I don't know of any specific reason, but as long ago as 60 years our English customers disliked them.

 

They are more suited to leisurely utility riding like that more common on the Continent, and the traditional ones were never very effective. Originally based on brake drums, shoes and pads, car style, they often got oil soaked rendering them useless.

 

Even the modern Shimano roller and ramp incarnation is much weaker than any rim or disc brake.

 

A friend of mine has the Shimano roller & ramp brakes on his Giant Escape R8. Granted, they don't have the power or feel of a decent set of rim brakes, but they aren't too bad. I think incorporating them into a pedal type brake is a good idea and I'd like to see the principle retained on the UK model. A low maintenance brake would compliment the low maintenance Alfine gears and hopefully low maintenance drive unit very well.

But most in the UK would dislike not being able to back pedal to get cranks into a suitable position for take of from lights etc, a major disadvantage of back pedal brakes. I sense that perhaps those asking for them here may never have ridden bikes with a back pedal brake and aren't aware of that.

 

I can't see 50cycles wanting to double up stock on the very large Kalkhoff range to give the ex-stock choice, but they have said they'll get back pedal brake versions to order. Just make sure you really will like it if you've never tried them before, I hate them.

But most in the UK would dislike not being able to back pedal to get cranks into a suitable position for take of from lights etc, a major disadvantage of back pedal brakes. I sense that perhaps those asking for them here may never have ridden bikes with a back pedal brake and aren't aware of that.

 

I can't see 50cycles wanting to double up stock on the very large Kalkhoff range to give the ex-stock choice, but they have said they'll get back pedal brake versions to order. Just make sure you really will like it if you've never tried them before, I hate them.

 

Anybody who has become used to cycling without a coaster brake is likely to find it a disconcerting when they idly back pedal when freewheeling to find themselves coming to a rapid halt. Happened to me cycling around Groningen and Cologne, on hire bikes, over and over again. It's great for the German market, Kalkhoff sold 5000 Impulse bikes with coaster brakes on one day last Spring, after the launch demo... we were pleased to find they're producing a freewheel version.

Maybe, but there must be something beneficial to the braking system if it is so widely used in other countries. We in the UK seem to in the minority, probably due to a touch of, "we've always done it this way" prevailing.

I had them, one on a cyclemaster, the other on an NSU Quickly.

They were necessary because the left hand handlebar lever was the clutch.

Neither was very efficient in braking terms. On an electric or non powered bike they seem to be an expensive, difficult to repair unneeded addition.

probably due to a touch of, "we've always done it this way" prevailing

 

Not in my case. They were not uncommon years ago but they had poor stopping power and gave little confidence. Given that rim and disk brakes work so well, it seems pointless to introduce a third type unless it shows some overwhelming advantage.

 

Presumably anyone who wanted them could retrofit.

Maybe, but there must be something beneficial to the braking system if it is so widely used in other countries. We in the UK seem to in the minority, probably due to a touch of, "we've always done it this way" prevailing.

 

Not that widely used, mainly the Netherlands and to some extent Germany and Denmark. All I can say is try a back pedal brake bike, there are a few around from such as the Dutch Bike Company. They really are the worst performing of all bike brakes, mainly suited to slow cycling.

 

The modern Shimano incarnation, which is usually lever controlled and not back pedal, isn't smoothly progressive. On first application it reacts slowly as the rollers gather up the ramps, then comes in more fiercely. This is very disconcerting on an emergency stop, first little response on hard application then fiercely cutting in suddenly and potentially locking the wheel, not at all what is needed. Again, they are usually only fitted on utility bikes of the sort used for leisurely riding.

Would somebody please explain to me what the sudden ramp down is on the Bosch system? I'm still waiting to experience it. I think there are a few reports of this, maybe I should ride around more in 3 Speed or do a back-to-back comparo with a Panasonic?

It's just full power to 15 mph Tim, then it cuts out almost immediately. It's not alone in this, many e-bike systems do the same.

 

The Panasonic system phases down power so smoothly as it approaches 15 mph that the cutting in and out at around 15 mph is impossible to feel when it happens, the transition is silky smooth. The experience of 100 years of them making bikes and over 12 years of making e-bikes shows. In fairness, this is the first venture by Bosch into anything to do with cycling.

.

Edited October 11, 201114 yr by flecc

Would somebody please explain to me what the sudden ramp down is on the Bosch system? I'm still waiting to experience it. I think there are a few reports of this, maybe I should ride around more in 3 Speed or do a back-to-back comparo with a Panasonic?

 

Probably worth recognising Tim that all this criticism is from people that have probably not even bothered riding a Bosch powered bike, and have not got a clue as to how nice a system it is.....

 

I feel confident that you would still prefer the Bosch on a side by side evaluation as most European forum opinion backs this up...

It's just full power to 15 mph Tim, then it cuts out almost immediately. It's not alone in this, many e-bike systems do the same.

 

The Panasonic system phases down power so smoothly as it approaches 15 mph that the cutting in and out at around 15 mph is impossible to feel when it happens, the transition is silky smooth. The experience of 100 years of them making bikes and over 12 years of making e-bikes shows. In fairness, this is the first venture by Bosch into anything to do with cycling.

Thanks for the explanation Flecc

 

 

Probably worth recognising Tim that all this criticism is from people that have probably not even bothered riding a Bosch powered bike, and have not got a clue as to how nice a system it is.....

 

I feel confident that you would still prefer the Bosch on a side by side evaluation as most European forum opinion backs this up...

 

I don't want to get into a debate about it and I have no intention of changing my Haibike for something else (there isn't anything out there like it at this price range anyway). But I am curious about the ramp-down that is talked about as I hardly notice anything. There is a cut-off point when in the highest speeds settings, but I wouldn't say it is anything worth fussing about, however it sounds as if the Panasonic system is so smooth that Bosch have a little bit of work to do in refining the ramp-down. I shall try to observe it this evening on a ride out.

 

Bosch have a little bit of work to do in refining the ramp-down.

 

They may not even bother, they apparently have a healthy market for the system as it is and there are many other e-bikes with often very abrupt cutoffs in any power mode.

 

Some prefer the more obvious nature of the power appearance rather than the more subtle Panasonic approach, so there's a lot to be said for the choice to be there for consumers.

I haven't noticed sharp power-down. All crank drives seem to me 'agricultural' compared to Koga or Sparta hub drives. But I think Panasonic have perhaps the worst power-up I've come across. Way back when we were Flyer dealers we'd cringe when madame placed a foot on a pedal whilst adjusting her skirts... Whoosh/Yelp/and sometimes Bang! would follow as she was unexpectedly thrust forward. Scary.

 

FYI Bosch, Koga & Sparta motors power down at 17.2 mph (not 15 mph)

 

James

Edited October 11, 201114 yr by james@justebikes.co.uk

 

But I think Panasonic have perhaps the worst power-up I've come across. Way back when we were Flyer dealers we'd cringe when madame placed a foot on a pedal whilst adjusting her skirts... Whoosh/Yelp/and sometimes Bang! would follow as she was unexpectedly thrust forward.

 

One of the system's best features to many of us James, ideal for hill starts. Once aware of it there's no problem.

I think Panasonic have perhaps the worst power-up I've come across. Way back when we were Flyer dealers we'd cringe when madame placed a foot on a pedal whilst adjusting her skirts... Whoosh/Yelp/and sometimes Bang! would follow as she was unexpectedly thrust forward.

 

James

 

I have heard this characteristic mentioned by other people too but, I have to say that it does not exist on my 2008 Panasonic driven bike. It simply does not happen, so maybe they have revised the software.

But I think Panasonic have perhaps the worst power-up I've come across.

James

 

You have me at a loss I'm afraid James. What gear and power level are you talking about for the "scary" take-off you describe?

 

Your description is alien to me and I haven't actually heard such a complaint from other Panasonic system owners. On my early model, I normally start in 4th gear, (of 8) using low power or no power at all and neither the machine nor me has any problem. If I use high power in the same circumstance, it does move the bike off very smartly but in no way could I call the power-up scary.

 

As for your "agricultural" remark, I really do differ most strongly. Every hub-driven bike I've ridden so far seems exactly like that whereas I would describe the Panasonic crank-drive as an elegant piece of engineering in comparison.

 

Do you perhaps sell a model of ebike powered by something other than a Panasonic motor?

 

Regards,

Indalo

A 'vested interest' remark methinks probably like the 'sharp cutoff' remarks from the competition.

 

 

 

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If you're expecting it (eg experienced) it wont come as a surprise. My point is that folk trying one for the first time are often unnerved by an e-bike taking off unexpectedly.

In defence of James, even a fit older teenager and experienced cyclist was taken aback by the sudden kick off response to a firm pedal thrust when first trying one, and that was the old lower power earlier unit.

 

All the Panasonic units have maximum power available from a standstill, depending on the force applied to a pedal, but it can only surprise the first time of trying one. The mistake then is applying the same hard first thrust that's used on normal bikes for take-off and expecting the same sluggish response.

If you're expecting it (eg experienced) it wont come as a surprise. My point is that folk trying one for the first time are often unnerved by an e-bike taking off unexpectedly.

 

 

It's not a case of expecting it James, they simply don't, "take off" in the way that you are suggesting. Maybe the Flyers that you used to sell had this characteristic, but the Panasonic powered bikes that I have tried and the one that I own have no hint of this power surge. Everything is very natural, quiet and smooth to the extent that you could be fooled into thinking that the motor isn't working. That is until you switch off the power and it then becomes apparent that you have indeed been receiving a helping hand.

 

I'm not one of these precious types who will defend the brand of bike which they happen to own, but the way in which you describe the power delivery from the Panasonic unit is not my experience. Didn't the manufacturers of the Flyer re-program the Panasonic software? Could this account for your different experience?

 

Edit: crossed with flecc

Edited October 12, 201114 yr by tillson

In fairness, this is the first venture by Bosch into anything to do with cycling.

.

 

Bosch are one of the largest privately owned company's in the world,and world biggest automotive technology company. They are a registered charity and plough twice the normal amounts of money back into R&R and a considerable amount to charity. In 2010 they turned over 47.5 billion. They have profits in the billions per year (suffering like everyone else at the moment). I think when they decide to do something they are pretty serious, and have the kind of resources that others can only dream about.......

 

They do not build or design bikes but have designed a very good system to power the latest generation of e bikes. That the system has been adopted by more then 16 major bike manufacturers must tell you something, in fact it is hard to keep up with the number of adopters.

 

I and many others at home and abroad like the feel and performance of the system very much.....All I am saying is before you go out and spend your hard earned on another crank drive bike, give one a go!lol

I'm aware if that of course Eddie, but likewise Panasonic, they are a giant too with widespread involvement in many areas.

 

My observation was not a criticism, just an observation of the vastly different relative experience. The point is that experience in a field can't be bought with cash, only with time.

 

There's no doubt that many like the Bosch system, just as many like the Panasonic one. I'm just pleased we have the choice and have more types arriving. As ever with e-bikes and their motor systems, there is no best one, the preferences are too personal for each individual for there to be only one. Both the Panasonic and Bosch systems are obviously just too good to be ignored when choosing a crank drive e-bike, and preferably both should be tried before buying, as well as some hub motor bikes.

Crank Wars - I like it !

It's system allows full power at any cadence and is cunningly arranged so that low, medium or high cadence riders can have their individual prefered cadence at legal cutoff speeds.

.

 

So how does this work? And how is the bike speed limited?

So how does this work? And how is the bike speed limited?

 

Best I answer more fully after I've been riding and examining one, which is currently scheduled for next week on the first one in this country.

 

I do know how it works, but I suspect I'll be able to give a wider range of useful information after physically checking it out. I'll publish a full report in the forum of course.