Commuter bike build advice

[stevefizz]

Hi

Im looking at commuting 15 miles each way to work, its all road and some hills. I borrowed a Crossfire from Halfords and apart from the price it would do the job.
I'm fairly fit 57 and 13 stone

I have a donor bike Timberline GT that i hope to use

BikePedia - Bicycle Value Guide

www.bikepedia.com

I have been looking at the 500w Voilamart rear hub with torque arms and a 36V 15A E-Bike Li-Ion Battery Pack Electric, 2A Charger
Does this sound okay?


Thanks
Steve

 

[sjpt]

500w nominal motor is not legal to ride without tax/insurance/etc.

500w kits may well be direct drive; there are lots of disadvantages of that for regular use; much less efficient use of battery is one, and you don't necessarily get the extra torque you need either. Also, they tend to be much heavier. Geared hub kits or crank drive kits are much better for normal use.

Max legal is 250w nominal/continuous power (like the Crossfire). They often produce around 500w max for hills.

Woosh is a good place for kits; excellent service. You may pay a little more than with bits of ebay. http://wooshbikes.co.uk/ They also do good value complete bikes.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I think those type of kits have a 250W legal mode and 500W unrestricted mode which is selected by joining or not joining some wires that come out of the control box. You could make a secret switch somewhere on the bike to toggle modes I guess. Direct drive hubs are less efficient and heavier but they are very simple and tend to be reliable and more abusable. When the battery runs out there will be more drag and the battery may run out sooner but the geared hub motors can be weaker and more problematic especially if the gears are plastic which is the case in some hubs but when the battery is flat they freewheel without drag or minimal drag and they are much lighter hubs. I think the main advantage of the direct drive hubs is for heavier riders they are often rated to higher weight limits. Also direct drive hubs accelerate quicker but I don't see the advantage there. I would always start cycling myself first to take initial strain of the motor and the pedals need to be in motion before the motor works anyway but in theory if you had a throttle controlled e-bike they would accelerate quicker.

Looking at the spec of your GT bike it has an 8 speed rear cassette but the violamart rear wheel hubs are freewheel based I think (apologies if there is a freehub version) and good quality freewheels go up to 7 speed, the 8 speed freewheels are of dubious quality in my opinion and don't operate well. You could fit a front hub motor but you have a suspension fork on the bike so there are a few issues. Personally I'd replace the front suspension with a set of rigid steel forks. You can normally pick up such forks for £15 or so on ebay and I'm thinking if the bike is 15 years old those front shocks must be end of life, poor seals etc. That way you can keep all the gearing of the bike as is. It really depends what you want to do with the bike though and where you want to ride it. The issue is if you fit a front motor hub you only have to change the forks but if you fit a rear motor hub, you'll need at the very least a 8 speed freewheel but you may not be happy with the poor shifting, regular adjustment and frequent freewheel replacement and may need to replace a lot more drivetrain components. Shimano don't make any freewheels beyond 7 speed as its not seen as competent engineering, the tolerances are too critical and its difficult to adjust derailleurs to operate with them well especially if the freewheel and hub has some wobble due to less than ideal machining of the thread on either (common).

Freewheels - 8 Speed | Freewheels | Transmission | SJS Cycles

Screw on fitting, NOT like a cassette

www.sjscycles.co.uk

 

[vfr400]

Those 500w Voilamart kits are not very good. They're very heavy and not very efficient, and they have terrible control systems. That's why they're cheap. Don't think that you get twice the power of a 250w system. My 250w motor will blow that into the weeds, especially if you bring in any hills.

The Woosh 48v rear hub-motor kit will give you everything you want for commuting. It's something better than the Crossfire because you get more power and speed, and the option of a throttle.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Reviews for teh violamart kits seem very positive, lots of comments about being well made and great value and being a direct drive brushless motor there aren't many moving parts. I can see the speed controller looks a basic throttle or twist control with a LED indicator for assistance level. For battery charge I guess you have to check the battery itself which will probably have a charge indicator button depending on the model you buy. It's basic but people seem to like it. I've seen a few e-bikes with water ingress on their LCD screens so perhaps a basic controller is not a bad thing but looks like you can buy a LCD screen as an option if you really need it. I think if I went for it I'd keep it simple though.

I don't know what lifespan you can expect from the hub motor but direct drive hub motors are the longest lasting of all types in theory and should be good for 10s of thousands of miles whether violamart achieve that I don't know. Violamart isn't the brand of the hub itself seems like it's the Chinese resellers or trade house brand don't know who the actual manufacturer is.

 

[stevefizz]

Thanks guys plenty to think about still and really appreciate the help

First off though apologies i think donor bike is 2003 not 2004

its a 7 speed rear cassette and has threaded forks

Thanks again
Steve

 

[vfr400]

Reviews for teh violamart kits seem very positive, lots of comments about being well made and great value and being a direct drive brushless motor there aren't many moving parts. I can see the speed controller looks a basic throttle or twist control with a LED indicator for assistance level. For battery charge I guess you have to check the battery itself which will probably have a charge indicator button depending on the model you buy. It's basic but people seem to like it. I've seen a few e-bikes with water ingress on their LCD screens so perhaps a basic controller is not a bad thing but looks like you can buy a LCD screen as an option if you really need it. I think if I went for it I'd keep it simple though.

I don't know what lifespan you can expect from the hub motor but direct drive hub motors are the longest lasting of all types in theory and should be good for 10s of thousands of miles whether violamart achieve that I don't know. Violamart isn't the brand of the hub itself seems like it's the Chinese resellers or trade house brand don't know who the actual manufacturer is.

Well, if you'd rather trust those reviews than independent people that have used them many times, go ahead and get one. Remember, theory is one thing, practice is something else. Do you think that having only one moving part has any bearing on how easily water gets in or how easily they burn out or blow the controller? It might be time to do some more internet reading.

 

[Woosh]

Hi

Im looking at commuting 15 miles each way to work, its all road and some hills. I borrowed a Crossfire from Halfords and apart from the price it would do the job.
I'm fairly fit 57 and 13 stone

I have a donor bike Timberline GT that i hope to use

BikePedia - Bicycle Value Guide

www.bikepedia.com

I have been looking at the 500w Voilamart rear hub with torque arms and a 36V 15A E-Bike Li-Ion Battery Pack Electric, 2A Charger
Does this sound okay?


Thanks
Steve

I would recommend the XF08C kit. You get about 60 miles from a full charge. It is much lighter and nicer than the kit you mentioned.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/product/uid-177-xf08c-17ah/xf08c-rear-hub-kit-with-17ah-battery

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Thanks guys plenty to think about still and really appreciate the help

First off though apologies i think donor bike is 2003 not 2004

its a 7 speed rear cassette and has threaded forks

Thanks again
Steve

That makes it a much easier upgrade to an e-bike. The high gearing will be a a little less as the smallest cog on a freewheel is probably 14T or possibly 13T where as on your original cassette I'm guessing 11T or 12T.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Well, if you'd rather trust those reviews than independent people that have used them many times, go ahead and get one. Remember, theory is one thing, practice is something else. Do you think that having only one moving part has any bearing on how easily water gets in or how easily they burn out or blow the controller? It might be time to do some more internet reading.

The reviews are independent and from verified purchasers.

Reviews: Voilamart 500W Electric Bicycle E Bike Conversion Motor 26" Front Wheel Thumb Throttle | eBay

www.ebay.co.uk

Generally for these heavier duty direct drive brushless motors reviews seem very positive. For the lighter geared hub motors the reviews are more hit and miss and the weight rating is half. These direct drive motors are rated to 200kg load but the geared hub motors are rated to 100kg.

I'm not seeing much negativity about these direct drive motors in fact some reviews are positively glowing with how surprisingly good they are and they seem to be lasting a long time. The motors are fully sealed from the elements and don't require maintenance in contrast people with geared hubs have had to replace gears on occasion and they do have to break the seal to replace those gears which if they don't refresh the seal may lead to water ingress. From one review it states the wheel sold as 500W, 1000W and 1500W are the same wheel and its only the controller supplied that varies so surely that is a lot of over-engineering on the 500W and 1000W wheels if capable of taking up to 1500W but only run as 500W or 1000W.

One of the reviews sounds like he has bought his 5th wheel but is writing in a very positive tone so clearly has been very pleased with all the previous wheels. Sounds like he is converting lots of bikes for friends or family.

Having read a lot of material I think the direct drive hub motors are a better option than the geared hub motors from these very cheap suppliers. Yes you lose some efficiency but they just seem to work better thanks to their simplicity. Clearly the wheels are very heavy and you probably lose 20-30% of the range compared to using the same battery with a geared hub motor plus cycling with a discharged battery has more drag but overall seems a very good option for those who want a e-bike on a budget. Also a huge amount of low cost spares available from ebay and aliexpress if you do break the controller or wear out the throttle controller etc. Upgrade options too.

 

[Woosh]

I'm not seeing much negativity about these direct drive motors in fact some reviews are positively glowing with how surprisingly good they are and they seem to be lasting a long time. The motors are fully sealed from the elements and don't require maintenance in contrast people with geared hubs have had to replace gears on occasion and they do have to break the seal to replace those gears which if they don't refresh the seal may lead to water ingress. From one review it states the wheel sold as 500W, 1000W and 1500W are the same wheel and its only the controller supplied that varies so surely that is a lot of over-engineering on the 500W and 1000W wheels if capable of taking up to 1500W but only run as 500W or 1000W.

did you use one of those direct drive kits or ride a bike fitted with one of those yourself?

 

[Nealh]

D/D hubs are ok if you know what you are doing, invariably it means a very good battery that can handle the extra amps required to make them come alive.
You need to try one up a hill and then try one with no power just in case you were to run out of battery.

Most issues with geared hubs result in either over current abuse or incorrect installation allowing water ingress, I have opened my various hubs a few times and never had an issue with resealing the cover and over the 5 years no issue with water ingress at all . My first hub was Bafang CST in a mtb and this was use for mud plugging off road and in the wet never had an issue with water ingress, the hub now is used on my all year round commute/town bike in all weathers still o water ingress.

Bike producers like to get their hub models down to as cheap a price as they can, if the D/D was a totally viable option they would use them but they don't. Small lighter geared hubs are king for most hub bikes.

On this forum a few have tried and used them one or two (maybe more) continue and use them. Majority prefer the lighter geared hub, selecting the correct rpm and size /weight for their needs. Most will accept up to 1000w occasionally for hills without to much issue if it they aren't abused. In time you will learn lighter and more thrifty hub motors use less battery wh and increases range ability, choosing a motor/kit is down to what you are trying to gain. Reliability, range, power , speed , hill climbing , off road, commuting or touring etc,etc, you can't have it all in one hub so you choose the best option that will cover most of the basis.

 

[vfr400]

The reviews are independent and from verified purchasers.

Reviews: Voilamart 500W Electric Bicycle E Bike Conversion Motor 26" Front Wheel Thumb Throttle | eBay

www.ebay.co.uk

Generally for these heavier duty direct drive brushless motors reviews seem very positive. For the lighter geared hub motors the reviews are more hit and miss and the weight rating is half. These direct drive motors are rated to 200kg load but the geared hub motors are rated to 100kg.

I'm not seeing much negativity about these direct drive motors in fact some reviews are positively glowing with how surprisingly good they are and they seem to be lasting a long time. The motors are fully sealed from the elements and don't require maintenance in contrast people with geared hubs have had to replace gears on occasion and they do have to break the seal to replace those gears which if they don't refresh the seal may lead to water ingress. From one review it states the wheel sold as 500W, 1000W and 1500W are the same wheel and its only the controller supplied that varies so surely that is a lot of over-engineering on the 500W and 1000W wheels if capable of taking up to 1500W but only run as 500W or 1000W.

One of the reviews sounds like he has bought his 5th wheel but is writing in a very positive tone so clearly has been very pleased with all the previous wheels. Sounds like he is converting lots of bikes for friends or family.

Having read a lot of material I think the direct drive hub motors are a better option than the geared hub motors from these very cheap suppliers. Yes you lose some efficiency but they just seem to work better thanks to their simplicity. Clearly the wheels are very heavy and you probably lose 20-30% of the range compared to using the same battery with a geared hub motor plus cycling with a discharged battery has more drag but overall seems a very good option for those who want a e-bike on a budget. Also a huge amount of low cost spares available from ebay and aliexpress if you do break the controller or wear out the throttle controller etc. Upgrade options too.

I don't know where to start. You don't seem to understand that some of us have been working with these things for many years. It's true that if you live in a dry climate, where there are no hills or traffic, and yo want to travel at a constant 20 mph, those 500w Voilamart kits offer a lot, but I can tell you that they can't hold a candle to a Woosh 48v rear motor kit for normal commuting on British roads.

All I can say is try one for a few months, then come back and tell us whether you still think it's so great.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I don't get the dry climate bit, I see no information anywhere that these direct drive motors are more vulnerable to water ingress when I look around the main issue is people with geared hubs replacing those gears and not sealing them properly afterwards causing water ingress. If anything it seems like direct drive hub motors are the least vulnerable to water ingress compared to geared hubs and mid-mount bottom bracket motors but I realise quality of manufacturing is a factor for any type of motor.

Whatever hub I go with it would have to be on the front. I would like to keep the high quality freehub based gearing on the back and don't want to put a motor hub on it. I'm a heavy rider and ride in a more upright style so most of my weight is on the rear. To be honest I also want the option of fitting and removing the motor hub from the front relatively easily maybe even swapping the e-bike components to different bikes occasionally.

I'd read some info regarding heavier riders on e-bikes and the front seems a more logical placement for the motor. There is less issue with the front wheel tyre slipping because of the greater weight of the rider, you have a 2 wheel drive system, the heavier steering is less of an issue for a larger rider, it places the weight better on the bike proportionally. You keep the stronger better freehub gearing in the rear suitable for a heavier rider. It evens tyre wear more. Punctures are easier to deal with and heavier riders tend to have more punctures on the rear wheel in my experience. Even if I'm debating between between geared and direct drive hub motors I definitely don't want a rear hub motor or anything with a freewheel especially if my weight does prematurely wear out the gears of the hub and I have to replace them.

 

[jokskot]

I have fitted a Voilamart 250w 36v front wheel drive to a normal mountain bike. The Voilamart offering offers excellent value for money (a little over £110 to include new brakes, control box, twist hand throttle and cadence sensor). If i was to convert an existing bike in future I would take the same approach.

 

[vfr400]

I have fitted a Voilamart 250w 36v front wheel drive to a normal mountain bike. The Voilamart offering offers excellent value for money (a little over £110 to include new brakes, control box, twist hand throttle and cadence sensor). If i was to convert an existing bike in future I would take the same approach.

The 250w motor is better than the 500w one. It's about equivalent to the kits that were around 10 years ago, which some of us started with and were happy with at the time. If you're strapped for cash, they are an adequate solution to getting your bike electrified, and they should give you years of trouble-free service if you install correctly.

It's only when you compare them with modern systems that the shortcomings show up. Personally, I think it's worth paying the extra £75 for a Yose Power kit, which has a much better control system. The Voilamart only gives max power when you pedal, which is not very efficient and inconvenient when you need to ride slowly. You can use the throttle as a work-around, if you don't mind the inconvenience, but on a long ride, that's tedious and you'll soon be looking to fabricate some sort of cruise control. That's if you don't break the weak plastic end-stops in the throttle when you accidentally hit a pothole. IMHO, full width plastic throttles are not suitable for electric bicycles. I'd change it to a half-width or thumb-throttle.

I'm in no way against the Voilamart kits. It's just that there are much better solutions if you can afford it. You have to ride Voilamart and Yose back to back to get the true picture. You will see that the Voilamart is crude and rough by comparaison. The 500w Voilamart kit IMHO is several steps down from their 250w one. Again, they work, but that's about all you can say about them - that's until you destroy your cheap battery or blow the controller.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I have fitted a Voilamart 250w 36v front wheel drive to a normal mountain bike. The Voilamart offering offers excellent value for money (a little over £110 to include new brakes, control box, twist hand throttle and cadence sensor). If i was to convert an existing bike in future I would take the same approach.

The small violamart hub motors of 250W appear to be direct drive too and have a much lower weight limit of 100kg compared to 200kg for the larger hub. Also only 15Nm torque compared to 45Nm for the larger direct drive hub. If I didn't go for the larger hub I would definitely need a geared hub for the extra weight capacity and increased torque. With the bike weight, battery and motor plus myself I'm going to be well over the 100kg limit but well within the 200kg limit. I can see the 250W hub motor being a good option for a lighter rider but my mountain bike is about 17kg, the battery maybe 4-6kg depending on capacity and it looks like the front wheel could be 3-6kg for the hub/wheel. That could be 25-30kg leaving only 70-75kg for the rider which I'm well over. They don't clarify how the load capacity is worked out just total load of 100kg or 200kg so I'm going to assume that is the whole load for both wheels rather than per wheel. 200kg per wheel would be impressive so I'm pretty sure that isn't what they mean.

The twist hand throttle is that just a selector for the different assistance modes which light up on the display or is that a fully variable throttle? How do you deselect this throttle when you go with the legal 250W pedal assist mode or do they work together i.e. pedal fast and maximum throttle to get maximum assistance?

 

[Bonzo Banana]

The 250w motor is better than the 500w one. It's about equivalent to the kits that were around 10 years ago, which some of us started with and were happy with at the time. If you're strapped for cash, they are an adequate solution to getting your bike electrified, and they should give you years of trouble-free service if you install correctly.

It's only when you compare them with modern systems that the shortcomings show up. Personally, I think it's worth paying the extra £75 for a Yose Power kit, which has a much better control system. The Voilamart only gives max power when you pedal, which is not very efficient and inconvenient when you need to ride slowly. You can use the throttle as a work-around, if you don't mind the inconvenience, but on a long ride, that's tedious and you'll soon be looking to fabricate some sort of cruise control. That's if you don't break the weak plastic end-stops in the throttle when you accidentally hit a pothole. IMHO, full width plastic throttles are not suitable for electric bicycles. I'd change it to a half-width or thumb-throttle.

I'm in no way against the Voilamart kits. It's just that there are much better solutions if you can afford it. You have to ride Voilamart and Yose back to back to get the true picture. You will see that the Voilamart is crude and rough by comparaison. The 500w Voilamart kit IMHO is several steps down from their 250w one. Again, they work, but that's about all you can say about them - that's until you destroy your cheap battery or blow the controller.

The small 250W violamart hubs don't appear to be geared so are very low torque, I think you can also use them with a 350W controller which maybe takes them up to 20Nm but still not very powerful. I can see some benefits for lighter riders but those certainly aren't for me they seem a worst option than a geared hub motor.

 

[vfr400]

The small 250W violamart hubs don't appear to be geared

Maybe to you, but not to the rest of us.

 

[vfr400]

The twist hand throttle is that just a selector for the different assistance modes which light up on the display or is that a fully variable throttle? How do you deselect this throttle when you go with the legal 250W pedal assist mode or do they work together i.e. pedal fast and maximum throttle to get maximum assistance?

It's a normal throttle that works independently from and takes precedence over the pedal sensor when you twist it.