Approved ebike list?

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
They should state exactly what they want to limit and devise a test for that. If the acceleration test in EN19154 achieves that objective, there should be absolutely no mention of 250Watts continuous in the legislation.
This is precisely why I keep harping on about the power limit being a complete red herring.

We know, beyond any doubt, that many of the EN15194 Type Approved ebikes are running at several hundred watts continuous power in practice. People started noticing it a couple of years ago, when new models suddenly had a big performance improvement over previous models approved to the same spec.

To limit kit or DIY conversions to a far lower power doesn't make any sense at all. Limiting speed and weight for kit or DIY conversions makes perfect sense, though.
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
Alternatively, as was said before, a system for testing DIY conversions to meet the acceleration test in EN15194, preferably without trekking 30miles and forking out 50quid...
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
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Sevenoaks Kent
The subject of retrofitting kit systems was raised at the meeting. DfT stated that such vehicles might need single vehicle approval. We are going to be revisiting this subject at the next meeting, I believe it will take place February but to-date I don't have confirmation.

As I will be at the meeting, I would be more than happy to make representations on behalf of Pedelecs members if you would like me to do so.

All the best

David
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
The subject of retrofitting kit systems was raised at the meeting. DfT stated that such vehicles might need single vehicle approval. We are going to be revisiting this subject at the next meeting, I believe it will take place February but to-date I don't have confirmation.

As I will be at the meeting, I would be more than happy to make representations on behalf of Pedelecs members if you would like me to do so.
This is exactly the thing that worries us, David. If we don't get our act together in any other way, we should, at least, put together a document and take up David's kind offer.
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
2
Dumfries & Galloway
Jeremy's 1✓ 2✓ 3✓ works for me

Edit:

For the peeps who missed the original post..

1) Weighed less than 40kg (solo, or 60kg tandem or tricycle)

2) Had a maximum power assisted speed of 15.5mph

3) Complied with the Pedal Cycles (Safety) Regulations 2003 or any law that supersedes this in future
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
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If you guys can put the document together I would be pleased to help in any way I can.

First we need to decide exactly what we want to say. Some headings would be a good start.

All the best

David
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
The subject of retrofitting kit systems was raised at the meeting. DfT stated that such vehicles might need single vehicle approval. We are going to be revisiting this subject at the next meeting, I believe it will take place February but to-date I don't have confirmation.

As I will be at the meeting, I would be more than happy to make representations on behalf of Pedelecs members if you would like me to do so.

All the best

David
Interesting that they raised the notion of SVA, yet they also mentioned grandfather rights!

At present the law does not require that a DIY conversion or kit ebike be Type Approved, so I would be very resistant to the notion that some form of approval by introduced. This would be a retrograde step and would introduce more regulation than we have at present.

UK law has, since 1983, allowed anyone to convert an ordinary pedal cycle into an electrically assisted pedal cycle. The only technical regulatory requirement is that the motor continuous rated power has to be less than 200W. In principle this allows a kit or parts supplier to sell a motor that has been tested to the required British Standard and provide a copy of the defined power output of the motor to the builder. The builder then only has to include this figure on the data plate on the bike and they are, provided they have met the other requirements, legal.

Things have clearly moved on since 1983, and no kit or parts suppliers that I know of are able to supply a motor/controller with a power defined by the required BS. This has meant that all kit or DIY converted ebikes have been illegal for many years.

There is a general principle in regulation that there needs to be a good reason for making it tighter. I can see no good reason in removing the ability for individuals to build kit or DIY conversions provided that these do not increase the risk to the general public.

The simple assessment of maximum weight and speed, plus braking function, that I mentioned earlier is all that is required for a DIY or kit conversion. In the same way that the EPAC power limit is irrelevant because it can legally be circumvented during approval testing, so any similar restriction on a DIY or kit converted ebike is also irrelevant.

I'll try and draft something and put it up on a specific thread here for discussion, and if there is no significant objection suggest that it be put forward to the DfT as representing the wishes of UK consumers. If you could either raise this on our behalf, David, or better still persuade the DfT (and your fellow BEBA members) to allow one of us to put the case to them from consumers, then that would be great.
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
I think we should have more than one tactic prepared. We don't want to be like ETRA and end up with nothing......
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I think we should have more than one tactic prepared. We don't want to be like ETRA and end up with nothing......
True, but I get the feeling that this is early days in the process of possibly amending the law. It seems to me that the DfT doesn't yet have a timetable for amendments and hasn't yet started to put together any consultation documents, so I would guess that we are OK going in with a single wish list, as long as we have a fall back plan.

This approach worked last time I did something similar, although it took six years to get a result!
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
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I'll try and draft something and put it up on a specific thread here for discussion, and if there is no significant objection suggest that it be put forward to the DfT as representing the wishes of UK consumers. If you could either raise this on our behalf, David, or better still persuade the DfT (and your fellow BEBA members) to allow one of us to put the case to them from consumers, then that would be great.
I was thinking exactly this Jeremy and was about to suggest it myself, I will ask the DfT if we can bring another representative to discuss kits, I don't think there would be a problem, I will need to discuss it with Mark first though as he is now BEBA Chair.

I should declare that I have a commercial interest as we have put our Wisper DaaHub kit project on stop until we get clarification.

All the best

David
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
so I would guess that we are OK going in with a single wish list, as long as we have a fall back plan.
Agreed.

I think we should present this as our wanting to be on equal terms with the commercial market, in terms of specification. If there is a need to simplify testing for practical/economic reasons then this should be weighted in our favour and not the other way around.....
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,230
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True, but I get the feeling that this is early days in the process of possibly amending the law. It seems to me that the DfT doesn't yet have a timetable for amendments and hasn't yet started to put together any consultation documents, so I would guess that we are OK going in with a single wish list, as long as we have a fall back plan.

This approach worked last time I did something similar, although it took six years to get a result!
The target date for implementation is 1st Jan 2016. They have to get everything sorted in the life time of the current administration.

All the best

David
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,818
30,381
The target date for implementation is 1st Jan 2016.
13 years after the mess started with the November 2003 implementation of EU type approval 2002/EC/24 and it's reference to 250 watt pedelec exemption.

And three more years of illegal e-bikes and kit bikes hitting the roads.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
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Sevenoaks Kent
13 years after the mess started with the November 2003 implementation of EU type approval 2002/EC/24 and it's reference to 250 watt pedelec exemption.

And three more years of illegal e-bikes and kit bikes hitting the roads.
That about sums it up Flecc!

All the best

David
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
That seems an optimistic timetable for government!

So, if they are aiming for getting it through both chambers by late November 2015 (before the Christmas recess), then they will need to get the draft out for public consultation by around January/February 2015 at the latest, probably earlier, as this is very unlikely to be a high priority in the list of acts going before parliament for approval. The good news is that it will almost certainly only go before sub-committees in either house, so is unlikely to be impacted by any major legislation that's also going through.

My guess is the drafting process, post initial agreement in principle, will take around 6 months, so we are probably looking to have finalised agreement with the DfT by around mid 2014 at a guess. This looks a doable time scale, but I know from first hand experience that things can move very slowly with what are considered to be low importance issues like this within a department. My experience was that getting a meeting more than once every three months was difficult, if not impossible.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
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Although I think it will be finalised long before then, there seems at last to be some urgency behind the DfT team, they simply want to cut through red tape and get the uncertainty sorted out once and for all.

All the best

david
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
Although I think it will be finalised long before then, there seems at last to be some urgency behind the DfT team, they simply want to cut through red tape and get the uncertainty sorted out once and for all.

All the best

david
That sounds hopeful, let's hope they can manage to do something fairly quickly.

It would be good if they could issue an exemption in the meantime, so as to effectively bring forward the effective date of any change. That would at least mean that the uncertainty over risk of prosecution for many might be removed.