I was going to post earlier but this thread has moved on a fair bit! I'm with Harry on this I don't buy the reasoning for the pricing strategy, the reason for using expensive cells is the regen function, but as we know regen on any bike is dubious no matter how you cut it. If you paid the cash and didn't find the function of any benefit then you have paid through the nose for just having the option of using regen. As I said before I'm sure the quality is first class but I would not pay for it. The cost and positioning seems delibrate but seemingly only to justify the function or functions that only a few will think of benefit.

 

Nicely summed up though NRG. I was forgetting about the regen function and agree that it is useful for saving the brakes rather than adding range (on my route anyway). Could always go down the disc route, as I did, which is a lot cheaper than paying for the Bionx.

Hi

 

Good reasoning I believe and an explanation for the positioning of the BionX product in the market. Each time I have spoken with an agent about the BionX kit the "advantages" of regeneration are quickly pointed out. It's clearly part of the marketing strategy.

 

I've also noticed that if I enquire about a particular e bike the agent, if he sells the BionX kit will also describe the kit. Once I mention that price is a barrier then I find the agent will quickly drop the subject. I have the feeling that they, like me, are not too convinced by the price structure.

 

Getting back to ready built with BionX does anyone know as to whether the Kalkhoff B27 and Trek T500 or T80 use the BionX battery?

 

Does the technology allow for an alternative battery?

 

I note that regeneration can be turned on/off and presumably can be disabled? If so, then would this allow for the fitting of an alternative, and hopefully cheaper battery?

 

So. it appears that the Trek and Kalkhoff with BionX power may be back in the frame however like you I 'm really not interested in regeneration.

Regards

vectra. (learning all the time from you guys).

 

I think it could work with an alternative battery, in theory, if you limited the regen (as you could on the panel) - presumably 25% would be safe. Not sure it could be locked down though and so open to the possibility of frying a £500 battery. Anyway the beauty of the Bionx is it is such a nice kit - the battery positioning being very important in that. Replacing the battery with an Ezee would turn it back into a kit for tinkerers and so not for me. Not sure you could even add a battery because of the canbus system they use. I don't think you could replace the cells very easily - I think the latest batteries have some sort of memory function within the bms to provide some more info for example to tell how many cycles the cells have done.

Edited February 19, 201115 yr by HarryB

Hi

 

Good reasoning I believe and an explanation for the positioning of the BionX product in the market.

 

Getting back to ready built with BionX does anyone know as to whether the Kalkhoff B27 and Trek T500 or T80 use the BionX battery?

 

Does the technology allow for an alternative battery?

 

I note that regeneration can be turned on/off and presumably can be disabled? If so, then would this allow for the fitting of an alternative, and hopefully cheaper battery?

 

A high price strategy for supposed benefits is nothing new of course, Mercedes and BMW have been doing it for years. It's accepted in marketing that image carries a premium. Alluding to your online name, Vauxhall's current Insignia is priced from about £18,000 to £32,000, but you can bet there's not anything like £14.000 worth of extra content in that top model.

 

The BionX batteries are fitted to all the bikes using their motor, since the quality is needed to handle the regen peaks. To get the battery price down for those manufacturer models they are fitting smaller batteries though, not usually the very expensive standard 10 Ah in-frame one.

 

Regen has to switched on into one of four settings, so using it is always a user choice. There is an alternative battery for those who do not want to use regen, or use strictly only the lower two regen settings, and I posted it earlier in the thread on this link.

.

There is an alternative battery for those who do not want to use regen, or use strictly only the lower two regen settings, and I posted it earlier in the thread on this link.

.

 

As I say in post above I don't know how you could integrate a different battery into the Bionx system. A bit like printers and printer cartridges, where they have a chip in them so you have to buy their products.

 

Found some explanation of the canbus system here:

 

BionX I2C upgraded to CanBus, explanation

Edited February 19, 201115 yr by HarryB

The best thing about regen to my mind, having done a few thousand miles on a Bionx bike, is the improvement to stopping distances which, on one occasion, I think saved me from T-boning a car that nipped out and then stopped in front of me. It also helps in icy conditions.

 

Cheers

Nick

 

Found some explanation of the canbus system here:

 

BionX I2C upgraded to CanBus, explanation

 

Thanks Harry, seems to rule out alternatives at the moment for the post 2008/9 machines then.

 

With a number of bike makers adopting BionX now, especially in Germany like Derby-Kalkhoff and Riese & Muller, there may be alternative lower priced replacement batteries appearing. It's happened from Germany for the Panasonic system with the new BMZ made batteries for example, so possible.

.

Does the regenerative braking force fall away with speed? I'm thinking that it would be quite effective at scrubbing off higher speeds, but less so as speed falls below 10 mph ish.

 

Nonetheless, this is an interesting thread and quite enlightening with regard to the BionX system. That battery price is breathtakingly expensive. But as some contributors have already mentioned, as price increases, the number of people interested in the system falls away.

 

My sister-in-law who lives in St Johns, Newfoundland bought a Trek bike fitted with a 350 Watt motor last summer. It's a Bionx PL350 system with a 37 volt 10Ah battery. She paid just under $2000 Ca (£1350) for the whole lot, bike and system ready built. I don't think that it has regenerative braking though, so that may make it a bit cheaper. She seems delighted with it though and it's very hilly around St Johns.

I'd say the regen helps with braking all the way to a stop - it will bring me to a stop on any long steep hills around here without touching the brakes themselves - not very effectively on its own, mind you.

 

If I'm out on a particularly long or battery sapping ride I'll use regen down hills as I've never noticed more than the smallest of benefits from going as fast as possible downhill to minimise the effort up the other side. I doubt it adds more than a hundred yards or so to the distance I can do on a ride, but I have no idea - maybe it's more, maybe it's less. I did once post a link to a guy in a mountainous area who used it to good effect to increase the distances he could cycle, but he was using a velo I think.

My sister-in-law who lives in St Johns, Newfoundland bought a Trek bike fitted with a 350 Watt motor last summer. It's a Bionx PL350 system with a 37 volt 10Ah battery. She paid just under $2000 Ca (£1350) for the whole lot, bike and system ready built. I don't think that it has regenerative braking though, so that may make it a bit cheaper. She seems delighted with it though and it's very hilly around St Johns.

 

I used to live and work in Cornwall Ave, St Johns, I can certainly vouch for the hills and the snow, a Bionx would be great in the summer when it is a beautiful place. Went to work one morning and by midday my car was buried in the car park, had to borrow my bosses GMC Jimmy to collect my kids from school. We don't know what snow is here.

If you get goods shipped from Alberta to Newfie for example, you don't have to pay any GST.

 

J:) hn

Thanks Harry, seems to rule out alternatives at the moment for the post 2008/9 machines then.

 

With a number of bike makers adopting BionX now, especially in Germany like Derby-Kalkhoff and Riese & Muller, there may be alternative lower priced replacement batteries appearing. It's happened from Germany for the Panasonic system with the new BMZ made batteries for example, so possible.

.

 

Thank you. The Wiki explanation is very useful.

 

HOWEVER. Has anyone else noticed the price of the kit at NYCewheels. £748.00 for the PL 250. The PL 250 is actually shown at a lower price than the PL 250 Light which is priced at £934.00. (I'm assuming $1.60 to £1.00).

 

I've already spoken with NYCewheels and unfortunately they don't ship to the U.K. and understandably as there are warranty/suppport implications for both buyer and seller. At those prices in UK terms I would be very interested in the PL 250.

 

So, unless NYCewheels are selling at a loss or break even or are being subsidised by the supplier there is room for a price drop it seems? It could be, of course, that the distributor and manufacturer have realised that the previous U.S.A prices were just not enabling a market?

Regards

vectra

 

Regards

vectra

US prices are very often much lower for a variety of goods. No really satisfactory explanation is ever offered for this, other than the rather weak "size of the market" one.

 

I remember in the earlier days of CDs when they commonly cost around £14 here and about half that in the USA.

 

The other discrepancy can be warranties. I remember at one time Sony having the usual one year for the UK on all items but from two to five years depending on item in the USA.

 

The phenomenon generally known as Rip Off Britain.

.

I've already spoken with NYCewheels and unfortunately they don't ship to the U.K. and understandably as there are warranty/suppport implications for both buyer and seller. At those prices in UK terms I would be very interested in the PL 250.

Regards vectra

 

The PL-350 kit I owned was supplied to the original purchaser in the UK by NYCE Wheels, the original receipt was for $2092:eek: . My guess is that now there is a UK distributor, they are not allowed to sell here.

 

J:) hn

Here is a Bionx hack thread on endless sphere.

Here is a Bionx hack thread on endless sphere.

 

Woops. Link here: Endless-sphere.com • View topic - BionX hack: non-proprietary battery!

Bionx kits built after May 2009 use a different battery with can-bus so this hack would not work. Maybe there is a more up to date thread?

Bionx kits built after May 2009 use a different battery with can-bus so this hack would not work. Maybe there is a more up to date thread?

 

True. But really was showing it could be hacked.

At the risk of labouring a point there is a big difference between replacing the battery on a pre Can-bus system and post Can-bus. You could only replace the cells using the original BMS but how it all interacts with the other bits of the system is anyones guess. Hopefully it might work but not something for your average tinkerer.

 

Controller area network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To clarify my point about 30 months: I did not notice any drop in battery performance in those first 30 months. The battery is still very useable now, at about 40 months I think it is, but does not last as long.

To clarify my point about 30 months: I did not notice any drop in battery performance in those first 30 months. The battery is still very useable now, at about 40 months I think it is, but does not last as long.

 

Nick: how many miles?

At the risk of labouring a point there is a big difference between replacing the battery on a pre Can-bus system and post Can-bus. You could only replace the cells using the original BMS but how it all interacts with the other bits of the system is anyones guess. Hopefully it might work but not something for your average tinkerer.

 

Controller area network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

HarryB. I see your point now. Cheers.

5-6000 miles I think. I managed to reset the mileage once without beig 100% sure what it was before :o

 

Mainly full assist for that time.

5-6000 miles I think. I managed to reset the mileage once without beig 100% sure what it was before :o

 

Mainly full assist for that time.

 

geez - that's nearing on 10,000K in my language! well done