. As one who has built a more powerfull bike than standard, I did it for the reason Allen states - power.

I rarely take it above 15 - 20mph even though it is capable of higher speeds. I only know this because, like you do, I tested it out on a private road when I first built it. I am however very aware that I do not want to attract too much attention to what is an already unusual looking bike, so I keep my speed down and ride in the most unobtrusive fashion I think appropriate for the circumstances.