Battery Boost

[UrbanPuma]

My knees are bad to the point where I often find walking painfull and I use the Cytronex without issue. I tend to automatically stand on the pedals for extra leverage when starting off but that's mostly because I've left the bike in a higher gear. It takes very little effort to reach 5mph without assistance. You could also start off in a low gear with ease.
I find steep hills cause the most strain on the knees when cycling and that's why I have the electric bike from no-hills.com. . Hill starts haven't been a problem for me either - I just use a low gear to start off.

Exceptional steep hills excluded - I have yet to encounter the serious ones some members endure.

I wouldnt be able to ride a cytronex as my mobility problems mean that i am unable to push down on the pedals to get going from stationary. So for me, the throttle starts are essential. My worry is, what will happen when the EU law comes into effect - how will this affect bikes with throttles and is there a way manufacturers can factor 'throttle only starts' into their designs to accommodate people like me with disabilities?

 

[flecc]

Hi david i have seen them next to each other & there is no simulation at all on the frame they are very different.

Mart mentioned that the wiring diagram was the same and I think that's possibly led to misunderstanding.

A number of bikes including many Wisper models use motors made by specialist manufacturer Suzhou Bafang, and bikes using those can often have the same wiring diagrams.

David's Wisper company have suffered a number of frame imitators so he might have thought this yet another one since there are similarities like the curved downtube and weld-webbing between the City Thunder and Wisper 905se Sport.
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[flecc]

My worry is, what will happen when the EU law comes into effect - how will this affect bikes with throttles and is there a way manufacturers can factor 'throttle only starts' into their designs to accommodate people like me with disabilities?

No they won't be able too. Some Panasonic powered pedelecs have walk alongside throttles operating up to 4 mph, but the power is only meant to pull the bike along, often not really adequate to get a bike and rider off the mark, especially on a slight upslope.

However, they do apply full power at the first pedal downthrust pressure so may be the most suitable pedelecs for your purpose, especially since the High Power mode can be selected to boost that kick-off even more. However, they require around 50% from the rider at all times subsequently so may still not be suitable.

Fundamentally, disability issues are not specifically a part of the EU pedelec legislation, the intention being to provide some assistance to maintain normal cycling both in adverse conditions and for those with less than full fitness.

There is a bicycle based "Low Powered Moped" class that enables a bike to have more power with a motor up to 1000 watts. They are also restricted to 15 mph assist, but can have throttles and have plenty of power to never pedal if wished, even up steep hills. The downside is they have to be registered with a rear number plate and have third party insurance and a helmet must be worn.
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[UrbanPuma]

But, will existing bikes still be allowed? Also, do you have a pic or link to a website for the moped style bike you mention Flecc?

 

[flecc]

But, will existing bikes still be allowed? Also, do you have a pic or link to a website for the moped style bike you mention Flecc?

Existing bikes will definitely still be legal, and that leaves you and others a loophole. You can continuously upgrade all the parts in future and as long as it's the same frame and frame number, that's definitely legal, even though you could effectively create a new throttle powered bike.

There are no bikes specifically named as that low powered moped class, but all those with over-power motors fall into that and should be used in that way with limiting to 15 mph. However, their manufacturers/suppliers haven't taken them through type approval and don't provide the necessary limiting.

It may be that the pedelec only rule will prompt some manufacturers to make bikes for that class. Meanwhile, the easiest way to make one would be to add the high powered Heinzmann motor kit specified for 15 mph limiting to an existing bike. You'd then have to get it individually type approved at a test centre at a cost of £50.
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[UrbanPuma]

There is a bicycle based "Low Powered Moped" class that enables a bike to have more power with a motor up to 1000 watts. They are also restricted to 15 mph assist, but can have throttles and have plenty of power to never pedal if wished, even up steep hills. The downside is they have to be registered with a rear number plate and have third party insurance and a helmet must be worn..

Few more questions Flecc,

1) How much would it cost to register this type of bike?

2) Would existing bikes be legal in this "Low Powered Moped "class then?

 

[flecc]

Few more questions Flecc,

1) How much would it cost to register this type of bike?

2) Would existing bikes be legal in this "Low Powered Moped "class then?

Once you have the type approval, registration is free. You'd have to buy the rear number plate though. The bike has to have an annual tax disc, but that's always free for an electric vehicle.

Yes, any existing e-bikes can be taken through single vehicle type approval to use them as low powered mopeds.

There may be a manufacturer opportunity in future once the EU regulations are fully in place. For example, eZee make some of their models with 250 watt rated motors for the UK and EU with 15 mph limiting and pedelec only, but 350 watt rated for the USA with throttles and no limiting. They could easily provide a 350 watt with 15 mph limiting and throttle control to fit the low powered moped class.

To do that would cost them an investment of €3000, this being the cost of a model type approval for a manufacturer to sell that model throughout Europe.
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[UrbanPuma]

There may be a manufacturer opportunity in future once the EU regulations are fully in place. For example, eZee make some of their models with 250 watt rated motors for the UK and EU with 15 mph limiting and pedelec only, but 350 watt rated for the USA with throttles and no limiting. They could easily provide a 350 watt with 15 mph limiting and throttle control to fit the low powered moped class.

To do that would cost them an investment of €3000, this being the cost of a model type approval for a manufacturer to sell that model throughout Europe.

Would this then be cost-effective for a manufacturer? And how easy would it be to fit a rear number plate to existing bikes - how would they fit it?

 

[flecc]

Would this then be cost-effective for a manufacturer? And how easy would it be to fit a rear number plate to existing bikes - how would they fit it?

The manufacturer has to decide whether the sales justify the expenditure, judging whether the whole of Europe's market has enough demand for this kind of bike. I think the UK would be the only real market since mainland Europeans have had pedelec only for so many years that they are used to it.

Number plates weren't difficult to fit to ordinary bikes with the petrol motors of the past. Here's some examples:

Example 1

Example 2

The front number plate on the second example is no longer necessary. Note the tax disc on the first example.
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[UrbanPuma]

Thanks for those examples Flecc. I think the number plate at the front looks cool but not so keen on the back one - looks rather odd

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Clones

Hi David i have seen them next to each other & there is no simulation at all on the frame they are very different.

Thanks Scatty, as you can imagine I do get a bit miffed and you must admit it is simply a badly executed copy!

All the best David

 

[flecc]

Thanks for those examples Flecc. I think the number plate at the front looks cool but not so keen on the back one - looks rather odd

Actually the front one is incorrectly mounted, it should be inline, but that bike mudguard is too short. When they had them, motorcycles' front number plates were in line but they were done away with on safety grounds since they could slice pedestrians who were hit. Here's an example 'bike
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[UrbanPuma]

Actually the front one is incorrectly mounted, it should be inline, but that bike mudguard is too short. When they had them, motorcycles' front number plates were in line but they were done away with on safety grounds since they could slice pedestrians who were hit. Here's an example 'bike

The angle on this example looks much better - hope the back number plate can be mounted the same way.

 

[flecc]

The angle on this example looks much better - hope the back number plate can be mounted the same way.

That would be illegal if you mean mounting the back plate in line. The back number plate has to be mounted motorbike fashion as I illustrated, but it can slope a bit as shown on that example.
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[mart.hart]

Hi folks,
As spring again approaches…..lol
Ones again my thoughts turn to needing a battery boost.
Plus I am one year older for pedalling back with the trailer and the dog has got fatter and walks even less.

I have seen this on ebay
36 VOLT 9 AMP NIMH ELECTRIC BICYCLE BATTERY PACK *NEW* on eBay (end time 26-Dec-09 14:58:00 GMT)

Would it work as a direct replacement on my city thunder when the battery runs out (about 10-15 miles)and do you think my charger would charge it up.
And any idea what he is talking about thermisters and chargers.
Wasn’t this idea once talked about on the forum using batteries from Aldi ?

Thanks
mart

 

[flecc]

Not worth it for you Mart. NiMh batteries need a dedicated intelligent charger which senses a thermistor that's within the NiMh battery so that the charger knows when to cut out. The name thermistor stands for thermal resistor, and as you might guess, it's resistance changes with heat. When the NiMh battery heats up as the charge completes, the thermistor lets through a cutoff signal for the charger to know it's time to switch off.

You'd need to pay about £60 or more to import a suitable charger or buy one in the UK for much more, and even then the thermistor in the battery might not match the charger. Your lithium battery charger isn't intelligent, it just supplies current and the battery's internal managemnt does the charge cutoff.
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[mart.hart]

Drat….foiled again.

I think my best plan would be SLA batts for back up.
I only need it about 50 times a year so should do a couple of years.
They can go in the trailer as well so there would be no problems carrying them.

I found these on ebay
NP12-12 YUASA 12V 12AH RECHARGEABLE LEAD BATTERY on eBay (end time 04-Feb-10 08:26:17 GMT)

Is that the sort of thing I need.
I guess I could wire 3 in series to get 36volt and then wire in parallel and use a 12 volt charger ?
My thoughts are then to use heavy duty scotch locks on the 2 wires that leave the bikes battery conection. Fly leads to a plug and when the bikes battery dies switch off and plug in the SLA’s

Have I simplified something that is more complicated ?

Thanks again for the help, we have got some great holidays lined up for this year with lots of off road tracks, had some great trails in the New Forrest last year but it is not as flat as I thought when I had to peddle home sometimes.

Take care
mart

Or maybe these
THREE x 12V 10Ah RECHARGABLE BATTERIES - ELECTRIC BIKE on eBay (end time 16-Jan-10 00:00:44 GMT)

If I am getting 10-15 miles would another set up with sla at 10 ah give me the same again (which would be fantastic)

 

[NRG]

This replacement battery problem is a real teaser, there must be a solution...

I was thinking that one of those 'intelligent' RC chargers from HobbyCity may work with the pack Mart linked to on Ebay....they will charge SLA, Nicad, NiMH, Lipo etc etc plus they come with a compatible thermistor that could be embedded into the pack....However, they only seem to go up to 27 cells so no good for 36v plus they need a separate power supply.

A quick Google turned up this:

CE Mark Desktop NiMH or NiCad 30 cell with peak detect, 36 volt charger, 36V 30 cell for international voltage input applications

Seems up to the job and the spec implies a Thermistor....or at least gives the part number of a compatible one


Alternatively, what about a Headway cell pack....not sure if the cartridge packs here are compatible with the City but may be worth looking into....

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=41

 

[mart.hart]

I found these Powersmart and thought my search was over.
Just about to “buy it now” but a search on here says they may not be all that they appear.

36V, 9Ah,36,9, Lightweight, Li-ion Battery, for PowerSmart Electric Bike

Or on eBay you can buy a powersmart 1.5ah 36v for about £10
Lots of people selling them
pro power 36volt battery for cordless drills on eBay (end time 20-Jan-10 17:32:20 GMT)

I must be missing something with those though

Mart

 

[flecc]

NRG, those Powerstream chargers are the imported ones I meant above, and I recommend them on my website for the old eZee NiMh batteries.

They will cost around £60 upwards once imported and there's always the risk of duties being applied, togerher with Post office duty collection charge, bringing it up to about £90.

Mart, the record of cheap lithium batteries has ben very poor, they often fail very early in life. Those tool ones have a very low capacity, so you'd have to parallel around six or more to get the capacity and range you need, and that brings charging and balance problems. They are suspiciously cheap though.

The lead acid ones will be ok, but they are extremely heavy and will give a big performance hit due to that weight. In addition, they only give about half the range you'd expect from 12 Ah due to something called the Peukert effect on these.

The best answer for batteries is to use the right one and accept the cost of that. All the substitute ways that are pursued are full of problems.
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