Pedelec vs Throttle

 

Hi Lordy Lordy

 

In case this wasn't clear, with a throttle it is basically just like what you would imagine a motor bike to have. In otherwords the more you twist the throttle handle fitted to your bike, the more power is sent to the motor. A pedelec has some sort of sensor that cleverly senses when you apply pressure to the pedals, to also send power to the electric motor. I'm afraid I am not technical, so that is far as I get in terms of how it actually works.

 

I know there has been some favourable discussion, in another thread, about a control on (one of?) the Forza Forte (?) models by 50 Cycles which allows you to set a control to vary the amount of assistance you are given. (I must admit, the control looked particularly easy to vandalise to me, but 50 Cycles said they were refining the design to make it less vulnerable). I found there was a very very slight delay between applying pressure and the motor kicking in, but I got used to that very quickly.

 

As flecc says with the Forza/Forte (?) you would have the option to switch between throttle and pedelec modes

I agree Bikerbob, but the main use I have for my bike is to get me out of my car more often so that I can cycle to/from work. I potentially have an idyllic - but challenging - ride across Wimbledon Common and then Richmond Park (if you know this area in London). Fine in the mornings, but the park closes at dusk in the winter, so I'd have a completely different ride back on the roads.

Take your point though about pricing and delivery, but is there a particular time of year when the bike manufacturers announce/release their new models? (I bought a camera last year that was superseded about 2 weeks later, slicing an immediate 30% off the value of mine!)

Cheers!

Hi Simon. I wouldn't wait for Spring, given how variable our seasons are anyway, unless you want to avoid riding in the dark as much as possible. If you do choose to ride in the winter, best budget for some additional lighting for added safety. The standard lights are adequate for good responsible car drivers, but there are plenty of car drivers who fall well short of that standard. The F series bikes are a very recent introduction so won't be getting replaced/superceded for a long time. There have been the usual initial revisions but they appear to be settled now as I described them.

 

At some future date it's almost inevitable that we'll have to comply with the European law and have pedelec power only, since that should already be in force and has only been avoided due to a civil service mistake at the time of implementation. The change will probably be sooner rather than later. Throttles are still permitted, but no power is allowed without pedalling at the same time under the Europe wide law.

 

New model introductions do tend to be in early spring as you'd expect, but I've seen no discounting at varying times, the bike prices tending to remain consistent throughout the year. The only exception is the occasional small promotional reduction to shift some stock, 5% to 10% occasionally.

.

On our Italian forum we have discovered a quite good kit on ebay: it is the "nine continent" hub motor sold by a German seller, which is exactly the same motor sold by Velectris in France with the name "phantom" (two o three times the price!). Another seller from Hungary sells the bigger one, called "superphantom" in France.

 

Compared to a good electric bicycle those kits (provided whitout batteries and front hub only) have of course all the disavantages that Flecc says, but at the moment they are still very cheap and our experiences are not disappointing. May be an useful information for someone having already a good bicycle looking for a first 'electric experience' with a little budget .

 

How about this one here: Conversion Kit,Electric Bicycle,Electric Bike,Hubmotor - eBay Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 12-Oct-07 02:06:09 BST). It looks like a nano and they can fit it to 20 inch wheels upwards. As the quoted overall weight of 10kgs includes everything, all the options and possibly also the weight of the rim and spokes, the motor itself may be the same light weight as the nano.

How about this one here: Conversion Kit,Electric Bicycle,Electric Bike,Hubmotor - eBay Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 12-Oct-07 02:06:09 BST). It looks like a nano and they can fit it to 20 inch wheels upwards. As the quoted overall weight of 10kgs includes everything, all the options and possibly also the weight of the rim and spokes, the motor itself may be the same light weight as the nano.

 

This 180 watt motor is too low powered for Simon's need though. It wouldn't give the help he's looking for on the hills in question and will have barely over half the gross power of the Forza he's considering.

.

We had some experiences with a foldable bike sold last year by the same supplier with the same motor, I think. Exept from some battery troubles, it proved to be not so bad and very good value for money, but only thanks to the 20" wheel size. On a bigger bike - tested on the French forum by more than one user - this motor was too underpowered, as Flecc says. As a kit, the 'nine continent' one seems to be far more interesting.

Edited October 4, 200718 yr by Leonardo

Ciao

On our Italian forum we have discovered a quite good kit on ebay: it is the "nine continent" hub motor

Thanks for the links Leonardo an interesting & quite cheap electric bike kit!

 

A friend wants a cheap DIY electric bike kit, so this might do!

 

I'll tell him to make a NiMH battery from cheap AA cells too, so the whole kit should come in at around £200!

 

I understand that the "9 continents" motor is brushless, gearless (direct drive) and weighs about 5.4kg? Quite heavy? (though still much lighter than crystalyte 4xx motors!) Do you think that is the weight of motor only, or the total weight of motor spoked into the rim? I couldn't find this information.

 

It would also appear to give about 17.5mph top speed under load from a 36V battery (when derestricted), and can be run at higher voltage, up to say 48V, if more speed is required "offroad"? Should be reasonably powerful too, with a 15A controller limit gives peak power near 600W @ 36V, 800W @ 48V? :-)

 

Quite a nice find though, if they deliver to the UK :-). Its giving me ideas to convert my MTB to a dirt ebike though I should know better after what flecc has said, and buy a custom-made electric bike... I'll just help out my pal & see how his DIY goes...;-)

 

Stuart.

Edited October 21, 200718 yr by coops

Hi Stuart, I think that I should confirm what you say but I’ve forwarded your questions to the friend of the Italian forum who knows better this kit, so if there is something to correct I’ll let you now.

 

As far as I know the 5.4 kg is the weight of the motor, it is easy to derestrict, the controller can be easily switched from 16 to 20A, and it can be run at 48V.

 

After we started to try it in Italy there has been a bit of discussion on the French forum as well, about the “identity problem” with the Velectris and about its fitting, working and riding experience.

Edited October 21, 200718 yr by Leonardo

Thanks for the information Leonardo and I much appreciate your efforts on jobike.it on my behalf I'll drop in the international forum there to say hello shortly .

 

Thanks also for the extra links . You may be aware of this, but I noticed a member of the endless-sphere forum has a different 9-continents motor, seems 1 or 2kg lighter? He says elsewhere it is like motor GL2 listed here (looks like velectris super phantom?!) except smaller diameter and 3kg lighter, like a mini-phantom perhaps? He also describes changes to his bike & motor setup.

 

stuart.

Thanks for the links Stuart, I didn't see the one on Endless-Sphere. It appears me very similar to the "phantom" that we know. Could it be then 3 kg. the motor + 2.4 the rim?! I don't know really. Anyway here is the web page of nine-continent, with all its hub motors. The bigger one on the australian site looks like the super-phantom: till some time ago it was sold on ebay at a much cheaper price by an hungarian seller.

 

(International circulation of information is a must! :D )

Grazie Elle

(International circulation of information is a must! )

Definitely so! bene!

 

I am curious about the 9-continents motor of Mark on endless-sphere: I think it is different from the "phantom" one, maybe smaller & seems much lighter - on page 2 of that endless-sphere thread Mark says:

 

Here are some pics of my motor - it looks VERY SIMILAR to the pics of the GL2 motor on Brett's Island Earth website. Even has the little bamboo toothpicks holding the wires. About the only design difference is it has the yellow "pcb" around the windings. Everything else is the same, from the black axel with shiny bearing area, to the way the wires are glued in with white goop.

 

Except it's about 80mm smaller than the GL2, and 3kgs lighter. I'm happy with the torque of this motor, so the GL2 must have heaps.

 

So any thoughts on whether it will take 48v? The winding wire looks to be about 0.6-0.8mm diameter.

 

So if GL2 = superphantom, then his motor is 80mm less diameter and 3kg lighter!! Nice :-).

 

stuart.

Yes it will, I've got one. Hi Flecc

 

Griz

Hi Griz

 

(Heavily edited post!...)

 

That kit looks interesting too: some confusion here I think - I don't think the motor listed there is the nano/tongxin - its not geared for one thing, and looks to be heavier (you "salvaged" yours from your Upland 26, didn't you - I thought you meant you'd bought it from that site!). Are you running your nano at about 40V with your Lidl AA cell NiMH battery and a 15A controller?! That would pep it up a bit! 570W peak power, hotrod ebikes eh? How fast does that go then?

 

Its very odd that there's no information at all about top speed of the motor in that link in any given wheelsize its available in from 20-28" to be decided after purchase... how does that work??? are we to assume that all are road legal i.e. in 28" rim top speed is less than 25km/h or whatever?

 

No FAQ to that effect, either?! Maybe no-ones even asking them any Q's!

 

Stuart.

Edited October 21, 200718 yr by coops

Although it says (taken from babelfish translation) on this page:

ENGINE PERFORMANCE to 250W (maximum performance to 500W)

 

(in the context of the auction completion you can select electronics (180W continuous duty) or 36V electronics (270W continuous duty) between 24V!)

 

which I take to mean a 36V 500W peak version is available, from your remarks Leonardo I take it that the motor/controller disappoints by either high rpm or low torque in a larger wheel than 20"? In that respect I agree the nine-continents motor looks useful for a 26" wheel, say, with good torque and power possibilities, well balanced with the wheel's rpm, for both road-legal and off-road use .

 

stuart.

Edited October 21, 200718 yr by coops

Yes it will, I've got one. Hi Flecc

 

Griz

 

Hi Griz. I'm keeping out of this one, these kits not my scene.

.

Very sensible I think flecc, but... help! I'm being drawn to the dark side! I'm going to try to talk my friend out of getting a kit, maybe buy 2nd hand instead?

 

stuart.

I feel quite embarrassed :o . I don’t want to spoil your forum – where I’ve learned so much - with our bad habits . As already said, the Italian scene is rather different from the English one: we don’t have the good-quality mid-price bikes that you have. We have a few high level bicycles (like Flyer), the new Giant and a couple of reliable “national” brands, each one with its defects, and very little more exept a lot of chinese trash that I guess you have as well. That’s the reason why there is so much interest for the kits by us. Being able to choose, I think that a complete bicycle is better too. Personally I have my old Lafree and a Flyer T8 for my wife and I’ve never fitted a kit: if I'll do it, it will be the English Nano-motor (just bought a Brompton ! ).

 

But to answer to your questions Stuart. My friend confirms what we said. He doesn’t know the exact weight because he didn’t weighed it before mounting, but he says that it seems him to be the same one of Mark of Endless-Sphere, also looking at the inside.

I think that the Nine-continents is quite different from the kit proposed from Kranawetter, which appears me very similar to the one installed by CH Whites on their electric Dahon. What I know of this latter motor is only that on the folding with 20" wheels bought by some members of the Italian forum it was satisfactory, but on the greater models it had been found a bit weak by some members of the French forum (always at 24V). The Nine-continents instead turns out quite satisfactory on the larger wheels.

Edited October 21, 200718 yr by Leonardo

Thanks Leonardo, e non ci è problema you are always most welcome here .

 

The kit from Kranawetter appears then to be more "spin" than "push" in larger wheels, lacking power/torque for its wheelspin speed: the 9-continents looks well-balanced in that respect (it seems not easy to find a good motor kit, eh?).

 

The weights of the motors is far from clear to me, but broadly it seems that the velectris superphantom type motor/kit (minus battery) is about 6-7kg, so comparable/less than crystalyte 4xx motors, and the phantom type kit is lighter at around 5kg (maybe the 5.4kg is the weight of the whole kit, without battery?) - all sounds rather too heavy for me! The size difference given by velectris is 80mm, the same as Mark said, so that agrees. :-)

 

Just to add, maybe its a coincidence but the controller box in the 9-continents kit looks rather similar to a new controller being tested for the latest edition of the English/US puma motors - large image giving dimensions on that page, more images here :-).

 

You know, its funny that here we often see the same bikes sold by different companies, while for you its spotting the same components/kits sold by different people!

 

One more thing, on 9-continents wheel hub motor page Mark's motor looks like the JZ-RH154, the phantom type JZ-FH154 and the superphantom appears to be JZ-RH205... so I wonder if there is a difference (more than cosmetic) between "FH" and "RH" ?!

 

EDIT: 'R' for 'Rear motor' & 'F' for 'Front motor'...! now I'm embarassed... :o So both appear to be the same '154' model motors, just with fittings for front or rear.

 

also the GL1 on the Australian kit site looks like model JZBD, except that must be the brushed motor ('B1' lower on that page) so although the casing looks different I think the GL1's dimensions (8cm narrower than GL2) correspond with the phantom/'JZ-RH154' model? In which case either they've made it lighter since, or some facts are wrong i.e. weight may be more like 5kg not 3kg... (and again GL2 looks to be the JZ-RH205/superphantom "pancake" motor).

 

Stuart.

Edited October 22, 200718 yr by coops

Yes Simon, a lifelong engineer in many disciplines.

 

Those hills aren't too bad and will be easy with the Forza.

 

Edge Hill will be very easy.

 

Just the middle steep bit on The Downs will be not quite so easy, but as that's so short this might be your best for sheer ease since the Forza would fly over it on the run.

 

The dogleg middle section on Arterbury Road eases the climb quite a bit, and it's only the last stretch at the top that will make the Forza work at all.

 

Certainly no problems though.

.

 

Hi Flecc

 

I saw your review on the Kalkhoff Agattu. Would you rate it over the Forza, based on the research and info you so kindly did for me a few monthsw ago.

 

Many thanks,

 

Lordy!

They are very different bikes, as different as chalk and cheese as the saying goes.

 

Although the Forza has a pedelec mode, it remains very much a throttle controlled bike and very powerful. In most areas one could ride nearly all the time without pedalling, the motor of around 680 watts peak power only needing assistance on the steeper hills. As such, it's an underpowered motorcycle with a motor that needs a bit of help at times.

 

The Panasonic powered bikes are the opposite, very much a bicycle still, though rather heavier than bikes normally are. To help the cyclist when necessary, there's some motor power available in 3 levels, 50% of the rider power added (Eco), 100% of the rider power added (Standard), and 135% of the rider power added (High power mode). Therefore each amount is always proportional to the rider's ability. The most powerful rider can get the most assistance, the weakest rider the least. This might seem contrary to what's needed, but it emphasizes that the cycling experience always relates to the rider in the saddle.

 

For example, put in some more effort to climb a hill a bit faster, and the motor will track that extra and keep it's proportion consistent, therefore feeling natural to that person. If the cyclist is a fit male in his prime years, the 200 watts he can maintain on a long hill would be matched by another 200 watts from the motor in standard mode.

 

In contrast, just opening a throttle on the Forza to get more power would add up to 680 watts, completely disproportionate to the rider input, and relegating the cycling part to a minor status. Of course the throttle could be held at a lower level to make it proportional, but that's not very easy to do consistently and requires constant self discipline.

 

So it's a matter of priorities. Is the important thing the easiest possible journey (Forza), or is it to cycle but get a bit of help with the tough stuff (Kalkhoff).

 

Both bikes will manage just about anything, but the Kalkhoff will fare better, albeit slower, on the very steepest hills, while the Forza will outpace the Kalkhoff with ease on the flat and on gentle slopes.

 

And as ever, there's nothing to beat trying out both if at all possible, and it's worth the inconvenience and cost of a journey to do that.

.

Edited January 10, 200818 yr by flecc

Thanks Flecc - excellent and detailed response, as always!!

 

Lordy

....while the Forza will outpace the Kalkhoff with ease on the flat and on gentle slopes.

 

.

 

Just to clarify a point are you comparing a derestricted Forza with the Kalkoff? From memory, in your review you talked about the Agattu being able to run up to about 17mph but I know my restricted Torq was a struggle to peddle much above 16mph. It might of course only be the foolish than buy a Forza and keep it restricted but I would want to try and stay legal (within reason).

Even a restricted one will tend to give better averages Hal, simply because the power enables it to maintain it at 15 mph much of the time. You'll notice that on my Kalkhoff test, I was reporting avarages of around 12.5 mph when not stopping for special tests etc, but the powerful eZee models can average about 15 mph when restricted, because they do it on the flat, up moderate slopes and into headwinds while exceeding it downhill. The more hilly the area, the more true that is.

 

In completely flat conditions, and in still air, the eZeebike wouldn't have that advantage of course, evening things out, since both could perform as well if the Kalkhoff rider was moderately fit.

.

Question

 

I presume if range is added to the account the Kalkhoff will easily better the eZee Forte?

 

Derrick - Llanberis

Question

 

I presume if range is added to the account the Kalkhoff will easily better the eZee Forte?

 

Derrick - Llanberis