Approved ebike list?

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I'm inclined to agree.

At the talks, so far, have been two trade associations and the CTC....

How do we organise? Request forum section here? Separate forum?

Scope?
I'm not sure, Miles.

This needs a critical mass of ebikers to stand a chance of being heard, and the British are renowned for being apathetic when it comes to things like this. Add in all the thousands that are wholly unaware that they have bought, and are riding, something that's illegal (a quick glance through sales stats on ebay give an idea of those numbers) and I'm not at all sure of the best way to grab their attention.

This forum is a good place to start, but it does seem to be commercially run for the trade, primarily, so if there is a difference between what the trade supporters of this forum wish to see in law and what ordinary ebikers wish to see then it could well create a potential problem.

ES has a few UK members, but probably not that many who have any real interest in the law.

One thing I'm fairly sure of, though, is that if we relied on getting positive support before going forward to the DfT then I doubt we'd get enough people to agree. Perhaps one way forward might be to assume support from all on here unless we get a majority who positively state that they disagree with any proposal. That way we could, legitimately, claim that any representation made was representative of the views of a fairly large number of UK ebike riders.
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
2
Dumfries & Galloway
There are many questions that spring to mind...

However, it all boils down to

A. Lobby via the BEAB
B. Go it alone

Or

C. Stop worrying and love the bomb
 
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Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
Hi Shemozzle

In a nutshell as Jeremy says very few bikes sold in the UK are within the letter of the law as it stands. The main reason being that 99% of the bikes sold in the UK have motors rated at 250W.

The Wisper bikes currently being used by both Sussex and City of London police are completely legal as both forces have paid extra for us to install 200W motors. Other forces have not been not so particular.

All of the bikes sold by BEBA members as far as I know are legal in Europe and most of them conform to EN15194 with the exception that some have a throttle. The use of the throttle is currently legal in the UK on all pedelecs. Due to BEBA's intervention it is very likely to remain legal as long as the manufacturers/distributors have all bikes with a throttle Type Approved. (TA is required for bikes with throttles that operate past 6KPM without the need for the pedals to be turning in a forward direction)

BEBA floored two questions at the November meeting.

Both questions and answers are from memory and should not be taken as the definitive situation, however Wisper and Hero Eco who were represented at the meeting and other BEBA members I have spoken to are happy to continue working within the spirit of these answers.

1. Will bikes fitted with a throttle prior to the new regulations coming into force be considered illegal when the new regulations are law?

Answer; Grandfather rights will prevail in this matter due to the numbers of such bikes being on the road already.

2. Due to the fact that 99% of EPACS and E bikes currently being sold in the UK have 250W rated motors in conjunction with the European standard EN15194, will the DfT be taking action against any one selling or riding these bikes.

Answer; As bikes conforming to EN15194 are already legal in Europe and we will be adopting EN15194 in the UK in the near future, it is very unlikely that the DfT would support any such prosecutions.

I don't think we will get any more than this from the DfT before the introduction of the new regulations in the UK.

Knowing the facts and being involved in the talks, in my seriously considered opinion the use of 250W motors is OK as long as the bikes conform or better still are certified to EN15194, however this is only my personal opinion. The majority of good, reliable electric bikes for sale in the UK are certified to EN15194 and the manufacturers/distributors will have the certificates on file or already shown on their web pages. So it will not be difficult to find one.

All the best

David
My concern isn't the use of 250W motors in EPACs, as I am near-certain that the courts would rule that any ebike approved to EN15194 is legal to use here under our treaty's and obligations with the EU. Ideally the government should have enshrined the EU EPAC regulations in statute to make this watertight, but nevertheless I think that the courts would have a hard time showing that a EPAC that was properly approved and unmodified was actually illegal to use in the UK.

My major concern is that there are thousands of ebikes being sold via outlets like ebay, and being bought and used by large numbers of innocent people, that are not approved to EN15194 and don't comply with UK law. There are also many formerly Type Approved EPACs that are no longer Type Approved by virtue of having been modified, either pre or post sale (fitment of throttles, removal of speed restricters etc), and there are also quite a lot of kit or DIY ebike conversions (including some being sold by BEBA members), which currently have no easy route for UK regulation compliance demonstration once built.

All told there are, without a doubt, very large numbers of ebikes being used in the UK that don't comply with either the EU EPAC regulations or the UK EAPC regulations.

The DfT needs to firstly be made aware of this, and secondly needs to be encouraged to do something positive to address it, without detriment to the present situation. It would be better if we, ordinary ebike riders presented a proposal to the DfT to address this, as despite everything any trade association will be seen, both by the DfT and consumers, as wanting to direct things in a way that suits them. This isn't a criticism or a statement that I think BEBA, or any other trade body, would act against the wishes of consumers, just that there will be suspicion that it might.

Finally, you refer to "grandfather rights". Given that there are only a tiny number of UK EAPC regulation compliant ebikes, maybe a hundred or so at most I would think, and that these are the only ones who could possibly have any legal rights, you need to think long and hard about what the DfT are actually offering here. AFAICS they could well be making an offer that sounds attractive but effectively retains the present status quo, with thousands of ebikes remaining illegal.

As mentioned before, I've been through a very similar process with the DfT and CAA over deregulation of very light aircraft and have a pretty good feel from that experience as to how they really work. I would be inherently mistrustful of any offer made by them until every minutest detail has been analysed very carefully and a full impact assessment made.
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
2,197
68
Sevenoaks Kent
There are many questions that spring to mind...

However, it all boils down to

A. Lobby via the BEAB
B. Go it alone

Or

C. Stop worrying and love the bomb
Either way I would be delighted to help as a Manufacturer, Distributor, BEBA member or of course as an ebike rider!!! :eek:

All the best

David
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
2,593
1,041
Typical of you.
Keep going, please. You're just making me laugh my socks off, envisioning you frothing at the mouth as you type off your latest 'witty' retort.
If you had a pen you'd be writing in green ink.
You two should get a room.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
2,197
68
Sevenoaks Kent
My concern isn't the use of 250W motors in EPACs, as I am near-certain that the courts would rule that any ebike approved to EN15194 is legal to use here under our treaty's and obligations with the EU. Ideally the government should have enshrined the EU EPAC regulations in statute to make this watertight, but nevertheless I think that the courts would have a hard time showing that a EPAC that was properly approved and unmodified was actually illegal to use in the UK.

My major concern is that there are thousands of ebikes being sold via outlets like ebay, and being bought and used by large numbers of innocent people, that are not approved to EN15194 and don't comply with UK law. There are also many formerly Type Approved EPACs that are no longer Type Approved by virtue of having been modified, either pre or post sale (fitment of throttles, removal of speed restricters etc), and there are also quite a lot of kit or DIY ebike conversions (including some being sold by BEBA members), which currently have no easy route for UK regulation compliance demonstration once built.

All told there are, without a doubt, very large numbers of ebikes being used in the UK that don't comply with either the EU EPAC regulations or the UK EAPC regulations.

The DfT needs to firstly be made aware of this, and secondly needs to be encouraged to do something positive to address it, without detriment to the present situation. It would be better if we, ordinary ebike riders presented a proposal to the DfT to address this, as despite everything any trade association will be seen, both by the DfT and consumers, as wanting to direct things in a way that suits them. This isn't a criticism or a statement that I think BEBA, or any other trade body, would act against the wishes of consumers, just that there will be suspicion that it might.

Finally, you refer to "grandfather rights". Given that there are only a tiny number of UK EAPC regulation compliant ebikes, maybe a hundred or so at most I would think, and that these are the only ones who could possibly have any legal rights, you need to think long and hard about what the DfT are actually offering here. AFAICS they could well be making an offer that sounds attractive but effectively retains the present status quo, with thousands of ebikes remaining illegal.

As mentioned before, I've been through a very similar process with the DfT and CAA over deregulation of very light aircraft and have a pretty good feel from that experience as to how they really work. I would be inherently mistrustful of any offer made by them until every minutest detail has been analysed very carefully and a full impact assessment made.
I absolutely agree Jeremy,

BEBA pointed out to the DfT that there were a lot of bikes on the road that neither complied with EN15194 or the UK regs, and specified speed pedelecs in particular, legal in Germany and Switzerland (under stricter conditions) but not here. We mentioned this in an attempt to push them into bringing the MOFA class into the UK. They did not feel the time was right as licenses had recently been reviewed and it would take a completely different class of vehicle to be added. They continued by saying that anything with a motor rated at more than 250W was simply a low powered motor bike and had to conform with low powered motor bike regulations. It was legal to ride such machines but only under exactly the same conditions as a low powered motor bike. Anyone caught riding such a machine would be dealt with by the police and would probably be prosecuted for riding an unlicensed motor vehicle, without an MOT, insurance, road tax, helmet etc. If the person caught riding a high powered electric bike (anything over a rated 250W) had a driving license they would be open to being fined and gain at least 4 penalty points on their license. If they did not have a license this would be added to the list! In nutshell, riding a pedelec with a motor rated at more than 250W would be considered in the same way as anyone riding an unregistered etc. petrol motorbike. Why people should think it's OK to ride such a vehicle simply because it's motor is electric is at best confusing!

Regarding Grandfather rights, thanks for the advice, I will write to our contact clarification.

All the best

David
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
In nutshell, riding a pedelec with a motor rated at more than 250W would be considered in the same way as anyone riding an unregistered etc. petrol motorbike. Why people should think it's OK to ride such a vehicle simply because it's motor is electric is at best confusing!
What the power test in EN15194 has to do with a motor's continuously rated power is also pretty confusing......
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I absolutely agree Jeremy,

BEBA pointed out to the DfT that there were a lot of bikes on the road that neither complied with EN15194 or the UK regs, and specified speed pedelecs in particular, legal in Germany and Switzerland (under stricter conditions) but not here. We mentioned this in an attempt to push them into bringing the MOFA class into the UK. They did not feel the time was right as licenses had recently been reviewed and it would take a completely different class of vehicle to be added. They continued by saying that anything with a motor rated at more than 250W was simply a low powered motor bike and had to conform with low powered motor bike regulations. It was legal to ride such machines but only under exactly the same conditions as a low powered motor bike. Anyone caught riding such a machine would be dealt with by the police and would probably be prosecuted for riding an unlicensed motor vehicle, without an MOT, insurance, road tax, helmet etc. If the person caught riding a high powered electric bike (anything over a rated 250W) had a driving license they would be open to being fined and gain at least 4 penalty points on their license. If they did not have a license this would be added to the list! In nutshell, riding a pedelec with a motor rated at more than 250W would be considered in the same way as anyone riding an unregistered etc. petrol motorbike. Why people should think it's OK to ride such a vehicle simply because it's motor is electric is at best confusing!

Regarding Grandfather rights, thanks for the advice, I will write to our contact clarification.

All the best

David
I think the issue of motor power is, as said before, a complete red herring. We all know that many EU EPACS, properly Type Approved to EN15194, have power outputs far in excess of 250W. This isn't a criticism, just an observation that many manufacturers have, quite lawfully and reasonably, exploited the way that the power assessment test in Annex D has been defined.

The key issue is speed and weight. If something is significantly faster than a pedal bike, or significantly heavier (or both) then it presents a higher risk of injury, damage or death to a third party. This is at the heart of all risk-based legislation, for example we apply much tighter regulation to trucks than we do to cars, and we also apply much tighter regulation to motor cycles than we do to light mopeds.

We need to shift the focus away from power, just as we did when negotiating with the DfT and CAA over deregulation of very light aircraft. Eventually they agreed that potential accident speed and mass (weight) were the only critical factors that needed to be defined, as everything else had no significant effect on risk. Exactly the same argument applies here. If the maximum power assist speed were to be doubled from ~15mph to 30mph, then even if the weight were kept the same the kinetic energy in a collision would increase by a factor of 4; a powerful argument in favour of keeping a low assist speed for ordinary ebikes.

There is a big risk in insisting on sticking to 250W in UK legislation, in that someone could come along and test an EN15194 EPAC at a later date and show that it really delivered maybe double this power in reality. I would strongly suggest that this is a can of worms that the industry does not want to open!
 

amigafan2003

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 12, 2011
1,389
139
In nutshell, riding a pedelec with a motor rated at more than 250W would be considered in the same way as anyone riding an unregistered etc.
Phew! I'm so glad my motor is rated at 250w

;)
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
2,197
68
Sevenoaks Kent
I agree Miles, but that's what we have to work with, to try and change it would be a nightmare and probably impossible. Of course it gives us all scope to legally peak at higher a power than 250W, surely a benefit to all involved. If the peak was set to 250W the market like the bikes would probably stall!

All the best

David
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
What the power test in EN15194 has to do with a motor's continuously rated power is also pretty confusing......
Depends which power test in EN15194 you choose. If you use the rated power test method, then the bike would feel gutless to ride. If you choose the Annex D method in EN15194 then you can legally have several hundred watts continuous power..............

It's so easy to reduce the power for the first few seconds so that the acceleration time over 20 metres in the AnneX D test results in a "pass", that I strongly suspect that most manufacturers do exactly this to make their EPACs compliant.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Hi Shemozzle

1. Will bikes fitted with a throttle prior to the new regulations coming into force be considered illegal when the new regulations are law?

Answer; Grandfather rights will prevail in this matter due to the numbers of such bikes being on the road already.

2. Due to the fact that 99% of EPACS and E bikes currently being sold in the UK have 250W rated motors in conjunction with the European standard EN15194, will the DfT be taking action against any one selling or riding these bikes.

Answer; As bikes conforming to EN15194 are already legal in Europe and we will be adopting EN15194 in the UK in the near future, it is very unlikely that the DfT would support any such prosecutions.

I don't think we will get any more than this from the DfT before the introduction of the new regulations in the UK.

David
Hi David,

Thank you for the clarification.
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
I agree Miles, but that's what we have to work with, to try and change it would be a nightmare and probably impossible. Of course it gives us all scope to legally peak at higher a power than 250W, surely a benefit to all involved. If the peak was set to 250W the market like the bikes would probably stall!
What they should have done was set an absolute limit of say 750 Watts and output could be limited to that. Using a continuous rating for motors with hugely different thermal time constants is a nonsense to start with.

If the concern is with acceleration rates, then it's torque that needs to be limited, not power. You can have whatever torque you want with 250Watts
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
2,197
68
Sevenoaks Kent
There is a big risk in insisting on sticking to 250W in UK legislation, in that someone could come along and test an EN15194 EPAC at a later date and show that it really delivered maybe double this power in reality. I would strongly suggest that this is a can of worms that the industry does not want to open!
Many EPACS conforming to EN19154 already peak at 500W plus which is massively helpful in short bursts when hill climbing although they will eventually cut out and need to be reset.

It was considered that as speed and acceleration were both restricted, defined by EN15194 that the extra power being available when needed was acceptable.

This of course does give manufacturers a bit of a head ache, our Alpino bikes for instance will produce around 500W at peak, very useful for short hill climbs and getting the bike moving especially on hill starts with a heavy load. However the motor will eventually cut out when running under 500W, i.e. when a heavy rider is climbing a long steep hill, some riders think this is a fault. It is therefore important that the balance between power and usability is nigh on perfect.

It was also felt that the reason weight limits were imposed in the first place was because the old fashioned lead acid batteries were making the bikes less stable and more difficult to control. I don't think there are any bikes weighing more than 30kg available now, 10kg under the old UK limit.

All the best

David
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
It was considered that as speed and acceleration were both restricted, defined by EN15194 that the extra power being available when needed was acceptable.
It has to be recognised that, using the acceleration test in EN15194, this is potentially continuously available power and not just "peak" power.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
If the concern is with acceleration rates, then it's torque that needs to be limited, not power. You can have whatever torque you want with 250Watts
I couldn't agree more. This is the compliance test demonstration method for power from the EN:

Maximum power measurement - Alternative method

D.1 Generalities

This Annex gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.
The maximum power which the bicycle gives assistance may differ by ± 5% of the power indicated on the label described in Clause 5. During a production conformity check, the maximum speed may differ by ± 10% from the above-mentioned determined value. The test shall be performed without pedalling using only the electrical assistance system (the test bicycle shall be prepared accordingly).

D.2 Test conditions

a) The test may be performed either on a test track, a test bench or on a stand that keeps the motor driven wheel free of the ground.

b) The speed-measuring device should have the following characteristics:
-Accuracy: ± 2%
-Resolution: 0,1 km/h

c) The ambient temperature should be between 5 °C and 35 °C.

d) Maximum wind speed: 3 m/s.

e) The battery should be fully charged according to the manufacturer's instructions.

f) The test should be performed with mass of the test bicycle equal to 150 kg.

D.3 Test procedure

Any appropriate method for checking for this requirement is acceptable.

a) Pre-condition the EPAC by running it for 5 min at 80% of the maximum assistance speed as declared by the manufacturer.

b) Stop the bicycle.

c) Note the time between the action start and the EPAC to travel 20 meters.

d) Verify the speed value is equal or less than the maximum speed declared by the manufacturer after 20 metres (D).

e) Verify the maximum continuous rated power at wheel is:
P = m x (2d²/T³)
with the time T which is the noted value in c).

NOTE Considering that on a test track, the engine temperature is not stable, and the grip of the tyre on the road can be variable, the result of the measurement should be decreased by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty. The measure is compared to the limit given in the scope of this European Standard.”


I put together a simple spreadsheet to do some what-ifs on this. It shows that you can easily have 400W continuous power available from the motor and still pass, all that's needed is to slug down the power application time from the pedelec sensor system!

To get a reading of "250W" or less during this test, the ebike weighing 150kg needs to take longer than about 7.8 secs to cover 20m from a standing start. As an example of "tweaking the rules" adding a 2 second delay to the power application rate allows a continuous motor power of about 600W to be shown to be "250W" ....................:D
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
2,197
68
Sevenoaks Kent
What they should have done was set an absolute limit of say 750 Watts and output could be limited to that. Using a continuous rating for motors with hugely different thermal time constants is a nonsense to start with.
We would have welcomed that Miles, 1HP would seem to be a sensible limit as long as the top speed and acceleration was strictly controlled, which would be problematic. This is the case in the USA, however because there is not such a strict speed and acceleration control, e bikes are causing problems and were recently banned from NYC.

All the best

David
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
They should state exactly what they want to limit and devise a test for that. If the acceleration test in EN19154 achieves that objective, there should be absolutely no mention of 250Watts continuous in the legislation.