Flecc, please don't get the hump, all I was doing was making it clear that your very clear and all-embracing statement that:

all hub motor bikes are a pain to pedal without power

(not just those with gears etc) seemed a bit wide of the mark.

 

I certainly wasn't being at all subjective about describing the case for the gear-less motors, either. In fact I made the clear objective point that this type of motor was little different mechanically from a normal wheel hub.

 

I think we are actually all in basic agreement here. Some hub motors can add a considerable amount of drag when not powered, just as some bottom bracket drive motors can. There is no intrinsic difference resulting from the layout, just one that results from the implementation of the engineering solution.

 

Amongst the low drag options are the Panasonic unit, the gear-less hub motors, like the Crystalyte and Goldenmotor, and perhaps one or two of the geared hub motors where there is a free wheel fitted in the best location, like the TongXin/Nano unit perhaps.

 

Amongst the high drag options are geared hub motors where there is no free wheel fitted, or where one is fitted in a poor location, plus some of the bottom bracket motors that similarly involve the rotation of gears etc when being pedalled.

 

For someone not familiar with the various options and looking to be able to make an informed choice as to whether or not to buy a ready made bike, or a kit (the whole point of this thread) it is important, I believe, that we all make the effort to be clear that any configuration can be good or bad in this respect.

 

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy. I refer to hub motors in that fashion, meaning orbitally geared hub motors since they are the overwhelming majority, in just the same way as we say car, and not petrol car. Obviously it's the few exceptions that get the clarification, as in electric car and direct drive hub motor.

 

I was speaking in the context of the post and answer that was being commented on, so wouldn't have felt clarification necessary anyway, and as you say, in that context we don't have a disagreement.

 

I wasn't getting the hump over the technicalities though, more the combative nature of postings that this forum seem be turning more to now. On a number of occasions recently after posting a perfectly correct and reasonable answer, I've had to suffer an unnecessary challenge and the dispute that follows, and I don't come in here for that.

 

I come in to try to help people with my knowledge and experience, and sometimes to give an opinion, and if someone wants to post their opposite experience without reference to or impugning my observation, that's fine, and also desirable. You can see a good example of this on the the "I Can Hardly Believe It" thread where several of us have a differing experience from Doug at Wisper, New Milton and have posted accordingly without comment on Doug's entry.

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Flecc, I think the issue is one mainly of the format of a discussion such as this, without the body language cues that reveal the degree of specificity that the writer intends.

 

I'm a scientist, so do tend to view rather absolute statements as being absolute in their intent, unless they are qualified in some way by the author, hence my taking exception to the damning of "all hub motors", when only a sub-set of this group was the intended target. If I can read your posts as being so absolute, even though this was clearly not your intention, based on your later posts, then I am sure others may well do likewise.

 

For some of us, a hub motor is either the only practical option, or may be the best option for our requirement. If I had come on here without having some done some research beforehand and asked for advice, knowing that my only option is to fit a hub motor of some type, due to the configuration of my bike, then I would have most probably read your comment apparently condemning all hub motors as being hard to pedal and gone back to driving my car.

 

The debate here has at least brought the facts out clearly and unequivocally, so that we can hope that there is enough for someone reading this to make a decision based on a reasonably accurate dataset.

 

Jeremy

I understand your point Jeremy, and as an engineer, I also like precision.

 

But kits aren't my thing, or for the great majority of e-bike buyers for that matter, and with only one direct drive complete bike with limited availability, I tend to ignore the option in posting on e-bikes.

 

I've recently had a similar difference of opinion with another member who's a journalist, him feeling that what I post on a subject needs simplification and brevity for clarity, effectively the opposite of your position.

 

There's value in what you both say, but clearly I can't please you both, so I've no doubt I'll be posting in my usual manner in future without indulging in written contortions to cover all the possible interpretations on what I'm posting, or leaving out what I think should be included.

 

After all, it is my posting.

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Well I'm a scientist, who used to be married to a journalist.

You wouldn't believe the arguments we could have, even when we were on the same side.

 

Nick

- - - - - -

 

I can certainly believe that Nick. Difficult to see how those positions could be reconciled, so many journalists seeing an understanding of science as looking up a page in Wikipedia.

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Edited January 11, 200818 yr by flecc

Hi flecc,

 

It wasn't quite that bad. She's not a tabloid journalist, but writes on a specialist subject.

Pleased to hear that Nick. I suppose I can safely assume that her specialist subject wasn't partnerships.

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