Cameras for safety & insurance

[Nealh]

For some I think it depends on how good ones eye sight is, for instance the other thread with the Black Merc I saw CE where as the Op saw CL.

Good discussion though on both threads regarding cameras, reading plates and reporting.
To report they don't have to be 100% clear as long as one can enlarge the pic to get a better definition without enhancing. A blurry pic unreadable stands no chance.

 

[georgehenry]

You my have one, but a rear view mirror and keeping an eye on it, coupled with good defensive riding can be a life saver.

One day commuting home from work in the afternoon halfway up a long hill I saw a car in the distance at the bottom of the hill in my mirror going crazy fast and accelerating up the hill toward me with no let up.

The warning from seeing that car in my mirror allowed me to pull over and off the road onto the verge before the car came past at probably approaching a hundred miles an hour where the limit is 40mph.

Completely crazy driving but getting out of the way was the best thing to do.

 

[flecc]

You my have one, but a rear view mirror and keeping an eye on it, coupled with good defensive riding can be a life saver.

One day commuting home from work in the afternoon halfway up a long hill I saw a car in the distance at the bottom of the hill in my mirror going crazy fast and accelerating up the hill toward me with no let up.

The warning from seeing that car in my mirror allowed me to pull over and off the road onto the verge before the car came past at probably approaching a hundred miles an hour where the limit is 40mph.

Completely crazy driving but getting out of the way was the best thing to do.

Well said, exactly what I've being doing for many years.

Everything else on the road has mirrors, even the highest powered motorcycles which virtually never get overtaken.

So on a bicycle, as about the most overtaken of any vehicle, a well used rear view mirror is an essential. In my view riding without one is not only dangerous but to a degree irresponsible.

The look over the shoulder simply isn't good enough, since one needs to see the trend of the approaching behaviour from the rear, not just a still picture mental snapshot.

For this reason I see these close passing videos as largely unnecessary, simply because they are usually avoidable. One might think it unfair that we have to look out for the rear, but we do it automatically without thinking about it for the dangers ahead, and the good use of a mirror soon becomes just as automatic. Truck and bus drivers are doing it all the time, sometimes with up to seven mirrors.**

The benefit is most of those close passes disappearing, and for us with assist power, a momentarily loss of speed to avoid them is easily recovered.

**

 

[matthewslack]

BTW @matthewslack - did anything happen as a result of your Police reports? I'm starting to wonder if video footage is more compelling, and more likely to motivate cops to take action than photos. Trickier to guage speed from a series of photos.

Not yet, and I'm working up to telling them how I would do it, I'll pass on any learnings!

For my long trip in June and July I wanted a record to keep, so it had to be timelapse to keep file size reasonable. Since then I have started to use forward facing video, and rear facing time lapse. I use the GoPro remote to mark highlights and then make clips each evening and discard the original files. So far I am using 1080p, but since I throw so much away, next trip will use 4K.

There are issues, like stills are saved with timestamp of still creation, not video capture. I'm sure real time is available as I have the GPS turned on.

Still learning, and building a library of good and bad!

 

[matthewslack]

You my have one, but a rear view mirror and keeping an eye on it, coupled with good defensive riding can be a life saver.

One day commuting home from work in the afternoon halfway up a long hill I saw a car in the distance at the bottom of the hill in my mirror going crazy fast and accelerating up the hill toward me with no let up.

The warning from seeing that car in my mirror allowed me to pull over and off the road onto the verge before the car came past at probably approaching a hundred miles an hour where the limit is 40mph.

Completely crazy driving but getting out of the way was the best thing to do.

I have added a bar end Cateye after seeing good reviews, very useful addition, great for early warnings, too far out of eye line for use once something bad has begun.

Would not go back to no mirror.

 

[Bogmonster666]

I don't know if many camera users will see your post here.

Well said, exactly what I've being doing for many years.

Everything else on the road has mirrors, even the highest powered motorcycles which virtually never get overtaken.

So on a bicycle, as about the most overtaken of any vehicle, a well used rear view mirror is an essential. In my view riding without one is not only dangerous but to a degree irresponsible.

The look over the shoulder simply isn't good enough, since one needs to see the trend of the approaching behaviour from the rear, not just a still picture mental snapshot.

For this reason I see these close passing videos as largely unnecessary, simply because they are usually avoidable. One might think it unfair that we have to look out for the rear, but we do it automatically without thinking about it for the dangers ahead, and the good use of a mirror soon becomes just as automatic. Truck and bus drivers are doing it all the time, sometimes with up to seven mirrors.**

The benefit is most of those close passes disappearing, and for us with assist power, a momentarily loss of speed to avoid them is easily recovered.

**
View attachment 48699

Agree about the value in having a mirror. Not sure I agree about cyclists being able to avoid close passes easily. On a fast road, by the time you realise a car isn't overtaking sensibly it is often too late to do much about it. Also, there often isn't a safe place to quickly pull over at a moment's notice - you are often up against banks and hedges with nowhere to go. Stopping for every car to pass isn't an option either, as a mode of transport, cycling is already slow for longer journeys. It pains me to say it, but I do think legal enforcement is perhaps a necessary evil as if enough folks are fined then the message will get through to most motorists.

And a mirror isn't going to as effective growing eyes in back of head, especially at night where judging a cars road position is difficult with the glare of headlights.

All for cyclists riding defensively and looking out for oneself is plainly important, but we need to make cycling safer and more accessible and that means encouraging better behaviour by a minority of drivers. I was going to encourage my wife back onto a bike but she is not super confident and I just think the roads around here are simply too dangerous. That is a tragic state of affairs given the urgency of reducing our carbon footprint imo.

I do agree that close passes are largely avoidable but the larger burden of responsibility needs to with those in the fast moving steel boxes that are doing the overtaking. Also, pulling over all the time sends the wrong message to the idiots (sure, would rather pull over than get driven over), but we must avoid encouraging irresponsible driving. For what it is worth I have never really had issues with HGVs and the like - their standard of driving is usually excellent, boy racers, white vans and expensive cars appear to be the worst culprits. A simple lack of respect or awareness I think is the main issue. Maybe people caught should be made to go out cycling for a couple of hours to see what it feels like to be on the outside of the steel box?

 

[matthewslack]

My riding is probably some distance from the average, being mostly rural and long distance, and with a 1.22m wide trailer, so my experiences and I'd better say 'interim' conclusions may well not be valid for the majority of cyclists, who are probably not pulling a trailer, are riding relatively locally and perhaps with a significant proportion of 30 and 40mph urban roads.

In my riding, the close passes can only be avoided by the vehicle drivers. I stop when there is provision to get out of the way, I can't vanish when there isn't. There is nothing more I can do except not ride.

The value of camera footage, especially two cameras front and back, is that incidents and their wider context is captured. Any delay to a driver is clear to see, as is the traffic level and the wait time to the next clear overtaking opportunity.

I have a double figures number of overtakes captured where there is nothing on the road except me, an oncoming vehicle ahead and an overtaking vehicle behind. And still the overtaking driver will swing out and past with no speed reduction and far too tight a margin to the oncoming vehicle.

Up here on the Scottish main A roads this just seems to be normal. Allowing half a second of leeway, or worse, relying on the oncoming driver to get out of the way sideways and by slowing down, is normalised behaviour. That's where the real problem lies.

At times in the last couple of weeks there has been a fatal accident reported every day, some days more than one. I am not in the least surprised.

For me it will be cameras all the way, not to punish so much as to try to get the message out as to how much risk taking driving is going on, what the most common issues are and perhaps to open a conversation about making things better.

For now my overall view is that A roads are not safe for cyclists, and no road is really safe for inexperienced and/or low confidence riders.

The German family of cycles tourists I met four weeks ago having the time of their lives on Harris will have many years to wait before they can ride safely from Ullapool to Oban to complete their hoped for circular trip. The Outer Hebrides leg, largely on 'single track with passing places' roads can be made to work by a group riding two abreast to take the lane, but the mainland part cannot be safely ridden by a family group.

Whether anyone in authority is willing to listen, we will see.

 

[flecc]

Agree about the value in having a mirror. Not sure I agree about cyclists being able to avoid close passes easily. On a fast road, by the time you realise a car isn't overtaking sensibly it is often too late to do much about it. Also, there often isn't a safe place to quickly pull over at a moment's notice - you are often up against banks and hedges with nowhere to go. Stopping for every car to pass isn't an option either, as a mode of transport, cycling is already slow for longer journeys. It pains me to say it, but I do think legal enforcement is perhaps a necessary evil as if enough folks are fined then the message will get through to most motorists.

And a mirror isn't going to as effective growing eyes in back of head, especially at night where judging a cars road position is difficult with the glare of headlights.

All for cyclists riding defensively and looking out for oneself is plainly important, but we need to make cycling safer and more accessible and that means encouraging better behaviour by a minority of drivers. I was going to encourage my wife back onto a bike but she is not super confident and I just think the roads around here are simply too dangerous. That is a tragic state of affairs given the urgency of reducing our carbon footprint imo.

I do agree that close passes are largely avoidable but the larger burden of responsibility needs to with those in the fast moving steel boxes that are doing the overtaking. Also, pulling over all the time sends the wrong message to the idiots (sure, would rather pull over than get driven over), but we must avoid encouraging irresponsible driving. For what it is worth I have never really had issues with HGVs and the like - their standard of driving is usually excellent, boy racers, white vans and expensive cars appear to be the worst culprits. A simple lack of respect or awareness I think is the main issue. Maybe people caught should be made to go out cycling for a couple of hours to see what it feels like to be on the outside of the steel box?

In reply I make the following points:

I'm not speaking of pulling over to make room for those passing. I'm speaking of slowing down to avoid the pinch point when the driver misjudges and runs out of space passing, so pulls in sharply. That is where the real danger lies, not in the closeness of the pass.

The close passes you've all been showing dont worry me. They've been happening to me through all my 70 years of cycling, not one has ever hit me. Therefore the danger has been entirely imaginary, a perception, not a reality. This indicates that every one of the tens of thousands of drivers involved over all those years knew what they were doing and demonstrated sufficient overtaking skill. That none of those protesting have been hit by an overtaker is further proof.

Much is sometimes made of the need for a cyclist to swerve to avoid potholes etc., but the fact above that none of us gets hits by overtakers shows this is a greatly exaggerated risk. Surely it's best for a driver to be overtaking fast? How long is a driver alongside a bicycle and in the danger zone when driving at three or more times the cyclist's speed? Hardly long enough for a cyclist to fit in a swerve!!

In any case it doesn't mean one has to swerve outwards, sensible cycling means not riding in the gutter. Just ride further out to give some swerve room to the left. Those drivers who've always missed you when overtaking will still have the same skill so will miss you just the same. In fact your riding further out will reduce the opportunities they have to close pass. Ok some might yell abuse at you. That's fine, just pleasantly smile back at them.

My further advice to all of you is to get a grip on your nerves and stop being so panicky, getting into a dripping sweat at every little perceived danger. As I've shown above, it's not real danger, which is why you are all still here to protest. Just enjoy your cycling and leave the drivers to enjoying their close passing skills.
.

 

[soundwave]

cars pass me round the country lanes going 60mph but id rater risk that than going down the canal path these days with all the retards flying about on scooters ect because there phone screen comes first and looking were there going comes second.

was watching a guy the other day plodding along on his bike eyes locked to a phone watching his progress on his sat nav app.

 

[matthewslack]

When an oncoming driver has to make an emergency stop to avoid a head-on collision with a passenger carrying coach overtaking me, I question the skill and judgement of the driver.

There is a need for a margin, both in clear extra distance head to head, in clearance sideways, which differs according to relative speed. Not just clearance, but a margin. Not just getting away with it, but a clear demonstrable excess of space, reducing the risk of contact to 'as low as reasonably practicable', and a relative passing speed that does the same for the consequences of any contact.

This is routine in aviation, shipping and railways, and I would encourage anyone interested in safety theory to look into formal 'safety management systems'. Getting basic principles from that huge body of knowledge and experience to become part of the road driver mindset and behaviour would at a stroke eliminate the majority of the poor road behaviour I have seen.

We'll need to disagree I think, @flecc!

 

[StuartsProjects]

Years gone back, in the days before helmet cams, I was hit by a car overtaking me.

I was doing around 25mph, the car went past me at around 45mph (in a 30mph zone) and struck me on the right thigh. Just a few inches closer and I guess I would not be here now.

Fortunatly, having vgood eyesight, I read his number at a significant distance, rang the Police and they did the driver, who was as it turned out was already banned from driving.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Even GoPro max ISO is 6400, and shutter speed control is possible - not so on cheap action cameras. GoPro aperture is F16 equivalent, pretty sharp in good light, but as you say can't be changed - unhelpful for night shooting.



Optical image stabilisation would be fantastic, but action cameras enlarge and crop, or move the sensor... in any case GoPro IS doesn't work at night.



Sensors in action cameras are pretty poor compared to those used in flagship cellphones from the likes of Samsung and Sony.



Sadly, there is no shutter speed control on my CT9000 in that mode, or in any other mode for that matter.



Which action cameras have native 4k sensors?



I don't want half a grand's worth of camera sitting on my chin, I fall on my head too often.

Cheap action cameras still have variable shutter speed normally but you may not have control of that. The fixed aperture means the action camera is toggling between shutter speed and ISO to get the correct brightness image. Any action camera with a 12MP sensor or more is capable of true 4K images but the chipset also dictates whether the action camera can produce 4K video at a reasonable frame rate. There have been action cameras with great sensors but basic chipsets so can do great still images (lens permitting) but poor video. Yes generally I would agree most action cameras can't match flagship phones but there are a few action cameras at higher prices that can and I think there are one or two that have larger sensors than even flagship phones as most flagship phones still use very tiny sensors even if they are very high megapixel. They often fake their image quality with high quality algorithms for eliminating grain, the resultant video looks great but aren't technically a true image or video compared to professional cameras.

Yi action cameras were often sold cheaply, sometimes as low as £20 and they have a 16MP high quality sensor and ambarella chipset but sadly no stabilization but they given fantastic video quality if you use a gimbal like one of the compact chest gimbals.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Then there was the time, also before helmet cams, when a small van passed so close when I was stationary, just getting back on the bike, that my bike caught on the vans rear bumper and got dragged up the road. The guy drove for maybe 200m up the road and turned right at a set of lights and went out of sight.

Fortuantly someone saw him stop, disentangle my bike and drive off. He was done as well.

Again a few inches closer and I guess I would not be typing this.

 

[flecc]

We'll need to disagree I think, @flecc!

Of course, many in here will.

Just let me know when that perfect world you mention arrives, though I very much doubt I'll still be alive then.

Meanwhile we have to live in the world we have, and that is best done without being close to a nervous breakdown.

So best for cyclists to calm down, relax and accept there are cycling dangers out there, or just take up something less exciting like Bowls.

Personally I always accepted the dangers and their rarity, so at no time in my 70 cycling years did I wear a helmet. For most if it they hadn't been invented!
.

 

[flecc]

Posts 31 and 33.

How do you manage it? I've no idea how long you've cycled or how old you are, but how come I suffer none of this? I haven't a mark on me from cycling, nor have I ever had a bike damaged on the road.

Most of my 70 cycling years have been in London, the adjacent Southern Counties and Hampshire, so hardly lacking in vehicles or weight of traffic.

Please don't suggest luck as some are fond of doing, nobody's luck can hold out that long.
.

 

[matthewslack]

Of course, many in here will.

Just let me know when that perfect world you mention arrives, though I very much doubt I'll still be alive then.

Meanwhile we have to live in the world we have, and that is best done without being close to a nervous breakdown.

So best for cyclists to calm down, relax and accept there are cycling dangers out there, or just take up something less exciting like Bowls.

Personally I always accepted the dangers and their rarity, so at no time in my 70 cycling years did I wear a helmet. For most if it they hadn't been invented!
.

The perfect world will not arrive, but that does not mean settling for what I see around me!

Before some expensive and difficult lighthouses were built, officialdom argued that 'if such a thing was needed there, the Lord would have provided it himself'!

The small number of fatal accidents is no consolation to the bereaved, so if I am able to raise awareness I feel I should be doing that.

 

[Nealh]

For a mirror the best I use is a Briskmore 6cm bar end convex glass mirror, can be had on ebay or amazon. It is fully foldable and adjustable and have them on my main three bikes.

 

[flecc]

The small number of fatal accidents is no consolation to the bereaved, so if I am able to raise awareness I feel I should be doing that.

I'm all for that and my posts haven't in any way argued against it.

I'm arguing against the need to live on ones nerves as so many in here seem to do. Where's the pleasure in cycling in that state?
.

 

[Nealh]

I had a silly but expensive cateye 3/4cm one on my drop bar gravel bike and it is next to useless with a very poor field of view, the Briskmore is £16 - £21.99 for a pair and I can highly recommend them.

 

[matthewslack]

Three killed after collision between car and HGV

A man was arrested and a fourth man is in hospital following the crash in Argyll and Bute.

www.bbc.co.uk

That spate of accidents I mentioned earlier. These are just the fatal ones.