A Good Toy While the Battery Lasted

[flecc]

Thanks Vikki and John, naughty Wisper, dual pricing!

The new price doesn't surprise me since the former £299 was a brave decision By David to relinquish profit for market advantage. At that price he would have been giving away money with each new supplies battery sold.
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[Mussels]

37V, 14Ah, £485

Under SHOP.

Ah I see, Flecc linked through to the old Wisper site that is still live. Confusing.
wisper-bikes.com

 

[flecc]

I assure you they are,wait a couple of days,I'll confirm this,I was looking at a decent Li-Po bat sub $200,I need to get back into the office to check

Not the bike manufacturer batteries though. Apart from the fact of not fitting their bikes, so many have had their fingers burnt with very short life lithium batteries that they may well be reluctant to risk £200 on an unknown cheap source.

Sub £200 doesn't look realistic for anything that's any good if sourced from the Far East at current exchange rates.
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[flecc]

Ah I see, Flecc linked through to the old Wisper site that is still live. Confusing.
wisper-bikes.com

Thats the one that Google finds top, trouble waiting to happen!
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[carpetbagger]

The same think happened with Powabyke Lithiums....just when i was close to buying one the price shot up from £300 to £500......Basically at that price they aren't going to sell any....A lot of e-bikers get them because of ill health as a means to get themselves back on the road....if you are paying out £500 for a battery every 2 years whether you use it or not its a no brainer...Sales of the top end bikes will slow or stop when people realise the true costs involved.....Only poeople who use them for work will realise any sort of benefit and e-bikes will become a toy for the more wealthy....Ah well i have had a bit of a moan now....looks like the old Powabyke(classic as it is now known) with the relatively cheap, heavy lead acid batteries has just had a stay of execution....my not high mileage ones will be having their 4th birthday party this september.....everybody welcome

 

[fcurran]

The same think happened with Powabyke Lithiums....just when i was close to buying one the price shot up from £300 to £500......Basically at that price they aren't going to sell any....A lot of e-bikers get them because of ill health as a means to get themselves back on the road....if you are paying out £500 for a battery every 2 years whether you use it or not its a no brainer...Sales of the top end bikes will slow or stop when people realise the true costs involved.....Only poeople who use them for work will realise any sort of benefit and e-bikes will become a toy for the more wealthy....Ah well i have had a bit of a moan now....looks like the old Powabyke(classic as it is now known) with the relatively cheap, heavy lead acid batteries has just had a stay of execution....my not high mileage ones will be having their 4th birthday party this september.....everybody welcome

All batteries have gone up from source and quite significantly Im afraid. Slight correction Carpetbagger the lithium PLUS battery is £449 and the Lithium LITE is £249. You will however need a charger (a one off purchase initially) at £75. The Lithium PLUS will cover in excess of 30 miles pedal assist while the LITE will cover circa 15 miles in pedal assist.

regards

FrankC
Powabyke Ltd

 

[carpetbagger]

its still a lot of money frank if they only last about 2 years...originally they where quoted as having a lifespan of 3 times that of lead acid,,hence the price was 3 times more but with the weight advantage..You can get the lead acids for £88.11.....so whats the point.....it appears the lifespan isn't there for a lot of riders...or are the Powabyke ones a slightly different breed that will last.... Have you had any feedback since you have sold them?

 

[Tim]

Thanks Vikki and John, naughty Wisper, dual pricing!

The new price doesn't surprise me since the former £299 was a brave decision By David to relinquish profit for market advantage. At that price he would have been giving away money with each new supplies battery sold.
.

Yes, this was exactly our situation too, we've been losing money on batteries lately and have been inundated by customers from mainland Europe who'd realised our batteries were up to €200 cheaper than packs from local suppliers. Completely unsustainable once parity with the Euro approached.

 

[fcurran]

its still a lot of money frank if they only last about 2 years...originally they where quoted as having a lifespan of 3 times that of lead acid,,hence the price was 3 times more but with the weight advantage..You can get the lead acids for £88.11.....so whats the point.....it appears the lifespan isn't there for a lot of riders...or are the Powabyke ones a slightly different breed that will last.... Have you had any feedback since you have sold them?

It is expensive, I can't deny that. We have been doing Lithium batteries for two and a half years now and have not had anyone that I can think of replace their original lithium. A complete set of 3 lead acid battery replacements cost £125, yes there are many cheaper alternatives on the market but they won't have the same performance or last as long. For example Vikki is on her 4th set of battery cells in 2.5 years but she was sourcing her own cells which were far cheaper than the ones we supply (Vikki, correct me if Im wrong). It's a catch 22 situation I'm afraid!

Regards

FrankC

 

[Vikki]

That's right, Frank. We buy so many 12V, 12Ah batteries that we get them just shy of a tenner each. Normal price is around the £25 mark. The company sells them to me at cost so for me to replace my batteries every 6 months was not too horrendous. Takes 45 minutes to swap them out. The original Panasonics lasted a lot longer (14 months) but they were 14Ah. I'd only just put the fourth set in when I plumped for the Wisper.

First replacement (Yuasa) set lasted 6 months. Then the Lucas ones lasted 7 months and the last set (Yuasa again) lasted only 5 months). Come to think of it that's 5 lots of batteries in total (4 times replaced). The last set barely got 120 charges. I expect this new set to last many years since Old Faithful is now in graceful retirement. I'm keeping him as a spare.

Now! The batteries were not dead. They just no longer did the mileage I needed. I would notice that mileage was diminishing and from just barely getting me home to flattening 2 miles away from home only took 5 days. They go down that fast toward the end. By this point I figure to have lost 40% capacity. The big tyres (26" x 2") probably didn't help and perhaps the system as a whole was ageing and less efficient. But yes, it's fair to say that cheaper batteries do not have the lifespan of more expensive types.

However, the last set I ended up charging at both ends of the journey and then I found that they died before I even got to work so I reckon I rode those batteries into the ground.

Mind you, the Yuasa batteries were not really designed for cyclic use but at that price I'm not going to argue the toss over how long they last. The Lucas ones were good for cyclic use but were hybridised, good for standby, good for cyclic (read: general all rounder not excelling at either). You get what you pay for but sometimes you hit that sweetspot where trading lifespan for cost balances out. Twenty-nine quid for six months - I'd buy that for a dollar Full price on those batteries and I wouldn't have gone near them.

Best regards.

Vikki.

 

[rog_london]

Dryfit batteries

That's right, Frank. We buy so many 12V, 12Ah batteries that we get them just shy of a tenner each. Normal price is around the £25 mark.

First replacement (Yuasa) set lasted 6 months. Then the Lucas ones lasted 7 months and the last set (Yuasa again) lasted only 5 months). Come to think of it that's 5 lots of batteries in total (4 times replaced). The last set barely got 120 charges. I expect this new set to last many years since Old Faithful is now in graceful retirement. I'm keeping him as a spare.

Now! The batteries were not dead. They just no longer did the mileage I needed. I would notice that mileage was diminishing and from just barely getting me home to flattening 2 miles away from home only took 5 days. They go down that fast toward the end. By this point I figure to have lost 40% capacity. The big tyres (26" x 2") probably didn't help and perhaps the system as a whole was ageing and less efficient. But yes, it's fair to say that cheaper batteries do not have the lifespan of more expensive types.

However, the last set I ended up charging at both ends of the journey and then I found that they died before I even got to work so I reckon I rode those batteries into the ground.

Yes, your experience with the Dryfits mirrors what Yuasa themselves say, and our experiences too (I've posted elsewhere on this subject). We're in the commercial fire alarm business and consequently I have good access to a range of sizes of Dryfit (which means I don't pay for them) - 6V and 12V versions up to 12V 65 amp hour (the latter just a little heavy for an e-bike at around 23kg each!).

It's well known that they last and last subject to some basic conditions: (1) don't run them flat - preferably, not more than HALF flat. (2) Recharge immediately after any use. Don't even leave them for a few hours - it makes a significant difference. (3) Use a properly designed charger which finishes off in constant-voltage mode so that the batteries are not overcharged.

If you do that - five to seven years life, 600-800 half charges.

When your batteries start to fail what happens, of course, in effect, is that you have a smaller battery hiding inside a big case. So, if you were half-discharging your 12AH batteries but you lose 40% of the capacity then you're almost totally discharging what remains every trip on the same journey - and the remaining capacity will fall away very rapidly. Just a few days is what I would expect.

Off topic entirely - the 65 amp hour jobs are splendid for running a 600 watt mains inverter. I use three connected in parallel, and that setup will run a full size desktop computer all day, without getting anywhere near to a full discharge. We often find ourselves working in places where there is no mains supply (yet) and an inverter is much less hassle than a generator.

Rog.

 

[Charlie]

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

I personally think the Torq to be a great product, but let down by the battery technology.

I agree that if I used the torq every day as a commuter tool, then a new battery would be easy to justify. But to pay that much for a battery that may, or may not last, doesn't seem to make much sense.

I think the Torq will be retired for the time being, and kept for when batteries are better proven and/or cheaper. Who knows, an unrestricted Torq may one day be a collectors item

I still enjoy visiting this site to keep up to date with current developments within the e-bike world.

Cheers Charlie.

 

[flecc]

I think the Torq will be retired for the time being, and kept for when batteries are better proven and/or cheaper. Who knows, an unrestricted Torq may one day be a collectors item

Thanks for the follow up Charlie.

I think the original Torq is already a classic, and with the lack of performance e-bikes due to our legal restrictions, the demand for a very low mileage one like yours will probably rise before very long. That will be particularly true in a couple of years time when new bikes will have to be pedelec only and throttles increasingly disappear.

Make sure you look after it!
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[Alex728]

Are the bulk of ebikes still being sold in East and SE Asia?

The impression I get is they seem to end up the more affluent (by Asian standards anyway) areas of South China and places like Singapore, Malaysia...

These regions are also hot - 20 celsius in Winter - and rog did post a while back about how lead acid batteries do not last very long at all in such tropical weather (about a year?)

I do wonder if the reduction in battery life is less of a hardship to the Oriental customers, and if they are indeed the main market then its clearly going to shape where investment goes for product development (obviously the exchange rate won't affect matters as much)

also I presume the market for high power NiMH batteries disappeared as other electronic devices have stopped using them..

Incidentally Powacycle seems to be keeping the price of its replacement batteries constant, although I think they did increase prices last year when the recession first started to bite...

 

[flecc]

Are the bulk of ebikes still being sold in East and SE Asia?

The impression I get is they seem to end up the more affluent (by Asian standards anyway) areas of South China and places like Singapore, Malaysia...

These regions are also hot - 20 celsius in Winter - and rog did post a while back about how lead acid batteries do not last very long at all in such tropical weather (about a year?)

I do wonder if the reduction in battery life is less of a hardship to the Oriental customers, and if they are indeed the main market then its clearly going to shape where investment goes for product development.

also I presume the market for high power NiMH batteries disappeared as other electronic devices have stopped using them..

The largest market is still China, but doubtless not using lead acid batteries any more on bikes sold in recent years. Other types like lithium and NiMh prefer warmer temperatures in the 20 to 30 degrees C range, so no problem there, though in their cold winter regions they'll suffer with all types as we do.

NiMh high discharge D cells have suffered a large loss of demand and manufacturers have switched to production of various lithium types. Good quality high discharge D cells are increasingly difficult to source and they are never at prices acceptable to e-bike manufacturers now. The position seems a little easier with the sub C size where there is still some demand, but these are not useful for most e-bike manufacturers.
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[Vikki]

Hi, Rog.

That's pretty much why I chose the Wisper. Its long range means that by the time I get back home I've not even used half of the battery. That should keep that little fella happier.

Best regards.

Vikki.

 

[rog_london]

Hi, Rog.

That's pretty much why i chose the Wisper. Its long range means that by the time i get back home I've not even used half of the battery. That should keep that little fella happier.

Best regards.

Vikki.

Well, me too - although I don't commute, and my Wisper will only ever be a 'fun' bike - to get me to exercise. Not much fun being had until the weather improves though.

I did have a bit of fun on Sunday afternoon. - I'd ridden up to Harrow Weald where there is a mini roundabout, and I stopped to let some cars pass - and someone on a road bike timed his arrival better than I had and zipped past me into a gap in the traffic and off up the road. In due course I followed him, and then we came to a slight incline.

His speed dropped drastically and I was catching him fast - so I slowed down to maintain a discreet distance. The gradient increases steadily approaching the next roundabout, and his speed dropped to probably around 7mph. He changed down several gears, and was out of the saddle pedalling hard.

I planned to turn left, and couldn't resist it - I went up on the pavement and must have given him quite a shock when I whistled by on the inside at about 20mph (God bless the green button - well, I was off road, wasn't I?) before disappearing off down the side road. I didn't see him again - I think he was going straight on.

You could miss the battery, partly obscured by the rider's legs, and otherwise it just looks like a nice mountain bike.

They do go wonderfully well up hill with not too much effort, don't they? Mind you, I'm a lightweight, which obviously helps, though from what you say you don't seem to do too badly yourself!

Rog.

 

[WALKERMAN]

Well, me too - although I don't commute, and my Wisper will only ever be a 'fun' bike - to get me to exercise. Not much fun being had until the weather improves though.

I did have a bit of fun on Sunday afternoon. - I'd ridden up to Harrow Weald where there is a mini roundabout, and I stopped to let some cars pass - and someone on a road bike timed his arrival better than I had and zipped past me into a gap in the traffic and off up the road. In due course I followed him, and then we came to a slight incline.

His speed dropped drastically and I was catching him fast - so I slowed down to maintain a discreet distance. The gradient increases steadily approaching the next roundabout, and his speed dropped to probably around 7mph. He changed down several gears, and was out of the saddle pedalling hard.

I planned to turn left, and couldn't resist it - I went up on the pavement and must have given him quite a shock when I whistled by on the inside at about 20mph (God bless the green button - well, I was off road, wasn't I?) before disappearing off down the side road. I didn't see him again - I think he was going straight on.

You could miss the battery, partly obscured by the rider's legs, and otherwise it just looks like a nice mountain bike.

They do go wonderfully well up hill with not too much effort, don't they? Mind you, I'm a lightweight, which obviously helps, though from what you say you don't seem to do too badly yourself!

Rog.

I find this happens quite a bit on my route each day. There are several steep inclines which the ProConnect takes easily in its stride.
A few weeks ago I was gently pedalling up one of the hills when a much younger bloke started to pull alongside me. He was extremely overheated and just managed to spurt out "Is that an electric bike?"

I gave him a brief summary of the bike before he eased-up and then he quickly fell behind, never to be seen again.

 

[Vikki]

I've got no hills on my route oo, hang on, that should be a that's better. I can't really attest to the hill climbing ability. Certainly sounds like you guys have fun, though.

 

[rog_london]

I find this happens quite a bit on my route each day. There are several steep inclines which the ProConnect takes easily in its stride.
A few weeks ago I was gently pedalling up one of the hills when a much younger bloke started to pull alongside me. He was extremely overheated and just managed to spurt out "Is that an electric bike?"

I gave him a brief summary of the bike before he eased-up and then he quickly fell behind, never to be seen again.

I'm sure I could easily get us a bad name. I don't misbehave like that on my motorbike - what is it about an electric bike that brings out the hooligan in me? Dare I suggest that there is more snobbery in cycling than in most other sports/pastimes, and that I'm no better than the rest of them!

Just wait until I'm *really* old and decrepit and have to get one of those three-wheeled scooters. I'm beginning to understand what it is that turns nice old ladies into a positive menace on the pavement - as a pedestrian I've heard language that would make a sailor blush because I was 'in the way'.

Rog.